HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Arizona Coyotes
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Coyotes Financial Situation aka Show Me the Money Thread #2

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-17-2009, 10:56 PM
  #101
Naych_PHX
Are you, kidding me?
 
Naych_PHX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: phoenix
Posts: 5,670
vCash: 500
What exactly is the deal with the lease situation? I keep hearing about it. Do the Coyotes just pay too much to Glendale to use the arena or is there more to it?

Naych_PHX is offline  
Old
02-17-2009, 11:10 PM
  #102
FutureGM97
Registered User
 
FutureGM97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Connecticut, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 6,832
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to FutureGM97
At least it will be a positive buy...

FutureGM97 is offline  
Old
02-17-2009, 11:13 PM
  #103
bobbop
Henrik's Pop
 
bobbop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Suburban Phoenix
Country: United States
Posts: 4,837
vCash: 500
This is very promising. The Canadian press seems to be on top of this much moreso than The Repulsive. As someone who moved to the west side of Phoenix partly because of the Coyotes, this is a big relief. I just hope whomever is kicking the tires has money, patience and guts. This could ultimately be a very good situation here.

bobbop is offline  
Old
02-17-2009, 11:36 PM
  #104
SniperHF
Global Moderator
destination unknown
 
SniperHF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 15,040
vCash: 500
I'm glad there is interest. This would be the rallying move on the financial side that would ensure stability and ease minds. Hopefully this can lead to on ice success next season.

I don't buy the smoke and mirrors arguments about this team when they were in 5th. I think they showed something the first half but need some tweaking. Only when these financial issues are put to bed will the team be able to start making moves for next year like resigning guys.

SniperHF is online now  
Old
02-18-2009, 12:53 AM
  #105
2yotesfans88
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naych_PHX View Post
What exactly is the deal with the lease situation? I keep hearing about it. Do the Coyotes just pay too much to Glendale to use the arena or is there more to it?
I just did a quick search and could not find the article. it may have even been on espn.com. but whatever. there are prob a few out there if anyone knows of one that sums up the lease and why its bad can you post...

one think that jumped out at me is that the yotes pay something like 1 or 2 bucks per car per game to the city. i mean i could be wrong. and they pay for alot of stuff but dont get anything out of concert rev.

on the article...at this point any news is good news. i was sick of hearing about a DISPERSMENT draft by the idoit on HNIC. not like he said it alot but once is enought

2yotesfans88 is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 01:03 AM
  #106
CoyotesIce99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 707
vCash: 500
Bruckheimer has been mentioned as one of the possible owners in the past. I wonder if Gretzky knows him from LA.
I just hope he is very rich.
It would be nice if the Coyotes have owners who are billionaire.
Not trying to be greedy.
It would be wonderful for the Coyotes to have money to go shopping on July1.

CoyotesIce99 is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 07:54 AM
  #107
TeamTippett
Formally TeamTurris
 
TeamTippett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Phx
Country: United States
Posts: 5,325
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
This is very promising. The Canadian press seems to be on top of this much moreso than The Repulsive. As someone who moved to the west side of Phoenix partly because of the Coyotes, this is a big relief. I just hope whomever is kicking the tires has money, patience and guts. This could ultimately be a very good situation here.
I bought a home on the western side as well to be near the team.

TeamTippett is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 08:05 AM
  #108
Agalloch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Lachute, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,732
vCash: 500
Good news for the Yotes. I hope the team will stay in Phoenix long term.

Agalloch is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 08:32 AM
  #109
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naych_PHX View Post
What exactly is the deal with the lease situation? I keep hearing about it. Do the Coyotes just pay too much to Glendale to use the arena or is there more to it?
I had several posts in the first iteration of this thread with lease details and links. Here's a summary of what I was able to find:

- Team fully operates the arena
- Annual lease is slightly over $500k
- Team pays Glendale ~$2.5 per ticket for parking to all arena events. Estimates were this is about $2.5mil/year. Not completely clear if that includes only tickets sold or all tickets available for each event.
- Only other $ Glendale collects are standard sales taxes on tickets & merchandise (2.2%), which probably total less than $1mil/year.


