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Old
12-08-2009, 06:34 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by ESunlin View Post
I'm pissed at the Tigers right now. Grandy IS the Tigers. It is just like when Pudge left. ****ing idiots- it's like trading Zetterberg away.
Not quite. It's like Zetterberg having a 40 point season and a -25, THEN trading him away.

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12-08-2009, 06:47 PM
  #327
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I'm talking more in the patriotic/loyalty/community type stuff than I am skill level...

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12-08-2009, 10:52 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by ESunlin View Post
I'm talking more in the patriotic/loyalty/community type stuff than I am skill level...
Leyland had several quotes in the paper all year about how he wanted Granderson to drive the gaps more and not just swing for the fences. Granderson didn't listen. If he had, he might still be a Tiger. His refusal to play gap-to-gap and his wretched average against lefties forced DD's hand. He couldn't afford to pay big bucks to a platoon OF.

It's too bad they couldn't keep him around, but what they got back might be more valuable - possibly a lot more valuable. Possibly a lot less, but that's the job a GM has, and if this trade goes south over the next 3 years or so, I'd expect it to cost DD his job.

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12-09-2009, 02:01 PM
  #329
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The Tigers will not be able to replace the class and community presence of Granderson with anyone in that deal. To the city of Detroit, that is the biggest loss regarding the trade.

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12-10-2009, 09:48 AM
  #330
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Looks like the Astros signed Lyon, 3y/$15m, so there's another guy off the Tigers board. I liked Lyon but three years is about a year too long. And with the relievers we just picked up in the trade and the guys we have coming up through the system...well, I'd rather wait and see if we can spend the money elsewhere.

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12-10-2009, 10:05 AM
  #331
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In a different year, that would have been about right and the Tigers would have been able to afford it. Just too much dead money on the books this year. Oh well, sandwich pick here we come! (Pick a college outfielder that's close to ML ready, preferably a lefty with power.)

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01-14-2010, 04:10 PM
  #332
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http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/0...-valverde.html

Tigers sign Valverde. 2y $14m with an unknown option for the 3rd year.

So they essentially trade Rodney and about $3 mil over 2 years for Valverde and dropped something like 15-20 slots in the 1st round.

Valverde seems like a high quality closer, but I do wonder if the Tigs had to spend that much since no other team was really bidding. It's not my money though.

Now they'll try to trade Bobby Seay and pick up a left handed bat. I wouldn't mind seeing them take a flier on Ankiel but Boras is looking for WAY too much money, so maybe a guy like Randy Winn. He could lead off, maybe.

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01-14-2010, 06:25 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/0...-valverde.html

Tigers sign Valverde. 2y $14m with an unknown option for the 3rd year.

So they essentially trade Rodney and about $3 mil over 2 years for Valverde and dropped something like 15-20 slots in the 1st round.

Valverde seems like a high quality closer, but I do wonder if the Tigs had to spend that much since no other team was really bidding. It's not my money though.

Now they'll try to trade Bobby Seay and pick up a left handed bat. I wouldn't mind seeing them take a flier on Ankiel but Boras is looking for WAY too much money, so maybe a guy like Randy Winn. He could lead off, maybe.
yeah, I don't really get this signing. If it's a youth movement, go with the TONS of young bullpen arms we already have in the system for cheap. If we were going to spend $7m per season, maybe we could have just spent $6m for Rodney.

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01-15-2010, 12:16 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
yeah, I don't really get this signing. If it's a youth movement, go with the TONS of young bullpen arms we already have in the system for cheap. If we were going to spend $7m per season, maybe we could have just spent $6m for Rodney.
Rodney wanted 3 years or more, they got Valverde for 2. I think Dombrowski panicked when he saw the Pirates were about to get Dotel. That tells me that he had been hoping for one of these guys to be there in 3 or 4 weeks to be scooped up dirt cheap.

Maybe this will turn into a summer trade that nets the Tigs some quality prospects. Or maybe he'll be a shutdown guy who's worth the money. Or maybe not. We'll see. They must have really liked him a lot to spend that much money.

