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Does Mike Green deserve to win the Norris?

View Poll Results: Does Mike Green Deserve to win the Norris?
Yes, and I'm NOT a Caps fan 36 15.32%
No, and I'm NOT a Caps fan 150 63.83%
Yes, and I'm a Caps fan 14 5.96%
No, and I'm a Caps fan 35 14.89%
Voters: 235. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-04-2009, 09:30 PM
  #51
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
Chara is dominant offensively?

51 games, 30 pts

Pronger:

53 games, 32 pts

Green:

39 games, 42 points

This whole "one-dimensional" argument is as hypocritical as when people try to argue that players who have 20 goals and 50 assists are more balanced than players with 40 goals, 30 assists.
The problem with this example is that Chara and Pronger are light years ahead of Green defensively and both are very good offensively. Sure Green is above them offensively, but the defensive gap is far greater.

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02-04-2009, 10:18 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
The problem with this example is that Chara and Pronger are light years ahead of Green defensively and both are very good offensively. Sure Green is above them offensively, but the defensive gap is far greater.
green is on pace for over a point a game, so if he had played 50 games he would, on average, have 50+ points. would you not say that 1.5x's chara's point production isn't light years ahead? or are you saying you need to be 2x's as good?

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02-04-2009, 10:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by sillygoose View Post
green is on pace for over a point a game, so if he had played 50 games he would, on average, have 50+ points. would you not say that 1.5x's chara's point production isn't light years ahead? or are you saying you need to be 2x's as good?
For a purely offensive d-man they need to be in the neighborhood of an Art ross(top 10 scoring)

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02-04-2009, 10:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
For a purely offensive d-man they need to be in the neighborhood of an Art ross(top 10 scoring)
Yeah, when was the last time that happened?

Get back to me.

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Old
02-04-2009, 11:15 PM
  #55
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Yeah, when was the last time that happened?

Get back to me.
Brian Leetch 90-91 and Paul Coffey(for all three of his)

See why this is a slippery slope for Green?

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02-04-2009, 11:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
Brian Leetch 90-91 and Paul Coffey(for all three of his)

See why this is a slippery slope for Green?
Nope.

The early 90s were among the highest scoring in league history.

And that was 20+ years ago.

If Green stays on his point pace his points, goals and games missed he will be impossible to dismiss.

No defensemen in years has kept the point-per-game pace for that long.

Then we can re-open this thread.

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Old
02-04-2009, 11:20 PM
  #57
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No.

Chara for me...for the reasons discussed.

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02-04-2009, 11:24 PM
  #58
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No, and I'm a Caps fan.

Not yet... Within a few years, very possibly.

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Old
02-04-2009, 11:25 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
Nope.

The early 90s were among the highest scoring in league history.

And that was 20+ years ago.

If Green stays on his point pace his points, goals and games missed he will be impossible to dismiss.

No defensemen has kept the point-per-game pace for that long.

Then we can re-open this thread.
Really 90-91 is 20 years ago? 94-95 is 20+ years ago? You asked when the last time it happened and I told you when it did. That should highlight just how good you have to be to win the Norris relying on the majority of your game being offense.

PPG pace mans nothing. Paul Karyia has the 2nd highest PPG pace next to malkin is he going to be 2nd for the Art Ross this year?

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02-04-2009, 11:26 PM
  #60
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my idea would be they bring in a trophy for defencemen that is similar to the art ross, the the defencemen with the most points wins.. cause most people will say someone got snubbed because they put up better offensive numbers. etc

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02-04-2009, 11:29 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
Really 90-91 is 20 years ago? 94-95 is 20+ years ago? You asked when the last time it happened and I told you when it did. That should highlight just how good you have to be to win the Norris relying on the majority of your game being offense.

PPG pace mans nothing. Paul Karyia has the 2nd highest PPG pace next to malkin is he going to be 2nd for the Art Ross this year?
Kariya has played 11 games.

I was wrong- it was 19 years.

You're picking me apart.

Let's see how it plays out.

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Old
02-04-2009, 11:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
For a purely offensive d-man they need to be in the neighborhood of an Art ross(top 10 scoring)
And for what its worth, Green's PPG pace would place him in the top 10 in scoring if he hadn't been hurt.