We don't have the specific details of the lease concessions ownership was seeking, but they probably focus on increasing revenue to the team.

mouser is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 09:03 AM
  #110
zz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,683
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
I had several posts in the first iteration of this thread with lease details and links. Here's a summary of what I was able to find:

- Team fully operates the arena
- Annual lease is slightly over $500k
- Team pays Glendale ~$2.5 per ticket for parking to all arena events. Estimates were this is about $2.5mil/year. Not completely clear if that includes only tickets sold or all tickets available for each event.
- Only other $ Glendale collects are standard sales taxes on tickets & merchandise (2.2%), which probably total less than $1mil/year.


We don't have the specific details of the lease concessions ownership was seeking, but they probably focus on increasing revenue to the team.
Again, this is a sweet deal. Even if the city was to waive the parking fee and lease, the team would only save $ 3 M, or only 10% of their annual losses. Not the kind of thing that will suddenly spark buyer interest.

The negotiations HAD to revolve around the possibility of the team moving. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense. I could see the penalty being lowered to a fraction of what it is today after a few years. Something like if the coyotes are not profitable within 2 to 3 years, ownership can take the team elsewhere for less than $100 M. It gives new owners options, and the city of Glendale gets more out of the deal than they would via bankruptcy.

zz is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 10:14 AM
  #111
bobbop
Henrik's Pop
 
bobbop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Suburban Phoenix
Country: United States
Posts: 4,837
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz View Post
The negotiations HAD to revolve around the possibility of the team moving. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense. I could see the penalty being lowered to a fraction of what it is today after a few years. Something like if the coyotes are not profitable within 2 to 3 years, ownership can take the team elsewhere for less than $100 M. It gives new owners options, and the city of Glendale gets more out of the deal than they would via bankruptcy.
The penalty, which the exact amount is a closely guarded secret, is somewhere in the neighborhood of $700MM. It was set ridiculously high because the city took an incredible gamble in buyilding the arena. While the city may have some flexibility here, you can bet it won't be coming down to $100MM -- it will still be in place to make sure there is a very strong deterrent to moving the team. Glendale and the west valley has an awful lot riding on this building and team being successful.

bobbop is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 10:26 AM
  #112
TeamTippett
Formally TeamTurris
 
TeamTippett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Phx
Country: United States
Posts: 5,325
vCash: 500
The City of Glendale will still protect their $200m investment in that building. Whatever happens the Coyotes have to:
1) field a winning team which the City has no part in and shouldn't have to be penalized for
2) Whatever the walk-away penalty is it's in essence the Coyotes purchasing the building to walk away, which doesn't make business sense.

I don't think the City should have to budge from that $700 m figure, they have ever right to protect that building and the key role it plays in development out there. If it was a bad deal the Coyotes shouldn't have signed it and stayed at AWA. It's not the Cities fault the team has been wretched for years.

TeamTippett is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 10:26 AM
  #113
Alberta Yote
Owns the Yotes
 
Alberta Yote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In your kitchen
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,697
vCash: 500
If the City can do something to make sure the team sticks around for another 3-5 years and still have a penalty big enough to get back their initial investment less what has been recovered by that time, why wouldn't they at least consider it? They would be able to say the deal is still protecting the tax payers.

The options for them aren't very good.

Alberta Yote is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 11:46 AM
  #114
Ghosthoffa
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Surprise, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 952
vCash: 500
ideally if the new owner can pay off the debt load this team would be profitable and if the reports are true and the team can be had just by assuming the debt load it wouldn't be unrealistic to think that a new owner would pay the debt down or off to start making money.

by the way Bruckheimer is worht approx $85 million

Link

Ghosthoffa is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 11:56 AM
  #115
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,958
vCash: 500
I really hope you guys figure it all out, you have a great arena and a decent young team.

Do you think you would have better attendance if it was closer to the phoenix or is it simply that the team hasnt been very good?

one2gamble is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 12:03 PM
  #116
Ghosthoffa
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Surprise, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
I really hope you guys figure it all out, you have a great arena and a decent young team.

Do you think you would have better attendance if it was closer to the phoenix or is it simply that the team hasnt been very good?
attendance might be slightly higher but I doubt it would be a largely noticeable difference, Glendale is only like 18 miles from where the Coyotes used to play. all freeway drive time too. The biggest plague is that phoenix is a front running town, always has been

Ghosthoffa is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 12:09 PM
  #117
Alberta Yote
Owns the Yotes
 
Alberta Yote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In your kitchen
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosthoffa View Post
ideally if the new owner can pay off the debt load this team would be profitable and if the reports are true and the team can be had just by assuming the debt load it wouldn't be unrealistic to think that a new owner would pay the debt down or off to start making money.

by the way Bruckheimer is worht approx $85 million

Link
If that's true, and I'd guess it is substantially higher than that based on nothing in particular, he'd better have 10 or 15 more guys just as wealthy as him to be considering this deal.

