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Old
02-04-2009, 03:26 PM
  #51
BigG44
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Originally Posted by beardedgraf View Post
he is -1 since he joined the stars, considering the way things were going earlier this year, ill gladly take that and niskanen's improvement over a broken boucher or a lost fistric right now. i mean cmon, the team is winning
That's BS. He's by every account I've read dominating the AHL. He didn't play worse than anyone else on the team. He just had the misfortune of being able to go to the minors without clearing waivers.

He belongs in the NHL, and he needed the time to adjust like Grossman and Niskanen received. Instead, he's been buried in Manitoba over Hutchinson and Sydor.

Mark Fistric is as much or more an NHL defenseman than both those guys.

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Old
02-04-2009, 03:28 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
Right, which goes right in line with my contention to your previous comment, though I differ with your opinion upon the quality of his play.
you must have misunderstood my point. i said they didnt trade for him to shutdown the zetterbergs or getzlafs. it is the job of all 6 on the ice to shutdown those players the stars have to play as a group to be successful, they werent expecting a shutdown defenseman out of sydor, they knew what they were getting and are getting it from him. the stars dont have a defenseman to play 30 minutes a game, a defenseman to run the PP, or a defenseman to be the cornerstone of the PK anymore. they have a defensive unit, not a defined top pair or blueline mainstay with zubov being hurt.


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Old
02-04-2009, 03:32 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
That's BS. He's by every account I've read dominating the AHL. He didn't play worse than anyone else on the team. He just had the misfortune of being able to go to the minors without clearing waivers.

He belongs in the NHL, and he needed the time to adjust like Grossman and Niskanen received. Instead, he's been buried in Manitoba over Hutchinson and Sydor.

Mark Fistric is as much or more an NHL defenseman than both those guys.
niskanen hasnt proven anything yet, he has to be paired with a veteran or he loses his game. take that away and who knows what we are left with, id rather keep sydor with niskanen and sit hutchinson if you want to see how fistric does now. but i wouldnt change a damn thing at the moment

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02-04-2009, 03:38 PM
  #54
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Yeah, Niskanen is terrible.

The PP has done nothing that Tippett pulled his head out of his *** and put Richards and Niskanen on the point.

Niskanen has played OK at ES despite Sydor's play.

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Old
02-04-2009, 03:49 PM
  #55
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I think Sydor has played decent in his return to Dallas. He has definitely returned Niskanen to playing well. I dont really understand the dislike of him on these boards. Just like I didnt understand why he was so hated in Pitt.He is nothing special he isnt great offensively or defensively and he definitely flops too much in his own zone, that being said, he is solid and I dont think Fistric could enable Niskanen to play the same way.


I would also hate to see Avery back on the team. I think its funny that some people are saying he doesnt deserve a chance to play based on his play though. He may not have been as good as some hoped, but 10 points in 23 games is not bad. And he was a plus player as someone else mentioned.

But like I said, I would rather not see him in a Stars uni again. The team obviously did not want him around and unless they as a group have changed their mind, I dont see what positive could come out of it. Maybe they could find a trade partner but if you dress him and let him play 5 minutes a night, its not like he is going to go out and wow anyone playing on a line with Barch/Parrish/Peterson/Lundqvist.



Also, I fail to see how that Flames goal last night was Sydor's fault. Seems to me almost every Stars player had an opportunity to collect that puck. It pinballed around the entire crease and wound up in the slot with no forwards in place to check the shooter.

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Old
02-04-2009, 04:53 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
So this is what you are proposing. Go to the team and say, "Hey, screw what you guys think of the guy and how well you are playing. What we need to do is move a contract! So, move over Brunnstrom, move over Neal, move over player who have earned their spot on their line. Screw moving up the standing and solidifying a playoff spot! We need to move a freaking contract on the very, very, very slim chance it will convince someone to take Avery away from us! Everyone just ignore the Rick Renner on skates (Avery)! So on three: One! Two! Three! Let's move a contract!!! Yeah!!!"
Uh, not exactly. Hyperventilate much?

Have you never worked with anyone you didn't like? Has that disliked co-worker actually been good at his or her job though and helped make your team reach goals? Have you never been in a position where someone you don't like says something to you or acts in a manner in which upsets you, but you actually act like a grownup and say something back or try to bridge a gap between the two of you?