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02-04-2009, 11:53 PM
  #63
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And for what its worth, Green's PPG pace would place him in the top 10 in scoring if he hadn't been hurt.
He's 15th in PPG. You can't say that unless you give the other players you missed games the benefit of the doubt as well.

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Old
02-05-2009, 12:01 AM
  #64
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Since when is the Norris rewarded to defensive stalwarts? It's really about who can put up the most points, and still be alright on defense. If he keeps this pace and stays healthy, he'll win.

When was the last time a defenseman averaged over a point per game? MacInnis?

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Old
02-05-2009, 12:14 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Bourdon View Post
Since when is the Norris rewarded to defensive stalwarts? It's really about who can put up the most points, and still be alright on defense. If he keeps this pace and stays healthy, he'll win.

When was the last time a defenseman averaged over a point per game? MacInnis?
Lidstrom X 6 Borque X5 Chelios X3 Pronger and MacInnis 1 each. So quite often they do. It just happens these guys are excellent defensively and can put up a ton of points while not sacrificing much on offense

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02-05-2009, 07:54 AM
  #66
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Since when is the Norris rewarded to defensive stalwarts? It's really about who can put up the most points, and still be alright on defense. If he keeps this pace and stays healthy, he'll win.

When was the last time a defenseman averaged over a point per game? MacInnis?
Lidstrom 3 years ago put up a PPG.

And the Truth is, it goes to the most solid defenseman who can also put up points.

In order for green to win it, he would need to put up some ridiculous offensive numbers because he is just not in the same league as the two way defensemen defensively. Defense matters for this trophy.

2000-01: Leetch outscored Lidstrom by almost 10 points, yet Lidstrom beat him clean for the Norris. In fact, Leetch was only 5th for the Norris and he played adequate defense(At least, better than green can). Leetch beat the runners up by 20+ points offensively, Bourque and Blake(59 points each), and Scott Stevens(31 points) yet they beat Leetch's for the Norris by a large amount of voting.

2001-02: Lidstrom wins again, tying for the scoring lead with 59 points against Gonchar. Gonchar, despite his scoring, was only 4th for the Norris. Blake scoring 56 points, Leetch 55 and Ozolish 52................ Chelios only scored 39 points, yet he was runner up. Pronger scored less than Leetch or Ozolish, yet he beat them in voting by a huge margin.

2002-03: Al Macinnis(Runner up) scored 68 points, and Gonchar(4th for Norris) scored 67. Lidstrom scored 62 was was the easy winner. Derian Hatcher only scored 30 points, yet was 3rd for the Norris over a guy who scored twice as much(Gonchar. And Gonchar back then was comparable to Green now both defensively and offensively in the Clutch and grab NHL)

2003-04: Lidstrom had a very off year both defensively and offensively and was not in the running this year. Gonchar lead all Dmen in scoring with 58 points, yet was not even a Norris candidate. Niedermayer had one of his best years(This was the year he peaked) and won the Norris. Pronger tied him in points(54 points), and was 3rd. Between them was Chara in 2nd and Chara(41 points) had 17 less points than Gonchar yet blew him away.

2005-06: Lidstrom won again, etc etc, Zubov outpointed Niedermayer by almost 10 points, but was beat clean for runner up, etc

Need I go on? Defense, very obviously, Matters a lot in Norris voting.

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02-05-2009, 09:00 AM
  #67
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The last time a d-man won with a Mike Green type of season was probably Randy Carlyle back in the early 80's. And even then he only won it because much of his main competition that season had injury issues.

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02-05-2009, 09:01 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Lidstrom 3 years ago put up a PPG.

And the Truth is, it goes to the most solid defenseman who can also put up points.

In order for green to win it, he would need to put up some ridiculous offensive numbers because he is just not in the same league as the two way defensemen defensively. Defense matters for this trophy.

