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Melanson: the jury is out...

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Old
04-01-2009, 11:13 PM
  #201
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LOL @ this thread

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04-01-2009, 11:16 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I'll stick to my sources if you don't mind... Frank...
Look, I don't think much of you. Your arguments, I mean all of them, have been the same type of speculation I just did. If you're going to base your arguments on nothing, then you should also expect people asking for more than your word on the fact you're a goaltending genius who knows the ins and outs of the Habs goaltending situation. If I wanted that kind of logic, I'd learn the Bible by heart.

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04-02-2009, 11:26 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Wasn't he also your captain?

And goalie?
Correct back in 1951, Asterix (his real name is Jean Marois) was starting goaltender and Captain of the Quebec Aces

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04-02-2009, 10:19 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
Correct back in 1951, Asterix (his real name is Jean Marois) was starting goaltender and Captain of the Quebec Aces
Nice try but... wrong.

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04-02-2009, 10:27 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Nice try but... wrong.
He meant Red Light Racicot, just signed by the Habs to a 1 year 6.5 million contract, congrats!

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Old
04-04-2009, 09:16 PM
  #206
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Hot Stove mentioned tonight Patrick Roy will be by his phone listening for coaching opportunities this summer. Could this be our answer to our goaltender coaching woes here in Montreal?

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04-04-2009, 11:21 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by GNick42 View Post
Hot Stove mentioned tonight Patrick Roy will be by his phone listening for coaching opportunities this summer. Could this be our answer to our goaltender coaching woes here in Montreal?
I'd take Roy as an assistant coach for sure, including to help our goalies!

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04-04-2009, 11:58 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNick42 View Post
Hot Stove mentioned tonight Patrick Roy will be by his phone listening for coaching opportunities this summer. Could this be our answer to our goaltender coaching woes here in Montreal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I'd take Roy as an assistant coach for sure, including to help our goalies!
With Patrick's ego, I'd be very surprised if Roy isn't looking at becoming a head coach, not a goalie coach. A member of the Hot Stove mentioned that an opportunity might become available with the Avalanche.

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04-05-2009, 12:00 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
With Patrick's ego, I'd be very surprised if Roy isn't looking at becoming a head coach, not a goalie coach. A member of the Hot Stove mentioned that an opportunity might become available with the Avalanche.
That's a possibility. I wouldn't give him the head coaching job in Montreal though. He would sure help Price though...

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04-05-2009, 12:44 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
That's a possibility. I wouldn't give him the head coaching job in Montreal though. He would sure help Price though...
I wouldn't either, but no doubt his experience would be a big plus with our goaltenders.

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04-05-2009, 12:50 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Melanson was and still is. I'd still make the switch. I don't know if the change back to Price's old style has to do with Melanson himself, from higher up or from Price who said "screw that, I'm going back to what worked in the past", but there's a change in his style.
Well, well...

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04-19-2009, 02:19 PM
  #212
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Well, well...
You were saying?

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04-19-2009, 05:27 PM
  #213
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When Asterix first posted this thread, I found his analysis interesting, but my personal jury was out; I was firmly in the convential wisdom camp that Melanson was an excellent goalie coach.

After contemplating it, and talking with a few knowledgeable people (including a talented goaltender), and in particular hearing Millen(?)'s comments on CBC during the first game, I'm totally in agreement now.

Melanson seems to be able to make goalies very good. Unfortunately, that seems to apply to goalies that started out exceptional as well.

Millen commented that he talked to Melanson, who told him he's been trying to get Price to stay in the blue ice and not challenge the shooter so much because he's so big.

The GWG of game one should have been stopped by Price. He was too far back in his net, and he dropped too early. Same problem for one of the goals the second game.

Who is the best goaltender in the last 15 years, hands down? Brodeur. Does he play a butterfly style? No, he's mostly a stand-up goalie. It'd be great if Price could spend a bit of time in the summer practicing with him.

Melanson must go.

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04-19-2009, 11:06 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
When Asterix first posted this thread, I found his analysis interesting, but my personal jury was out; I was firmly in the convential wisdom camp that Melanson was an excellent goalie coach.

After contemplating it, and talking with a few knowledgeable people (including a talented goaltender), and in particular hearing Millen(?)'s comments on CBC during the first game, I'm totally in agreement now.

Melanson seems to be able to make goalies very good. Unfortunately, that seems to apply to goalies that started out exceptional as well.