I'm guessing you haven't, or you don't have faith the current roster of the Stars haven't progressed past a high school mentality. Many professional sports players haven't and don't until late in their careers, I'll grant you that, but don't you think it's time the kids in the dressing room start to act like men?

Your premise is also based upon projections that I'm not comfortable with making at this point, and based upon your comments over just the past two months, you weren't either until very recently. You assume the team will still be on a roll, playing well and not hit even the smallest of speed bumps by the time Avery gets done with his 'counseling.' I don't. It's inevitable the team comes back down a bit regardless if there's a scapegoat in Avery or not.

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Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
You are so right. We should all follow Hull's way and not even contact the team captains before aquiring a very controversial free agent. Every player would be dieing to play for an organization that shats on its players' interests on a regular basis!
I didn't write anything suggesting that. If you'd like to re-read what I wrote and respond in a cordial manner, I'll happily respond, but at this point I can't take anything you write seriously.

In response to 'Class1723,' I didn't want Avery on the team to begin with and wrote as much quite a few times on this board. Don't mistake my opinion the team should at least see if he's somehow rehabilitated and of some value before dumping him overboard and paying for the mistake for six years for what I argued consistently prior and just after his signing.

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Old
02-04-2009, 05:38 PM
  #57
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1) Avery is never coming back. Arguing about it is pointless.

2) If Fistric got called up obviously he wouldn't be paired with Niskanen.
Robidas-Grossman
Daley-Niskanen
Fistric-Hutchinson

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Old
02-04-2009, 06:41 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
Uh, not exactly. Hyperventilate much?

Have you never worked with anyone you didn't like? Has that disliked co-worker actually been good at his or her job though and helped make your team reach goals? Have you never been in a position where someone you don't like says something to you or acts in a manner in which upsets you, but you actually act like a grownup and say something back or try to bridge a gap between the two of you?

I'm guessing you haven't, or you don't have faith the current roster of the Stars haven't progressed past a high school mentality. Many professional sports players haven't and don't until late in their careers, I'll grant you that, but don't you think it's time the kids in the dressing room start to act like men?

Your premise is also based upon projections that I'm not comfortable with making at this point, and based upon your comments over just the past two months, you weren't either until very recently. You assume the team will still be on a roll, playing well and not hit even the smallest of speed bumps by the time Avery gets done with his 'counseling.' I don't. It's inevitable the team comes back down a bit regardless if there's a scapegoat in Avery or not.
If you give Avery a spot in this roster other than the 4th line, you are telling the team you don't care about winning, you care about the money (his contract). Your premise is based on the fact that a few shifts on the ice and GMs will be calling desperately for the Stars to release/trade him. No GM, who wasn't interested before, will be swayed with the Stars shoe-horning shifts for the biggest dbag on ice.

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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
I didn't write anything suggesting that. If you'd like to re-read what I wrote and respond in a cordial manner, I'll happily respond, but at this point I can't take anything you write seriously.
Then you don't understand how the Avery signing went down, which both Morrow and Modano have said they were not contacted before the signing was made. That's what I meant by "forcing" players on a roster. If you don't have your team captains' consent, then you shouldn't unload a controversial figure onto the team. And that's exactly what you want them to do again by playing Avery for no other reason but to move his contract.
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Originally Posted by piqued1457 View Post
1) Avery is never coming back. Arguing about it is pointless.

2) If Fistric got called up obviously he wouldn't be paired with Niskanen.
Robidas-Grossman
Daley-Niskanen
Fistric-Hutchinson
And he obviously wouldn't replace Sydor according to Tippett.

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Old
02-04-2009, 06:44 PM
  #59
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I wasnt trying to disagree with you Chad. I was just saying, there is little to gain from even letting him in the locker room if the team wont accept him. If he is rehabilitated or not it wont matter if the other guys wont even accept him.

