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Old
02-05-2009, 08:49 AM
  #176
montreal
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Many people here would be surprised at what Shawn Belle could bring to the table. I believe he would be a great 6th D (although he was drafted to be a top 4) . He's lightning fast, 6-1 235bls, he's tough, he hits, is very good defensively (+16) and makes a decent first pass.

For those who have had a chance to watch him play (at least 5-10 games), what do you think?
I have been impressed with Belle but I would not want him as our 6th D next year. He's got good speed for sure but lightning fast might be a bit much, he is tough and he always sticks up for his teammates, have seen him drop the gloves twice when his D partner Weber got rocked. He's solid in his own end for the most part, but he's also often not playing against the top players since Jancevski and Henry usually do that, but he's still played well and I do think he stands to improve as he's still young for a defensemen.

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02-05-2009, 08:54 AM
  #177
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Of cours it's more... it's 18% in the US and 50% in Canada with a salary like that. Welcome to Social democratie of soviet Canada my friend

Oh btw, you don't have to send your kids at a french school...you should know better then that if you live in montreal man

But other then that I will agree. Montréal is slowly becoming one of the least appealing city in Canada, up there with Toronto.
Holy crud, move too the States then buddy. Especially during this economic downturn be glad that you still have Universal Healthcare and can keep going to college without worrying that you won't have money for anything else.

I'd take Toronto/Montreal before any city in the States.

Do you know how many people lost jobs out in the States and now a good chunk of them can't afford health insurance anymore?
You've got families offing themselves (well, one big incident) because they can't afford the cost of living in the States anymore.

A poll they showed on CNN indicated that many Americans would leave if they could.

Alas, we digress and we're going off topic here.

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02-05-2009, 09:06 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I have been impressed with Belle but I would not want him as our 6th D next year. He's got good speed for sure but lightning fast might be a bit much, he is tough and he always sticks up for his teammates, have seen him drop the gloves twice when his D partner Weber got rocked. He's solid in his own end for the most part, but he's also often not playing against the top players since Jancevski and Henry usually do that, but he's still played well and I do think he stands to improve as he's still young for a defensemen.
For his size, he's up there and that's my point really..

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02-05-2009, 09:10 AM
  #179
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Holy crud, move too the States then buddy. Especially during this economic downturn be glad that you still have Universal Healthcare and can keep going to college without worrying that you won't have money for anything else.I'd take Toronto/Montreal before any city in the States.Do you know how many people lost jobs out in the States and now a good chunk of them can't afford health insurance anymore? You've got families offing themselves (well, one big incident) because they can't afford the cost of living in the States anymore.A poll they showed on CNN indicated that many Americans would leave if they could.Alas, we digress and we're going off topic here.
Yes this is going off topic but let me be clear. I did not say that the US were better then Canada at any point. Just saying we pay way, way to much taxes. Not complaining about healthcare systeme it's actually a very good thing. But a lot of our money is wasted and that's because we just give too much of it to the government. It's hard not to waste money you don't have to work for isnt it ?

THAT BEING SAID.

When I said Montreal and Toronto were some of the least appealing cities I was thinking about Canada, sorry I didnt clear that up. I think Montreal lacks of vision. The city is going nowhere. More crimes, families leaving for the suberbs, ****ty roads, stupid mayor, no big events (losing the GP...sight)... Toroton is pretty much the same with even more crime...Smaller cities like Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Québec City, sight...even Ottawa/Gatineau... Offers more then Montréal and Toronto.They need to put the city back on track so it helps up recruiting Top hockey players


PS. If I could I'd move to Cali tbh.

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02-05-2009, 09:12 AM
  #180
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Sorry dude, I get testy sometimes when Canada and the Canadiens are brought up negatively, I go into instant defence mode.

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02-05-2009, 09:15 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Judge Sauer View Post
Sorry dude, I get testy sometimes when Canada and the Canadiens are brought up negatively, I go into instant defence mode.