2000-01: Leetch outscored Lidstrom by almost 10 points, yet Lidstrom beat him clean for the Norris. In fact, Leetch was only 5th for the Norris and he played adequate defense(At least, better than green can). Leetch beat the runners up by 20+ points offensively, Bourque and Blake(59 points each), and Scott Stevens(31 points) yet they beat Leetch's for the Norris by a large amount of voting

2002-03: Al Macinnis(Runner up) scored 68 points, and Gonchar(4th for Norris) scored 67. Lidstrom scored 62 was was the easy winner. Derian Hatcher only scored 30 points, yet was 3rd for the Norris over a guy who scored twice as much(Gonchar. And Gonchar back then was comparable to Green now both defensively and offensively in the Clutch and grab NHL)

2003-04: Lidstrom had a very off year both defensively and offensively and was not in the running this year. Gonchar lead all Dmen in scoring with 58 points, yet was not even a Norris candidate. Niedermayer had one of his best years(This was the year he peaked) and won the Norris. Pronger tied him in points(54 points), and was 3rd. Between them was Chara in 2nd and Chara(41 points) had 17 less points than Gonchar yet blew him away.

Need I go on? Defense, very obviously, Matters a lot in Norris voting.
Or the defenseman that stands out. You do that by scoring goals, putting up points, and with big hits, there's a reason why Phaneuf was 2nd in Norris voting.

In '01, you missed one of the most important reasons why Leetch didn't get more votes, he was an underwhelming -18. Green is an impressive +19, which is +37 better then Leetch that year.

In '03, Hatcher was +37, just -3 of Lidstrom, and +7 from 3rd. Gonchar was just +13, which doesn't put him in the top 30.

In '04, Nierddermayer was +20, while Pronger was -1. Chara was 2nd in the league with a +33, -2 of the leader, and +4 of 3rd.

If your gonna use stats, make sure you use +/- as well.. as much as people hate it, if your putting up points but can't bring a solid +/- rating, it doesn't matter. Every top voter was among the leaders if you combined +/- and scoring.


I could care less what people think of Green's defensive abilities, and I don't care how he does it, but he's one of the most effective defensemen at making sure the puck doesn't end up in his net. That's not an opinion either. And no, I don't think he should be winning the Norris, for as many penalties Washington gets, Green should be on the PK more often if he were to win.

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Old
02-05-2009, 11:23 AM
  #69
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Not yet. If he keeps developing, it won't be too far in the distant future.

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02-05-2009, 11:33 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Lidstrom 3 years ago put up a PPG.

And the Truth is, it goes to the most solid defenseman who can also put up points.

In order for green to win it, he would need to put up some ridiculous offensive numbers because he is just not in the same league as the two way defensemen defensively. Defense matters for this trophy.

2000-01: Leetch outscored Lidstrom by almost 10 points, yet Lidstrom beat him clean for the Norris. In fact, Leetch was only 5th for the Norris and he played adequate defense(At least, better than green can). Leetch beat the runners up by 20+ points offensively, Bourque and Blake(59 points each), and Scott Stevens(31 points) yet they beat Leetch's for the Norris by a large amount of voting.

2001-02: Lidstrom wins again, tying for the scoring lead with 59 points against Gonchar. Gonchar, despite his scoring, was only 4th for the Norris. Blake scoring 56 points, Leetch 55 and Ozolish 52................ Chelios only scored 39 points, yet he was runner up. Pronger scored less than Leetch or Ozolish, yet he beat them in voting by a huge margin.

2002-03: Al Macinnis(Runner up) scored 68 points, and Gonchar(4th for Norris) scored 67. Lidstrom scored 62 was was the easy winner. Derian Hatcher only scored 30 points, yet was 3rd for the Norris over a guy who scored twice as much(Gonchar. And Gonchar back then was comparable to Green now both defensively and offensively in the Clutch and grab NHL)

2003-04: Lidstrom had a very off year both defensively and offensively and was not in the running this year. Gonchar lead all Dmen in scoring with 58 points, yet was not even a Norris candidate. Niedermayer had one of his best years(This was the year he peaked) and won the Norris. Pronger tied him in points(54 points), and was 3rd. Between them was Chara in 2nd and Chara(41 points) had 17 less points than Gonchar yet blew him away.

2005-06: Lidstrom won again, etc etc, Zubov outpointed Niedermayer by almost 10 points, but was beat clean for runner up, etc

Need I go on? Defense, very obviously, Matters a lot in Norris voting.
Great post. People who are just counting stats are going to be in for a surprise when the finalists end up being Chara, Lidstrom, and someone else (hopefully Keith, but I wouldn't be shocked if it's one of Markov, Boyle, or Niedermayer).

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Old
02-05-2009, 03:37 PM
  #71
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Green is going to be damn close to leading the league in goals, points, and +/- for defensemen, and damn close to being top-5 in minutes per game as well.