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Old
02-04-2009, 08:41 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
If you give Avery a spot in this roster other than the 4th line, you are telling the team you don't care about winning, you care about the money (his contract). Your premise is based on the fact that a few shifts on the ice and GMs will be calling desperately for the Stars to release/trade him. No GM, who wasn't interested before, will be swayed with the Stars shoe-horning shifts for the biggest dbag on ice.
Where did I write that a few shifts for Avery would result in other general managers "calling desperately?" It might suit your own argument to make things up out of thin air, but it's incredibly boorish behavior.

One last time for the 'Caseman's' among us. Right now Avery has no trade value. None. Zilch. Nada. Supposedly he's almost done with his league-mandated 'counseling' program, thus would start to count against the Stars 23-man roster limit unless sent to the AHL or suspended by the team, the latter which would be a very tiresome process for the team to get by with without incurring the wrath of the NHLPA unless Avery refuses to accept a demotion.

Since the Stars don't have an AHL affiliate, the team will be banking on some AHL team to be willing to accept Avery on the team. One of the alleged distractions Avery is most adept at is hazing rookies and/or young players. The AHL is chock full of both, thus it's going to be very hard to convince any AHL team to take him on.

Avery has stated that he'd accept a demotion to the AHL, and frankly he'd be crazy not to in order to try to work himself back into the NHL and cash that ridiculous contract the Stars handed out to him. This would negate a team suspension for failing to report, again assuming the Stars could actually find an AHL team to accept him.

Whether any of us like it or not, Avery is stuck on this team until the buyout period after the season. But where I may differ with some others is that I'd like to see the team actually try to see if Avery has indeed been humbled and would be a better person; there's nothing wrong with his play, and, no, he's not a fourth line player.

If Avery has been humbled by this experience and if his initial comments indicating such are genuine, huge 'ifs' of course, it would be in the team's best long-term interest to suit him up and allow his own play to create a value for him, be it through a trade, waiver or re-entry waivers. The act of him even being on the roster and suiting up would create at least some interest, no matter how little it might be, because his play is already well known. The question mark is and always was with his attitude.

As it stands now or if they simply buy him out, he'll be nothing but a vacuum on this team's salary cap. Is it not unwise to try to drum up some interest just to see if there might be another team willing to take him on? I think it would be unwise and wasteful not to.

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Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
Then you don't understand how the Avery signing went down, which both Morrow and Modano have said they were not contacted before the signing was made. That's what I meant by "forcing" players on a roster. If you don't have your team captains' consent, then you shouldn't unload a controversial figure onto the team. And that's exactly what you want them to do again by playing Avery for no other reason but to move his contract.
No, I understand it perfectly. Pre-Avery I wrote on this very board of Morrow's hatred for Avery, noted his post-signing comments and how Hull did the move on his own. But I don't agree that a general manager needs to get the written or verbal consent from all his employees before making a move he thinks will improve the team.

There's a guy on the Stars that is or was controversial and added without the express written permission from Morrow. He's turned out to be pretty good, and a very good linemate for Morrow. There are slews of other players the Stars have signed or traded for that were controversial. Heck, a legend of the Dallas Stars is controversial in his own right. Having controversy attached to one's name is not a death sentence for anyone, much less a professional athlete, the latter being pretty common.

Finally, do you not believe someone can change one's behavior after a humbling episode in one's life? Does it not at least make you take a moment's pause to ask the question that if Avery has been humbled, he might actually make a decent teammate if nothing else for a couple of months at most?

Class1723, I wrote that as more of a self-regurgitation note because I hate defending Avery or arguing anything in his behalf. And while I don't feel this is necessarily doing so, instead trying to throw something out there to benefit the Stars, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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Old
02-04-2009, 10:24 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
Where did I write that a few shifts for Avery would result in other general managers "calling desperately?" It might suit your own argument to make things up out of thin air, but it's incredibly boorish behavior.
Then what are you expecting then? What could Avery possibly do in a span of 10 games that he hasn't shown in his 9 seasons already in the NHL? He obviously wasn't putting up stats before his suspension. What are you trying to prove? Everyone already knows the Stars's lockerroom hates his guts. You aren't going to fool anyone and make them think, "Look how they are being forced to play with this guy! They must weally like him now!"