Millen commented that he talked to Melanson, who told him he's been trying to get Price to stay in the blue ice and not challenge the shooter so much because he's so big.

The GWG of game one should have been stopped by Price. He was too far back in his net, and he dropped too early. Same problem for one of the goals the second game.

Who is the best goaltender in the last 15 years, hands down? Brodeur. Does he play a butterfly style? No, he's mostly a stand-up goalie. It'd be great if Price could spend a bit of time in the summer practicing with him.

Melanson must go.
Thank you Ishmael, I will take this as a compliment. The problem on forums like this one is that there's no way to differentiate between a 12 year old school boy and a man who's seen, played and coached hockey. I don't necessarily blame people for not noticing what I've been claiming regarding Melanson as I simply don't think that they're looking at what I'm studying and observing and afterall, we're all entitled to our opinion. I'm just against those who are making fun of the concept as it's clearly a way to mask their lack of knowledge on the topic in many cases.

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04-27-2009, 09:04 PM
  #215
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Great quote that I'd like to share:

Quote:
But, both he and Gainey have some extremely important issues to address.

For the GM: Is Price being taught properly? People who’ve seen him a lot more than I do say they don’t recognize the way he plays now, compared to how he played before he got to the big club. At his best, Price never moves more than six inches to make a save. Now, he’s deep in his crease and always looking around – even after making a stop. You wonder if he knows where the puck is. Why is that happening? Why has he regressed? Gainey must make certain he has the right man teaching his star pupil.

Source...
Very eloquently said I'd say, without getting in as much details as some of us have in this thread!

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04-27-2009, 09:18 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post

Millen commented that he talked to Melanson, who told him he's been trying to get Price to stay in the blue ice and not challenge the shooter so much because he's so big.

Melanson must go.
This is where people are single minded. Challenging the shooter is a tightrope and not appropriate on all plays - especially when a far side pass is an option.

Knowledgable observers will note that Price cheats on the short side and gets beat regularly on the farside pass because he can't track the play.

It's not as simple as right and wrong, challenge or not, it's reading the play and challenging at the right time. These decisions are left to the goalie's ability to read the play.

Melanson is one of the top coaches in his field, criticizing him for Price's poor play is slothful thinking.

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Old
04-27-2009, 09:22 PM
  #217
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Didn't we keep hearing how Price still talks to Kolzig for some tips? I mean who's coaching the kid? How about Kolzig telling him one thing, Melanson another, and himself thinks something else? Could it be enough to mix a young kid up?

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04-27-2009, 09:37 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
Melanson is one of the top coaches in his field, criticizing him for Price's poor play is slothful thinking.
I would like to know how we know that? What are his real success stories? Theo? I mean this kid before he left was all mixed up and was never the goalie he once was. I mean it's one thing to put him on top but as a great coach, shouldn't you be able to keep him there or at least near it? Strangely, Theo looked great again after a long time when he started to work with Jeff Hackett.

Then on the Hackett subject, is Melanson really the responsible for his solid play? Let's take the 2 seasons where he had the most games with Habs and Chicago

Habs: Save% of .914, .914.........G.A.A. 2.27, 2.40
Hawks: Save% .927, .917...........G.A.A. 2.16, 2.20

So surely, we have to compare both teams to see how strong or weak they both were.

Hawks 96-97: 81 points
Hawks 97-98: 73 points
Habs 98-99: 75 points
Habs 99-00: 83 points

So can we say that they were equally bad? So isn't it possible that Hackett started to become a better goalie BEFORE he met Melanson? Seems to me that it was the case.

How about Huet? Well before he met Melanson, in 03-04, he played 42 games with a Save% of .907, G.A.A. 2.43 with a team that finished with 81 points. While his stats with the Habs were with teams that were better while having a save % of .916 and worst G.A.A. But then people hated Huet towards the end, as far as I'm concerned Melanson was still working with him, Aebisher looked as bad as we've never seen him and so on....

So Melanson is certainly not the worst, but how did he obtained the best goalie coach in the business again?

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Old
04-27-2009, 09:44 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I would like to know how we know that? What are his real success stories? Theo? I mean this kid before he left was all mixed up and was never the goalie he once was.
2 years ago the Habs had an NHL all-star goaltender, AHL all-star goaltender, ECHL all-star goaltender, CHL goaltender of the year, Calder MVP all at once under the tutilage of Melanson.