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01-15-2010, 01:00 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Rodney wanted 3 years or more, they got Valverde for 2. I think Dombrowski panicked when he saw the Pirates were about to get Dotel. That tells me that he had been hoping for one of these guys to be there in 3 or 4 weeks to be scooped up dirt cheap.

Maybe this will turn into a summer trade that nets the Tigs some quality prospects. Or maybe he'll be a shutdown guy who's worth the money. Or maybe not. We'll see. They must have really liked him a lot to spend that much money.
Kevin Gregg's still on the market, though, isn't he? Considering the price tag, I think I'd have just went the extra year on Rodney. At $6m, that's still only $4m more on three years than Valverde's getting over 2 years. This isn't to bash Valverde, the guy's put up some great numbers, but I'm just not sold on how many games he's even going to get the opportunity to close.

And now it's rumored that we're after Johnny Damon.

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01-15-2010, 08:34 AM
  #336
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Kevin Gregg's still on the market, though, isn't he? Considering the price tag, I think I'd have just went the extra year on Rodney. At $6m, that's still only $4m more on three years than Valverde's getting over 2 years. This isn't to bash Valverde, the guy's put up some great numbers, but I'm just not sold on how many games he's even going to get the opportunity to close.

And now it's rumored that we're after Johnny Damon.
I think they realized that Rodney's 37 of 38 saves last season was a statistical fluke, given his rotten performance in non-save situations and tie games. And they had a chance to get a guy that's been one of the top closers in baseball the last few years aside from the Riveras and the K-Rods.

I'm very glad they didn't throw money away on Gregg. His ERA was even higher than Rodney's (4.40) at 4.72. I checked out Fangraphs on all these guys, and while I know it's not definitive they do a lot of work on determining a player's real-life dollar value for a given year. Rodney's 2009 season was valued at $1.4 million. Gregg's was actually -$1.3 million. Valverde's was $3.0 million, and that was in a year where his save opportunities were way down. In his best year he was valued at $5.6 million.

What does all this mean? I think it means that Dombrowski was not overly impressed with Rodney's closing skills despite his 2009 season, or because of it depending on how you look at it. I think it means that he was looking hard at Dotel as a cheaper alternative and when that fell through, he saw Zumaya and Perry blowing saves for him all year and driving even more fans away from the ballpark. And he bit the bullet on Valverde.

Valverde's ERA is going to go up moving from the NL to the AL. The NL Central is just about as bad as the AL Central, but the East and West hit a lot better in the AL than the NL. Still, I can understand why this move was made. Time will tell if it's the right decision.

I also think that the Valverde move combined with this possible Johnny Damon interest could mean that either the Tigers are worried that trading Granderson has turned the fans off enough to really hurt their revenue, or it shows just how much they thought Granderson was a platoon player that can't hit lefties and never will. And it shows how much EJax's 2nd half must have scared them.

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01-15-2010, 12:22 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
I think they realized that Rodney's 37 of 38 saves last season was a statistical fluke, given his rotten performance in non-save situations and tie games. And they had a chance to get a guy that's been one of the top closers in baseball the last few years aside from the Riveras and the K-Rods.

I'm very glad they didn't throw money away on Gregg. His ERA was even higher than Rodney's (4.40) at 4.72. I checked out Fangraphs on all these guys, and while I know it's not definitive they do a lot of work on determining a player's real-life dollar value for a given year. Rodney's 2009 season was valued at $1.4 million. Gregg's was actually -$1.3 million. Valverde's was $3.0 million, and that was in a year where his save opportunities were way down. In his best year he was valued at $5.6 million.

What does all this mean? I think it means that Dombrowski was not overly impressed with Rodney's closing skills despite his 2009 season, or because of it depending on how you look at it. I think it means that he was looking hard at Dotel as a cheaper alternative and when that fell through, he saw Zumaya and Perry blowing saves for him all year and driving even more fans away from the ballpark. And he bit the bullet on Valverde.