He has an excellent, excellent chance at winning the Norris, especially since no previous winners are having remarkable years.

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02-05-2009, 03:51 PM
  #72
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yes, he's an absolute stud. Plus Green is the perfect example of the saying "a good defense is a good offense." How can you question his defense if most of the time he's making crisp passes out of the zone, rushing end to end and constantly hemming the other team in their zones with astute decision making? right now, it's his norris to lose. just don't get hurt again.

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02-05-2009, 03:53 PM
  #73
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as of right now, he shouldn't win it.

but if he keeps up some semblance of this pace, and comes close to, or surpasses, 30 goals, then he'll have a very legitimate chance of winning the award. especially if he gets around +30.

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02-05-2009, 04:25 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by backs4mvp View Post
Or the defenseman that stands out. You do that by scoring goals, putting up points, and with big hits, there's a reason why Phaneuf was 2nd in Norris voting.

In '01, you missed one of the most important reasons why Leetch didn't get more votes, he was an underwhelming -18. Green is an impressive +19, which is +37 better then Leetch that year.

In '03, Hatcher was +37, just -3 of Lidstrom, and +7 from 3rd. Gonchar was just +13, which doesn't put him in the top 30.

In '04, Nierddermayer was +20, while Pronger was -1. Chara was 2nd in the league with a +33, -2 of the leader, and +4 of 3rd.

If your gonna use stats, make sure you use +/- as well.. as much as people hate it, if your putting up points but can't bring a solid +/- rating, it doesn't matter. Every top voter was among the leaders if you combined +/- and scoring.


I could care less what people think of Green's defensive abilities, and I don't care how he does it, but he's one of the most effective defensemen at making sure the puck doesn't end up in his net. That's not an opinion either. And no, I don't think he should be winning the Norris, for as many penalties Washington gets, Green should be on the PK more often if he were to win.
I think you missed the part where the guy I was responding to said ""whoever scores the most points and is "Alright" on defense will win.""

In either case, +/- is primarily a team statistic and even then, it usually does not even remotely come close to telling the story.

Lidstrom's first norris year was only a +9, and he had multiple Defensmen teammates with Better +/-'s than him, but not a soul in the world would say they were even remotely close to as good as him defensively. In that same year, Rafalski outscored teammate Stevens by over 20 points, and had a similar +/-36 to Stevens +40, yet not a soul would say Rafalski was even remotely close to as good as Stevens that year.

I could go on and on dissecting every year, but its unnecessary. +/- has always been an unreliable stat. If Green somehow had an enormous lead over all his teammates in +/-(I.E He is +10 and the rest start at -5) then it would start to have a bit of bearing.

That's why there are so many instances of Defensemen having more points and a better +/-, but losing to someone with poorer stats. because +/- is an unreliable team based 5 on 5 stat.

And to the Bolded part. It sure is an opinion. Its certainly not fact. The group of forwards he plays with play a key role in their maintained offense just as much, if not more than Green.

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02-05-2009, 04:47 PM
  #75
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If all these defensemen stay healthy the rest of the year, and continue on at their paces....


These guys are up there in all 3 categories - points, +/-, and minutes per game:

Green: 69gms, 28gls, 74pts, +34, 25:34
Chara: 82gms, 17gls, 47pts, +39, 26:36
Lidstrom: 79gms, 13gls, 58pts, +28, 25:01
Wideman: 81gms, 19gls, 59pts, +51, 25:37
Keith: 78gms, 10gls, 50pts, +45, 25:36

I'd say those would be the top-5 Norris candidates.


These guys are up there, but are missing one of the three key categories.....

Boyle: 78gms, 23gls, 67pts, +21, 24:07
Streit: 82gms, 14gls, 62pts, +3, 24:59
Rafalski: 82gms, 11gls, 60pts, +19, 23:01
Campbell: 82gms, 12gls, 59pts, +12, 23:28
Niedermayer: 82gms, 9gls, 55pts, -6, 27:11
Weber: 81gms, 23gls, 53pts, +10, 23:27
Phaneuf: 82gms, 8gls, 51pts, -13, 27:00
Pronger: 82gms, 14gls, 49pts, -2, 26:47
Bouwmeester: 82gms, 18gls, 45pts, +5, 27:20

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