No problem. I went to college in the US for a year and I realised how stupid they think we are and it pissed me off too. Thus, I understand

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02-05-2009, 09:33 AM
  #182
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Yes this is going off topic but let me be clear. I did not say that the US were better then Canada at any point. Just saying we pay way, way to much taxes. Not complaining about healthcare systeme it's actually a very good thing. But a lot of our money is wasted and that's because we just give too much of it to the government. It's hard not to waste money you don't have to work for isnt it ?

THAT BEING SAID.

When I said Montreal and Toronto were some of the least appealing cities I was thinking about Canada, sorry I didnt clear that up. I think Montreal lacks of vision. The city is going nowhere. More crimes, families leaving for the suberbs, ****ty roads, stupid mayor, no big events (losing the GP...sight)... Toroton is pretty much the same with even more crime...Smaller cities like Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Winnipeg, Québec City, sight...even Ottawa/Gatineau... Offers more then Montréal and Toronto.They need to put the city back on track so it helps up recruiting Top hockey players


PS. If I could I'd move to Cali tbh.
So what you're trying to say is that.......Montreal needs more stripclubs???!!!!

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02-05-2009, 09:42 AM
  #183
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So what you're trying to say is that.......Montreal needs more stripclubs???!!!!

HA HA So true

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02-05-2009, 09:57 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Playoff Beard View Post
That said, there is also no way he gets that much less than Hammer who's making 5.5 M I think. Everybody would like Gainey to sign Komisarek for 4M but the truth is he's going to ask for a lot moer than that. I still hope that we can sign him for 5M long term, 5 or 6 years maximum though. I think he really wants to play for the Habs.
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
It's not unreasonable to see Komisarek at 5M/year if Roman Hamrlik is worth 5.5M/yr to the Canadiens. And I think you'll see some of that logic being used by Komisarek's agents. Gainey's probably hoping for somewhere around there anyway.

That being said, I think numbers in the 6M range are completely ridiculous. Brooks Orpik is a stay-at-home shot blocking defenseman who signed for 3.75M last season. Obviously Komisarek is better than Orpik, but in terms of comparables he's more Orpik than Bouwmeester, let's put it that way.

For the last heffin time, the Hamrlik comparison is a waste and totally ridiculous. First off, Markov makes about 250k mroe than Hammer, so forget about Komi making more than Hammer because it would be too close to Markov's salary.

Now, do ANY of you two KNOW why Hamrlik got that amount??? Firstly, he was signed ON the market. Secondly, when they signed him, he was of Markov caliber in both offense (just a bit less) and defense and had more grit. They wanted to use Hammer as a Markov for the second pairing, and since he's been on the second pairing, his production has declined. Oh and that's the same season before Markov signed his own contract so I will add him to the comparison so you can actually UNDERSTAND why Hammer was signed to 5,5 mil per.

Just before Hammer signed with the Habs, he had finished his season :

- top 30 among all Dmen for points (Markov was 17th!!). Now can Komi match this? NO.

- top 12 for +/- among all dmen (Markov was 96th). Now can Komi compare to this? NO.

- top 17 for icetime among all dmen (Markov was 22nd). Now can Komi match this? NO.

- finished 63rd for hits among all dmen (Markov was 175th). Now can Komi compare with that, YES, but compared to the other stats mentioned above, it doesn't bring as much dough.

- finished 58th for blockshots among all dmen (Markov was 68th) Now can Komi compare to that? YES, but it still another category that IS NOT PAID OR RECOGNIZED as much as offensive stats.