Valverde's ERA is going to go up moving from the NL to the AL. The NL Central is just about as bad as the AL Central, but the East and West hit a lot better in the AL than the NL. Still, I can understand why this move was made. Time will tell if it's the right decision.

I also think that the Valverde move combined with this possible Johnny Damon interest could mean that either the Tigers are worried that trading Granderson has turned the fans off enough to really hurt their revenue, or it shows just how much they thought Granderson was a platoon player that can't hit lefties and never will. And it shows how much EJax's 2nd half must have scared them.
I can get the possible motives for the move but I just don't agree with it. But I also don't expect us to contend this year in any real way, shape or form. Maybe if everyone else in the central implodes again but I doubt it. So dumping $7m per on a closer seems like an unnecessary cost to me when we could go a bit cheaper and try turning the job over to one of the kids around midseason and seeing if someone runs with it.

A guy like Gregg is clearly not in Valverde's league but he should also come significantly cheaper (around $3m per is what I'd want to spend). If we're looking at one of the kids developing into a closer in the near future, I'd like to take that extra $4m per season and go shopping for a big, left handed bat next season.

What signing Valverde could also be signalling is that the Tigers don't view Weinhardt/Satterwite/Schlereth/etc. as being nearly as ready as they say. If they think any of them are a minimum of two years away, signing Valverde makes a lot more sense.

And I think you hit the Tigers thoughts on Granderson/EJax on the nose. After all, problems hitting lefties isn't anything new for Granderson and EJax has always been a guy with more potential than performance. I expect Jackson to have a good season just because he moved to the NL but I won't be surprised if Grandy is exposed a bit for not being the player everyone thought he was - though the friendly confines of NY's stadium certainly won't hurt his power numbers.

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01-15-2010, 12:29 PM
  #338
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I can get the possible motives for the move but I just don't agree with it. But I also don't expect us to contend this year in any real way, shape or form. Maybe if everyone else in the central implodes again but I doubt it. So dumping $7m per on a closer seems like an unnecessary cost to me when we could go a bit cheaper and try turning the job over to one of the kids around midseason and seeing if someone runs with it.

A guy like Gregg is clearly not in Valverde's league but he should also come significantly cheaper (around $3m per is what I'd want to spend). If we're looking at one of the kids developing into a closer in the near future, I'd like to take that extra $4m per season and go shopping for a big, left handed bat next season.

What signing Valverde could also be signalling is that the Tigers don't view Weinhardt/Satterwite/Schlereth/etc. as being nearly as ready as they say. If they think any of them are a minimum of two years away, signing Valverde makes a lot more sense.

And I think you hit the Tigers thoughts on Granderson/EJax on the nose. After all, problems hitting lefties isn't anything new for Granderson and EJax has always been a guy with more potential than performance. I expect Jackson to have a good season just because he moved to the NL but I won't be surprised if Grandy is exposed a bit for not being the player everyone thought he was - though the friendly confines of NY's stadium certainly won't hurt his power numbers.
I'd rather see Zumaya and Perry and Schlereth fight over the closer's job than see Gregg get it at the price he's asking. They're just as likely to save a game as he is and they're way cheaper. Valverde is different - he's clearly better than any of these guys at this point. If DD thought they could get by with the young closers committee, he wouldn't have made this move. He must be really, really worried about it.

I think Grandy probably hits 40 homers this season. I also think he hits under .250 again overall, under .200 against lefties with no power, and that his doubles and triples decline even further. He's basically a skinny, fast Adam Dunn who doesn't walk as much - that's my prediction. I think the short porch in right is really going to get into his head and screw up his OPS.

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01-21-2010, 02:27 PM
  #339
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Good news for the Tigers and Tigers fas: Miggy has been getting alcohol abuse counselling. After that ridiculous incident near the end of last season there were a lot of people raising question marks about this guy, and even some whispers of maybe trading him if he's going to be a problem. Seeing that he's went out and is trying to work towards resolving this issue is a good thing.