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But where I may differ with some others is that I'd like to see the team actually try to see if Avery has indeed been humbled and would be a better person; there's nothing wrong with his play, and, no, he's not a fourth line player.
See if he has been humbled? What? So are you saying, after being kicked off the Kings and turned away by the Rangers, he will suddenly be humbled? Are you kidding me?

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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
As it stands now or if they simply buy him out, he'll be nothing but a vacuum on this team's salary cap. Is it not unwise to try to drum up some interest just to see if there might be another team willing to take him on? I think it would be unwise and wasteful not to.
Again, who are you trying to drum up attention for? What will Avery show in 10 games that he hasn't shown in his career?

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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
No, I understand it perfectly. Pre-Avery I wrote on this very board of Morrow's hatred for Avery, noted his post-signing comments and how Hull did the move on his own. But I don't agree that a general manager needs to get the written or verbal consent from all his employees before making a move he thinks will improve the team.
Oh good grief. You honestly telling me you wouldn't consult your team captain before acquiring a very controversial player, known to stir up lockerrooms? I can't believe this garbage.

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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
There's a guy on the Stars that is or was controversial and added without the express written permission from Morrow. He's turned out to be pretty good, and a very good linemate for Morrow. There are slews of other players the Stars have signed or traded for that were controversial. Heck, a legend of the Dallas Stars is controversial in his own right. Having controversy attached to one's name is not a death sentence for anyone, much less a professional athlete, the latter being pretty common.
Comapring Ribeiro to Avery. Stretch of the '09, congrats. And Hull was at least a good teammate. Avery is not. Another stretch.

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Finally, do you not believe someone can change one's behavior after a humbling episode in one's life? Does it not at least make you take a moment's pause to ask the question that if Avery has been humbled, he might actually make a decent teammate if nothing else for a couple of months at most?
Again, humbled? Humbled? Everything this dbag has done in his career and he will suddenly become "humbled"? For all we know, he could be celebrating. He will be a richer man this off-season for nothing. He can dress in all the lingerie he wants with 1.33 million in his bank.

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Old
02-05-2009, 01:36 AM
  #62
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You know, Caseman, it might help if you actually read my entire comment first and then responded accordingly, rather than do it by bits and pieces. Many of the answers to your queries are within the previous comment.

Thanks for the discourse.

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02-05-2009, 01:38 AM
  #63
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haha how about the 1st overall pick in 1999. Patrick Stefan.

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02-05-2009, 09:51 AM
  #64
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From Andrews page, guess it puts an end to the speculation about Avery's potentially of coming back to Dallas. Have to say I'm glad to see there is no potential.

Quote:
Stars co-GM Les Jackson was on the Calgary Flames radio broadcast Monday night and was asked about Avery.

“The problem that will arise is where does he go,” Jackson said. “He’s not coming back to Dallas, we know that for sure. We’ll hopefully find him another place and he can convince a team that he’s going to come back and play, and play to the level that he is capable, respect the game and the respect the people around him.”

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Old
02-05-2009, 10:01 AM
  #65
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Thank God.

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02-05-2009, 10:29 AM
  #66
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Perhaps Jackson is talking to some teams (NYR?) about sending him to their AHL team so they can take a first hand look at him, then if they want him they claim him on reentry waivers?

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02-05-2009, 12:33 PM
  #67
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Someone with more knowledge of this than I......if a team were to claim Avery off waivers, would we still have to pay him anything?

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02-05-2009, 12:41 PM
  #68
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Someone with more knowledge of this than I......if a team were to claim Avery off waivers, would we still have to pay him anything?
half for the remainder of the contract for re-entry waviers

nothing if claimed on regular waviers

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Old
02-05-2009, 01:41 PM
  #69
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You know, Caseman, it might help if you actually read my entire comment first and then responded accordingly, rather than do it by bits and pieces. Many of the answers to your queries are within the previous comment.
No they aren't. I don't need to quote your entire post to prove I have read it. But that's a nice way of ignoring my entire post.
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Thanks for the discourse.
Indeed.

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02-05-2009, 02:37 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
No they aren't. I don't need to quote your entire post to prove I have read it. But that's a nice way of ignoring my entire post.
Really? Here's one.