Again, you want to play the comparison game, yet you both cherry pick a very bad comparison. Try Souray on for size. He blocks shots, hits, but brings much more points than Komi, and makes around 5,5 mil. He was also signed the same season as Hamr and Markov. All three were top 30 for points. Both Hammer and Markov were less productive than Souray but were both more solid defensively. But they all got about the same money. To even consider getting 5,5 mil, Komi would need to actually have much more points than he has. Do you even realize that contracts are usually based on the season before they are signed? That's why taking Hammer's contract as a comparison is totally ludicrous. You can actually use Markov's own contract, because he IS the one making the most money on the team and HE IS the most important player. No other player should make more than him, and those who sign close to what he gets, better have shown the same kinda numbers in the season before being signed, which is exactly what happened with Hammer.

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Old
02-05-2009, 10:06 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
For the last heffin time, the Hamrlik comparison is a waste and totally ridiculous. First off, Markov makes about 250k mroe than Hammer, so forget about Komi making more than Hammer because it would be too close to Markov's salary.

Now, do ANY of you two KNOW why Hamrlik got that amount??? Firstly, he was signed ON the market. Secondly, when they signed him, he was of Markov caliber in both offense (just a bit less) and defense and had more grit. They wanted to use Hammer as a Markov for the second pairing, and since he's been on the second pairing, his production has declined. Oh and that's the same season before Markov signed his own contract so I will add him to the comparison so you can actually UNDERSTAND why Hammer was signed to 5,5 mil per.

Just before Hammer signed with the Habs, he had finished his season :

- top 30 among all Dmen for points (Markov was 17th!!). Now can Komi match this? NO.

- top 12 for +/- among all dmen (Markov was 96th). Now can Komi compare to this? NO.

- top 17 for icetime among all dmen (Markov was 22nd). Now can Komi match this? NO.

- finished 63rd for hits among all dmen (Markov was 175th). Now can Komi compare with that, YES, but compared to the other stats mentioned above, it doesn't bring as much dough.

- finished 58th for blockshots among all dmen (Markov was 68th) Now can Komi compare to that? YES, but it still another category that IS NOT PAID OR RECOGNIZED as much as offensive stats.


Again, you want to play the comparison game, yet you both cherry pick a very bad comparison. Try Souray on for size. He blocks shots, hits, but brings much more points than Komi, and makes around 5,5 mil. He was also signed the same season as Hamr and Markov. All three were top 30 for points. Both Hammer and Markov were less productive than Souray but were both more solid defensively. But they all got about the same money. To even consider getting 5,5 mil, Komi would need to actually have much more points than he has. Do you even realize that contracts are usually based on the season before they are signed? That's why taking Hammer's contract as a comparison is totally ludicrous. You can actually use Markov's own contract, because he IS the one making the most money on the team and HE IS the most important player. No other player should make more than him, and those who sign close to what he gets, better have shown the same kinda numbers in the season before being signed, which is exactly what happened with Hammer.

ever crossed your mind that a top Defensive D was also worth a lot? It's not all about scoring points.

Now I'm not saying he should make more then Markov because he shouldnt. But as much a Hammer ? Oh Yes.

Different strokes for different folks.

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02-05-2009, 10:07 AM
  #186
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I like Komisarek a lot. In fact, I think he's the most valuable d-man we have (even moreso than Markov). I'd guess he's just floating high numbers aimed at establishing a good negotiating position.

Here are a couple of caveats, FWIW. Have you ever seen anyone get their shot blocked as often as big Mike? It's like he's aiming at the opposing players. He plays a style that's conducive to injury. Some guys in his mold have not aged well (Hatcher). He usually gets injuries to his upper body, that's a bonus since it's usually the big guys with chronic leg injuries that end up facing mobility issues down the road.

I'd have no issue with him being the highest paid d-man on the team. Not only do I think he's the most valuable d-man we have, but he'll sign his contract later than Markov/Hamrlik and in general contract salaries have gone up for d-men.

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02-05-2009, 10:09 AM
  #187
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4.5 seems resonable for mike komisarek as well as a 3-7 year deal anything beyond that is very risky.
I would agree.....in a sane world. But what's riskier is the fact that if you lose him 'cause another stupid GM is ready to go at 5.5/6, you would lose a guy for 1 million and may not have the chance to get another one since nobody wants to come....at least not at Komi's caliber.