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01-21-2010, 03:05 PM
  #340
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They're gonna need him to smash the hell out of the ball all year if they're going to avoid finishing last in the league in runs scored. Hopefully he got his head clear and it wasn't one of those "show" rehabs that we see so often with celebrities.

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02-11-2010, 11:12 PM
  #341
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Looks like we've offered Damon 2/$14m. We might need a lefty bat, and we definitely could use a guy at the top of the order, but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We already have a handful of OF/DH types on the team, and their contracts are anchors that should be coming off our books after this season - while Damon might make us a better team, we still won't be legit contenders (or at least shouldn't be) and this will only be money we can't spend next summer.

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02-11-2010, 11:31 PM
  #342
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Looks like we've offered Damon 2/$14m. We might need a lefty bat, and we definitely could use a guy at the top of the order, but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. We already have a handful of OF/DH types on the team, and their contracts are anchors that should be coming off our books after this season - while Damon might make us a better team, we still won't be legit contenders (or at least shouldn't be) and this will only be money we can't spend next summer.
Agreed. Not liking this Damon talk, but it sounds like he's going to be signed. Disappointing.

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02-11-2010, 11:37 PM
  #343
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This is a ****** move. The whole point of the Granderson deal was to cut salary and upgrade to contend in the future... signing Damon only adds salary and makes the team older. All he's good for is is leadoff hitting.

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02-12-2010, 12:21 AM
  #344
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This is a ****** move. The whole point of the Granderson deal was to cut salary and upgrade to contend in the future... signing Damon only adds salary and makes the team older. All he's good for is is leadoff hitting.
Well I think the Valverde signing showed that salary was indeed of no concern; it was all about upgrading and getting the most for Granderson, whom the Tigers apparently no longer believed in. Detroit is willing to spend, as usual, and as I had suspected. People thought the Tigers wouldn't re-sign Rodney because he was too expensive. I thought they would re-sign him (but glad they didn't), with salary not being an issue. Well, they didn't re-sign him, but not only was salary not an issue, they actually went out and spent more on a closer.

I do wonder if the Tigers would do better on a tighter budget though. I think there is something to be said about DD having the success he did in Florida on a much tighter budget, and having more struggles in Detroit with financial free reign. *shrug*

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02-12-2010, 08:53 AM
  #345
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Well I think the Valverde signing showed that salary was indeed of no concern; it was all about upgrading and getting the most for Granderson, whom the Tigers apparently no longer believed in. Detroit is willing to spend, as usual, and as I had suspected. People thought the Tigers wouldn't re-sign Rodney because he was too expensive. I thought they would re-sign him (but glad they didn't), with salary not being an issue. Well, they didn't re-sign him, but not only was salary not an issue, they actually went out and spent more on a closer.

I do wonder if the Tigers would do better on a tighter budget though. I think there is something to be said about DD having the success he did in Florida on a much tighter budget, and having more struggles in Detroit with financial free reign
. *shrug*
I wonder how much is DD and how much is Ilitch. Ilitch is pretty hands-off with the Wings but some of these moves made by DD just don't make sense when put up against DD's resume. Maybe Ilitch's desire to win now overrides Dombrowski's ideas for building the team to win tomorrow.

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02-12-2010, 09:21 AM
  #346
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I think it's kind of funny when people say that the Tigers have "struggled" since DD took over. They were the 2nd worst team in HISTORY before he took over and hadn't had a winning season in over 10 years. Within 3 years they went to a World Series and would have won it if their pitching staff could throw to first base.

Would people prefer to have Randy Smith back?

This looks like a Boras-Ilitch Special, no question. I don't think DD had any intention of going after Damon unless it was on a 1 year deal for 5 mil or less. Then the phone rang and Ilitch told him to give Boras whatever he wants, lest Boras release the scandalous nude photos he obviously has been using to keep wringing ridiculous contracts out of Ilitch when nobody else is bidding.