Find me another coach who has done that and let's hire him.
No, wait that person only exists in Roland Melanson.

This thread is beyond crazy.

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04-27-2009, 10:39 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
2 years ago the Habs had an NHL all-star goaltender, AHL all-star goaltender, ECHL all-star goaltender, CHL goaltender of the year, Calder MVP all at once under the tutilage of Melanson.

Find me another coach who has done that and let's hire him.
No, wait that person only exists in Roland Melanson.

This thread is beyond crazy.
I would also love to meet the goalie coach that took a Hart and a Vezina trophy winner into something that is a #2 goalie in the playoffs behind a rookie who played 6 regular season games. The NHL all-star goalie into a 2nd round pick worth, and also don't mention the fact that the ECHL all-star goalie was turned into a much better goalie 'cause of a guy named Patrick Roy who worked with him a whole lot. Do we also know his real contribution to Carey's CHL year and even his Calder Cup? Can we also think that Kolzig's work has also something to do with that? It's great that you took 1 year to demonstrate how great he is in the 10ish years he's been with the team.

Again, I'm not saying he's the worst. But he's not the best as some would like to portray it. By the way, how many OTHER goalie coaches do we really know in this league? Did you really do the exercice you're talking about with all the goalies coaches in the league?

See at point, somebody is wrong here. How come Gainey is not using Melanson as he once was? Seems that Melanson was seen less and less around the team since Gainey took over? How is Gainey able to not use the best goalie coach of this league when their goalies are struggling?

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04-27-2009, 11:00 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I would like to know how we know that? What are his real success stories? Theo? I mean this kid before he left was all mixed up and was never the goalie he once was. I mean it's one thing to put him on top but as a great coach, shouldn't you be able to keep him there or at least near it? Strangely, Theo looked great again after a long time when he started to work with Jeff Hackett.

Then on the Hackett subject, is Melanson really the responsible for his solid play? Let's take the 2 seasons where he had the most games with Habs and Chicago

Habs: Save% of .914, .914.........G.A.A. 2.27, 2.40
Hawks: Save% .927, .917...........G.A.A. 2.16, 2.20

So surely, we have to compare both teams to see how strong or weak they both were.

Hawks 96-97: 81 points
Hawks 97-98: 73 points
Habs 98-99: 75 points
Habs 99-00: 83 points

So can we say that they were equally bad? So isn't it possible that Hackett started to become a better goalie BEFORE he met Melanson? Seems to me that it was the case.

How about Huet? Well before he met Melanson, in 03-04, he played 42 games with a Save% of .907, G.A.A. 2.43 with a team that finished with 81 points. While his stats with the Habs were with teams that were better while having a save % of .916 and worst G.A.A. But then people hated Huet towards the end, as far as I'm concerned Melanson was still working with him, Aebisher looked as bad as we've never seen him and so on....

So Melanson is certainly not the worst, but how did he obtained the best goalie coach in the business again?
Exactly. Melanson is not a bad goalie coach, he simply can't teach anything else but the butterfly. He can take a goalie from one point and improve him somewhat, but that's where it stops.

In Price's case, he took a goalie who's had success at every level that he's played at with the hybrid style and made him a butterfly goalie. This is wrong! This is messing with what works. Had Melanson gotten Brodeur at a younger age, I bet you anything that he would have changed his style as that's exactly what he's done with Price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I would also love to meet the goalie coach that took a Hart and a Vezina trophy winner into something that is a #2 goalie in the playoffs behind a rookie who played 6 regular season games. The NHL all-star goalie into a 2nd round pick worth, and also don't mention the fact that the ECHL all-star goalie was turned into a much better goalie 'cause of a guy named Patrick Roy who worked with him a whole lot. Do we also know his real contribution to Carey's CHL year and even his Calder Cup? Can we also think that Kolzig's work has also something to do with that? It's great that you took 1 year to demonstrate how great he is in the 10ish years he's been with the team.

Again, I'm not saying he's the worst. But he's not the best as some would like to portray it. By the way, how many OTHER goalie coaches do we really know in this league? Did you really do the exercice you're talking about with all the goalies coaches in the league?

See at point, somebody is wrong here. How come Gainey is not using Melanson as he once was? Seems that Melanson was seen less and less around the team since Gainey took over? How is Gainey able to not use the best goalie coach of this league when their goalies are struggling?
Well said, especially the last paragraph. More and more people are noticing it. Yet, this thread has been alive for quite some time...