People keep talking about the hometown discount, in Montreal you have to talk about the hometown overpayment. Now it might not be that problematic if our GM would sign players earlier.....before their last year or at least during the year....But let's say your a player and you're in February and there is tons of histories about ex-players that says that as great as the atmosphere is, there is other places than Montreal to play hockey....., wouldn't you at least wait to see what's available for you elsewhere even if it's just for fun? If so, isn't it possible that the fun becomes something else.....so why take the risk?

And if Souray who LOVED Montreal was happy to go back home, can Komisarek think that way as well? Can people acknowledge the difficulty in getting guys on the market as great as the overpayment seems to be? All rumors, but seemed that Gainey was always the highest bidder on some stars that were available and they still didn't want to play here. Komisarek has to stay. I believe Komisarek will stay. But you won't get him for 4/4.5 unless you are ready to sign him for 10 years which you shouldn't do for a guy who plays hard and really physical, block shots are always possible to be hurt, at least more than any other of our actual players. I prefer to go the 5M$/5.5M$ for 6 years than anything else.

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02-05-2009, 10:10 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
ever crossed your mind that a top Defensive D was also worth a lot? It's not all about scoring points.

Now I'm not saying he should make more then Markov because he shouldnt. But as much a Hammer ? Oh Yes.

Different strokes for different folks.
Sigh.... you still don't get why Hammer signed for that amount. HE WAS a TOP defensive D, besides having points. The same with Markov.

Komi is Hammer or Markov defensively, but without the offense, but with more grit.

Maybe you should take a look at what the other strictly defensive Ds make before saying he will make as much as Hammer.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 02-05-2009 at 10:20 AM.
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02-05-2009, 10:11 AM
  #189
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I have to agree with you on some points Ozy, but the comparison with Markov is also not accurate. Markov is close to a top 5 D in the league. He makes 5.75M while other comparable defensemen make close to 7M. Markov's salary can't be seen as a maximum because he is the best player on this team. I'm not saying that Komi is going to get more than Markov, but I think some people that only consider the fact that Komisarek is far from being of Markov's caliber, or Hammer's caliber, will be disapointed because he's not going to accept a long term deal at 4 M per season just like some of us hope.

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02-05-2009, 10:11 AM
  #190
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I would agree.....in a sane world. But what's riskier is the fact that if you lose him 'cause another stupid GM is ready to go at 5.5/6, you would lose a guy for 1 million and may not have the chance to get another one since nobody wants to come....at least not at Komi's caliber.

People keep talking about the hometown discount, in Montreal you have to talk about the hometown overpayment. Now it might not be that problematic if our GM would sign players earlier.....before their last year or at least during the year....But let's say your a player and you're in February and there is tons of histories about ex-players that says that as great as the atmosphere is, there is other places than Montreal to play hockey....., wouldn't you at least wait to see what's available for you elsewhere even if it's just for fun? If so, isn't it possible that the fun becomes something else.....so why take the risk?

And if Souray who LOVED Montreal was happy to go back home, can Komisarek think that way as well? Can people acknowledge the difficulty in getting guys on the market as great as the overpayment seems to be? All rumors, but seemed that Gainey was always the highest bidder on some stars that were available and they still didn't want to play here.
WTH??? Hometown overpayment??? Signing them earlier??? Markov says HELLO!!!

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02-05-2009, 10:15 AM
  #191
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With 16 hours of broadcast per day since 2 years, CKAC is running out of things to say. Seriously, the rumor of Brad Richards was so silly and this info about Komisarek is baseless and make no sense. Come on CKAC, dont think we are so dumb...