DD has made plenty of mistakes (extensions for mediocre players who are arb eligible), but he's a good GM and the team is in a much better place since he took over. Probably the most important thing he did was bring in David Chadd to run the scouting department. They're way better at drafting and identifying talent than they ever were before.

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02-12-2010, 11:18 AM
  #347
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I think it's kind of funny when people say that the Tigers have "struggled" since DD took over.
Speaking just for myself, that's not what I said. I said DD himself has struggled, relative to his work with the Marlins. I think DD is a good GM and has done a lot of great things for Detroit, and it was his decisions that led the Tigers out of the cellar and to the World Series in 2006. However, I think he has had some questionable moves/signings since then and he is largely responsible for why the Tigers have gone a bit downhill in the meantime. I just wonder if having virtually endless amounts of money to throw around has left him wide-eyed and sometimes unable to focus on the big picture.

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02-12-2010, 12:10 PM
  #348
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Speaking just for myself, that's not what I said. I said DD himself has struggled, relative to his work with the Marlins. I think DD is a good GM and has done a lot of great things for Detroit, and it was his decisions that led the Tigers out of the cellar and to the World Series in 2006. However, I think he has had some questionable moves/signings since then and he is largely responsible for why the Tigers have gone a bit downhill in the meantime. I just wonder if having virtually endless amounts of money to throw around has left him wide-eyed and sometimes unable to focus on the big picture.
On the same note, I'm curious how many of the "big ticket" expenditures during his tenure have been Ilitch's idea and not his. For instance, we know that DD was ordered to sign Pudge and Magglio to those deals, and it sure looks like he's been ordered to sign Damon.

Was the Renteria trade an order, or was it DD going after one of his old Florida players? Were the extensions to Willis and Nasty Nate his idea, or did Ilitch say "those two guys are really popular players, lock them up long-term"? I don't know, but I am curious.

Every GM makes mistakes though - it's just that DD didn't have the budget to make expensive mistakes when he was in Florida, he made mistakes in other ways.

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02-12-2010, 12:35 PM
  #349
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On the same note, I'm curious how many of the "big ticket" expenditures during his tenure have been Ilitch's idea and not his. For instance, we know that DD was ordered to sign Pudge and Magglio to those deals, and it sure looks like he's been ordered to sign Damon.

Was the Renteria trade an order, or was it DD going after one of his old Florida players? Were the extensions to Willis and Nasty Nate his idea, or did Ilitch say "those two guys are really popular players, lock them up long-term"? I don't know, but I am curious.

Every GM makes mistakes though - it's just that DD didn't have the budget to make expensive mistakes when he was in Florida, he made mistakes in other ways.
I think the Nate deal was on DD, but I've always seen the Willis deal as part of the Cabrera deal. If signing Willis made it that much easier to ink Miggy to a long term deal, I'll take it.

The Sheffield extension seems like an Ilitch thing. Renteria, not sure. I don't think the Tigers were too high on jurjjens because of his injury history, though.

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02-15-2010, 11:03 AM
  #350
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I love this tortured logic:

http://www.freep.com/article/2010021...ok-for-season-

The Tigers are going to be worse because they lost game 163 last year and because they lost these players, who made the following contributions in game 163:

Edwin Jackson - DNP
Fernando Rodney - 3 IP, 4H, 3BB, 2ER, losing pitcher
Brandon Lyon - 1.2 IP, 0H 1BB 0ER, ND
Curtis Granderson - 2 for 5 (singles), BB, 1R, 1k
Placido Polanco - 1 for 6 (single), 2k, 4LOB

So that's a pitcher that didn't pitch, a pitcher that blew the game, a pitcher that pitched 1.2 innings of good relief, 3 for 11 hitters (both singles), a walk, 3 strikeouts and 4 men left on base.

The Tigers will be lousy this year because despite almost winning the worst division in baseball history they were lousy last year, not because they lost some kind of dynastic core in the offseason.

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