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Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
Again, who are you trying to drum up attention for? What will Avery show in 10 games that he hasn't shown in his career?
From the very same comment you replied to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
. . . it would be in the team's best long-term interest to suit him up and allow his own play to create a value for him, be it through a trade, waiver or re-entry waivers. The act of him even being on the roster and suiting up would create at least some interest, no matter how little it might be, because his play is already well known.
Good game.

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02-05-2009, 04:03 PM
  #71
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We're into Round 10 here out at the Rumble in the Jungle with Chad_ vs. Caseman.

No clear cut leader, but rumors are swirling about Caseman's castration claim if he loses. With something like that on you mind, you can bet Caseman is willing to pull out all the stops.

Who'll land the knockout punch?

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02-05-2009, 04:06 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
We're into Round 10 here out at the Rumble in the Jungle with Chad_ vs. Caseman.

No clear cut leader, but rumors are swirling about Caseman's castration claim if he loses. With something like that on you mind, you can bet Caseman is willing to pull out all the stops.

Who'll land the knockout punch?
lol...

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02-05-2009, 04:27 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
Good game.
Uh, what? Did you even read my question? What will Avery show in 10 games that he hasn't shown in his career? Why would other GMs suddenly be "interested" to see him play? They don't need to see him on the ice for lousy minutes, not accumulating points, and acting like an ass. I know you acknowledged "his play is already well known", but you have yet to proove how playing him for the next 10 games would do anything to tempt the hockey wieners of this league.

Anyway, I'm glad Les Jackson has already squashed the rumour.

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02-05-2009, 06:00 PM
  #74
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If you were a forest, could anyone ever travel through?

From a previous comment left by me, one which you claim there were no answers to your later queries within, I wrote the following:
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The act of him even being on the roster and suiting up would create at least some interest, no matter how little it might be, because his play is already well known.
Since you either don't get it or you need things spelled out for you in the most basic of language, allow me to try once again.

Avery did not mesh with the Stars during his first go-around. His value as a hockey player is well known, and there is value in him for his on-ice play. It's his off-ice antics that exhaust his value to nil or negative.

If the Stars were to take the gamble by just allowing the guy to suit up with the team, it would send the message that Avery has somehow rehabilitated and learned to make amends with the Stars, thus decreasing his negative off-ice value and just possibly moving his overall value into something of a positive one, therefore movable. Moving him would be preferable than having his cap hit drain the Stars for six years.

Is that not crystal clear enough for you? If you don't agree with that opinion, fine, but to pretend that I have not already answered that very question is either childish or details a problem you have with reading and comprehending the English language.

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02-05-2009, 06:22 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
If you were a forest, could anyone ever travel through?

From a previous comment left by me, one which you claim there were no answers to your later queries within, I wrote the following:

Since you either don't get it or you need things spelled out for you in the most basic of language, allow me to try once again.

Avery did not mesh with the Stars during his first go-around. His value as a hockey player is well known, and there is value in him for his on-ice play. It's his off-ice antics that exhaust his value to nil or negative.

If the Stars were to take the gamble by just allowing the guy to suit up with the team, it would send the message that Avery has somehow rehabilitated and learned to make amends with the Stars, thus decreasing his negative off-ice value and just possibly moving his overall value into something of a positive one, therefore movable. Moving him would be preferable than having his cap hit drain the Stars for six years.

Is that not crystal clear enough for you? If you don't agree with that opinion, fine, but to pretend that I have not already answered that very question is either childish or details a problem you have with reading and comprehending the English language.
First of all, that quote you keep posting had not answer my question. You said playing Avery would drum up "interest" for him and I asked why. However, you insisted you already answered that question, but you hadn't and I asked again for a reason why it would drum up "interest". Yet you continue to believe your comment was a sufficient answer even though it had not answered why he would drum up "interest", but I disgress...

The part I highlighted has answered my question. You want the team to lie. You want to act like the team likes Avery as a person and a teammate, which they do not. You want to fool other GM's that Avery is "humbled" (referring to your previous post), when everyone with a brain knows he is a self-serving deviant. So if you want to gamble with a lie, then fine. That's your decision on how to run an organization. I'm just glad Les Jackson has the integrity to not force this cancer on his lockerroom for the sake of 1.33 million dollars of cap room.

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