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02-05-2009, 10:18 AM
  #192
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I have to agree with you on some points Ozy, but the comparison with Markov is also not accurate. Markov is close to a top 5 D in the league. He makes 5.75M while other comparable defensemen make close to 7M. Markov's salary can't be seen as a maximum because he is the best player on this team. I'm not saying that Komi is going to get more than Markov, but I think some people that only consider the fact that Komisarek is far from being of Markov's caliber, or Hammer's caliber, will be disapointed because he's not going to accept a long term deal at 4 M per season just like some of us hope.
Maybe he will. The point is, he'll never get 6 mil. And I'm not the one who was saying 4mil either. Ever since last summer I've been saying he'll get in between 4,5 and 5,5, with the middle being the most likely. If BG manages to pull a great one, we could get him under 4,5, but it is unlikely. But people speculating that he might make close to 6 mil is just ridiculous. And 5,5 is the absolute maximum he would get, and in that case, I'm not even sure it would be his cap hit, which might be closer to 5 mil if BG does his job right.

Also, people tend to forget that BG will probably try to sign him outside the market before it even opens, so there will be no bidding war, or else BG will let him go. That's the simple logic.

Also, the comparison with Hammer and Markov does show something, and its that offensive stats is what brings Dmen the dough, not defensive stats. Even at 5 mil, Komi would set a precedent. That's why I believe its unlikely he'll get more than 5 mil of cap hit.

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02-05-2009, 10:20 AM
  #193
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Sigh.... you still don't get why Hammer signed for that amount. HE WAS a TOP defensive D, besides having points. The same with Markov.

Komi is Hammer or Markov defensively, but without the offense, but with more grit.

Maybe you should take a look at what the other defensive Ds make before saying he will make as much as Hammer.


Hamrlik might have some decent offensive skills, with 18 points so far this season, compare to Komisarek with 6. Tho, Komisarek is +6 and Hammer +5. No big difference but then you take a look at blocked shots and hits and you get pretty much the same value IMO.

In both cases, Montreal starts losing when one of these are injuried.

Now I know we are just saying the same thing. We both think Komi should stay and will stay. I just wouldnt have any problems seeing him paid as much as Hamrlik.

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02-05-2009, 10:26 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Maybe he will. The point is, he'll never get 6 mil. And I'm not the one who was saying 4mil either. Ever since last summer I've been saying he'll get in between 4,5 and 5,5, with the middle being the most likely. If BG manages to pull a great one, we could get him under 4,5, but it is unlikely. But people speculating that he might make close to 6 mil is just ridiculous .
5 M is what I expect too. If Gainey signs Komisarek at 4,5 or under that for a decent number of years, I'll forget every bad moves he has ever done. but that seems impossible with the actual salaries and the lack of good UFAs to sign this summer. I trust Mike's loyalty to the habs but on the other side, the guy could be one of the few good players available comes July. That would make his value skyrocket. The same might happen with a lot of other UFA, especially forwards and centers.

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02-05-2009, 10:28 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
Hamrlik might have some decent offensive skills, with 18 points so far this season, compare to Komisarek with 6. Tho, Komisarek is +6 and Hammer +5. No big difference but then you take a look at blocked shots and hits and you get pretty much the same value IMO.

In both cases, Montreal starts losing when one of these are injuried.

Now I know we are just saying the same thing. We both think Komi should stay and will stay. I just wouldnt have any problems seeing him paid as much as Hamrlik.
You are still comparing their stats FOR THIS SEASON. Hammer wasn't signed at the end of this season, his contract IS NOT BASED on this season. And its not about comparing their value versus the contract they should get, because Hammer could be playing at Markov's place on other teams and would have much better offensive stats, which he did before signing his contract.

For the rest we agree, but people should put the hammer comparison to rest, as it is non-sensical.