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04-27-2009, 11:38 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post

In Price's case, he took a goalie who's had success at every level that he's played at with the hybrid style and made him a butterfly goalie. This is wrong! This is messing with what works. Had Melanson gotten Brodeur at a younger age, I bet you anything that he would have changed his style as that's exactly what he's done with Price.


Carey Price (2005), G
Talented young goalie was forced to stop a player on the first save of the game .. displays complete confidence in the way he handles himself .. comfortable out of the net and handling the puck .. swallowed up a point shot .. consistently plays very deep in the goal .. steers shots in to the corners .. quick feet allow him to be especially strong down low .. gave up a juicy rebound and was down and out as the opposition scored .. sprawled out and stacked the pads on a hard rushing forward .. communicates with his defense .. cat-like reflexes and recovers quickly when he goes down .. flashed the glove to rob a player late in a time game .. stands his ground tight to the post when a forward comes off the wing.

http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/cont...960&CID=332328

"He helped me a lot with that," Price noted. "He's (also) helped me with my positioning; challenging the shooter in crowds and a lot with staying on your feet a little bit more. He's helped me a lot overall."

http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/cont...960&CID=361736
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you sincerely think Melanson is telling him to drop on his knees more often and what not? How do you know? All I see is a goalie going back to his old habits because his confidence is low.

That said, Melanson needs to tell him to stop being so deep in the net when he's facing point shots.

The kid is ****ing 21 years old, give him time to grow and have a tougher mental game.

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04-28-2009, 11:17 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Carey Price (2005), G
Talented young goalie was forced to stop a player on the first save of the game .. displays complete confidence in the way he handles himself .. comfortable out of the net and handling the puck .. swallowed up a point shot .. consistently plays very deep in the goal .. steers shots in to the corners .. quick feet allow him to be especially strong down low .. gave up a juicy rebound and was down and out as the opposition scored .. sprawled out and stacked the pads on a hard rushing forward .. communicates with his defense .. cat-like reflexes and recovers quickly when he goes down .. flashed the glove to rob a player late in a time game .. stands his ground tight to the post when a forward comes off the wing.

http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/cont...960&CID=332328

"He helped me a lot with that," Price noted. "He's (also) helped me with my positioning; challenging the shooter in crowds and a lot with staying on your feet a little bit more. He's helped me a lot overall."

http://mckeenshockey.rivals.com/cont...960&CID=361736
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you sincerely think Melanson is telling him to drop on his knees more often and what not? How do you know? All I see is a goalie going back to his old habits because his confidence is low.

That said, Melanson needs to tell him to stop being so deep in the net when he's facing point shots.

The kid is ****ing 21 years old, give him time to grow and have a tougher mental game.
I don't know who that McKeen is, but I've followed his development since we drafted him in 2005 and that source of yours it totally off. I'll take MY word on it as I've personally watched him and make my assessment on what I've seen.

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04-28-2009, 11:35 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Great quote that I'd like to share:



Very eloquently said I'd say, without getting in as much details as some of us have in this thread!
I agree with you completely on the Price thing. I've found it so clear that his style has changed since he came up to the Habs. But at the same time, you can't really denounce other people for coming up with their own sources stating this and that about Price's apparent attitude when you haven't shared your source or what exactly you have heard. You may have earlier in the thread but I haven't read back more than a couple pages. Just a thought, if you want people to agree with you.

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04-28-2009, 11:54 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
I agree with you completely on the Price thing. I've found it so clear that his style has changed since he came up to the Habs. But at the same time, you can't really denounce other people for coming up with their own sources stating this and that about Price's apparent attitude when you haven't shared your source or what exactly you have heard. You may have earlier in the thread but I haven't read back more than a couple pages. Just a thought, if you want people to agree with you.
The first article by that McKeen guy dates of September 17, 2004... I think that it speaks for itself. The second one used by that Chomsky member to try to prove his point is not only from December 7, 2004, but the quote he's using isn't even talking about Melanson, but rather Olaf Kolzig who owns the Try-City Americans and helped Price along the way.

For those reasons, in all due respect, I think that I'm fully in my rights here to denounce those so-called sources used by that member.

You are correct that I've fully explained and described in length in this very thread the reasons and provided the proofs of my allegations. They are there to read and easy to find with a simple quick search.

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