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5 M is what I expect too. If Gainey signs Komisarek at 4,5 or under that for a decent number of years, I'll forget every bad moves he has ever done. but that seems impossible with the actual salaries and the lack of good UFAs to sign this summer. I trust Mike's loyalty to the habs but on the other side, the guy could be one of the few good players available comes July. That would make his value skyrocket. The same might happen with a lot of other UFA, especially forwards and centers.
Hmmm, go take a look at the UFA list for this season, it isn't as bad as you say. Its actually decent. Somewhat similar to July 2007 when a lot of Dmen were up for grabs. Also, you still base this on the market, whereas Komi will be a priority and BG will want to sign him before July 1st. Its a question of respect and reciprocity. Komi knows that if he wants to stay here, they have to go through negociations before July 1st, or he'll be wasting a lot of BG's precious time. If Komi's agent convinces him to test the market, I fear it will be sayonara Komi. But I don't think this will happen. They both are of good faith towards each other.


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02-05-2009, 10:34 AM
  #196
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WTH??? Hometown overpayment??? Signing them earlier??? Markov says HELLO!!!
Well I say Hello back to Markov as well, still I would like it to become the trend instead of the exception. But then we'll see if the 110% rumor is founded...(can't believe I just said that...). Komi would have been signed already and they are waiting to announce it.

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02-05-2009, 10:44 AM
  #197
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Well I say Hello back to Markov as well, still I would like it to become the trend instead of the exception. But then we'll see if the 110% rumor is founded...(can't believe I just said that...). Komi would have been signed already and they are waiting to announce it.
He was not the exception, he was the priority. When a player is a priority, BG signs him to a discount before July 1st. That's not an exception, its been the rule since BG came in. When he makes a priority of one player, he usually gets it done without any overpayment, I should add. Koivu is another example. Pray tell some examples of hometown overpayments made by BG? Hammer was on the market, so he doesn't count. Kovalev was signed on the market and was stil lfair value. I don't see who you mean.

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02-05-2009, 10:57 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
He was not the exception, he was the priority. When a player is a priority, BG signs him to a discount before July 1st. That's not an exception, its been the rule since BG came in. When he makes a priority of one player, he usually gets it done without any overpayment, I should add. Koivu is another example. Pray tell some examples of hometown overpayments made by BG? Hammer was on the market, so he doesn't count. Kovalev was signed on the market and was stil lfair value. I don't see who you mean.
Well clearly I didn't make myself clear. I'm not talking about players we have to overpay to keep. But the guy was saying how we shouldn't go more than 4.5 and I'm saying that if Komisarek goes in the market and we're still interested in having him back, we're not going to get him while underpaying him AND mostly my reference about "hometown overpayment" is mostly about the other players that will be in the market that we would need to go after if we let Komi go for a difference of 1 million. Not the right expression, I know but that's what I meant and actually explained it in my last paragraph. Again, i understand the confusion though.

As far as Markov being the priority, well I believe that's exactly what Komisarek is.

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02-05-2009, 11:08 AM
  #199
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Well clearly I didn't make myself clear. I'm not talking about players we have to overpay to keep. But the guy was saying how we shouldn't go more than 4.5 and I'm saying that if Komisarek goes in the market and we're still interested in having him back, we're not going to get him while underpaying him AND mostly my reference about "hometown overpayment" is mostly about the other players that will be in the market that we would need to go after if we let Komi go for a difference of 1 million. Not the right expression, I know but that's what I meant and actually explained it in my last paragraph. Again, i understand the confusion though.

As far as Markov being the priority, well I believe that's exactly what Komisarek is.
Yeah, me too, and that's why I believe he'll be signed well before July 1st, if Komi doesn,t let his agent get to his head, which I don't think is likely seeing the humble upbringings of Komi, and how management was very supportive of him when he went through his Mom's death. That's actually what I like the most about BG besides his patience. He has molded a culture of trust and loyalty in the club and that's why players like Markov stayed here when he could've got more from a team like Washington while joining his buddy Ovy. I wasn't scared of losing Markov then and I'm scared even less about Komi this time around.

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02-05-2009, 11:57 AM
  #200
RoyBoyCoy
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I want 27mil over 6yrs plz

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