The last thing that this team needs is someone who can't afford to come in and have the patience and the payroll room to make the team competitive.

Alberta Yote is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 12:11 PM
  #118
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,874
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz View Post
Again, this is a sweet deal. Even if the city was to waive the parking fee and lease, the team would only save $ 3 M, or only 10% of their annual losses. Not the kind of thing that will suddenly spark buyer interest.
That's not necessarily correct. It all depends on what the true hockey operations loss is without including interest or other non-hockey related expenses that might not transfer from Moyes to the new owner. If a substantial portion of the claimed $30mil is due to items like interest payments the new owner could choose to simply pay off the debt and not incur those interest payments.

My personal calcs suggest the hockey operation loss is probably around $10mil. If that were accurate then the $3m in concessions becomes 30%. Suppose the concessions went even further and turned parking into a $2m revenue generator instead of -$2.5mil drain, then you're talking 50% of the operating loss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zz View Post
The negotiations HAD to revolve around the possibility of the team moving. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense. I could see the penalty being lowered to a fraction of what it is today after a few years. Something like if the coyotes are not profitable within 2 to 3 years, ownership can take the team elsewhere for less than $100 M. It gives new owners options, and the city of Glendale gets more out of the deal than they would via bankruptcy.
If the concessions could be in the 30% to 50% of operating loss range would it make sense?

mouser is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 12:23 PM
  #119
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,874
vCash: 500
On a related note, I think I have an explanation for the "how much is Gretzky making?" conundrum.

- 2001: Gretzky partners with Moyes and Ellman to purchase the Coyotes.

- 2006/Apr: Moyes and Ellman split up assets, Gretzky maintains ownership in both asset pools.

- 2006/May: Gretzky signs a 5 year contract to coach the Coyotes.


Gretzky very likely has two independent deals/contracts.
- One with Moyes as a part owner which dates back to 2001 and may have been amended in the April 2006 split.
- A second contract as head coach for the team.

It very well could be completely true that he's making ~$7mil/year between the two contracts, but only average coaching salary on the second deal. Gretzky's doesn't flat out say he has two different deals, but his comments support that interpretation.

That would also imply that Gretz may or may not retain an ownership stake after the team is bought. Even if he does, whatever his first deal contains could be re-opened for new negotiations.

mouser is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 12:48 PM
  #120
amjay13
Registered User
 
amjay13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosthoffa View Post
attendance might be slightly higher but I doubt it would be a largely noticeable difference, Glendale is only like 18 miles from where the Coyotes used to play. all freeway drive time too. The biggest plague is that phoenix is a front running town, always has been
If the arena was in Scottsdale, attendance would not be a problem. The majority of the money and the majority of the fan base are on the east side of town.

amjay13 is online now  
Old
02-18-2009, 12:57 PM
  #121
AzYotes18
 
AzYotes18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 210
vCash: 500
I disagree that attendance would be more if it was in Scottsdale. I think the coyotes would still be in this financial situation.

The last time they had crazy attendance was from the last few years the yotes were in the playoffs...

It comes down to winning............

thats a fact in every single sport in every place....

Win games, and people will show up to watch.

AzYotes18 is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 01:02 PM
  #122
Ghosthoffa
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Surprise, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
If the arena was in Scottsdale, attendance would not be a problem. The majority of the money and the majority of the fan base are on the east side of town.
False

Ghosthoffa is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 01:03 PM
  #123
Ghosthoffa
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Surprise, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 952
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzYotes18 View Post
I disagree that attendance would be more if it was in Scottsdale. I think the coyotes would still be in this financial situation.

The last time they had crazy attendance was from the last few years the yotes were in the playoffs...

It comes down to winning............

thats a fact in every single sport in every place....

Win games, and people will show up to watch.
Agreed, I think for fans that would come from the east valley you would see many from the westside who would not

Ghosthoffa is offline  
Old
02-18-2009, 01:05 PM
  #124
amjay13
Registered User
 
amjay13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzYotes18 View Post
I disagree that attendance would be more if it was in Scottsdale. I think the coyotes would still be in this financial situation.

The last time they had crazy attendance was from the last few years the yotes were in the playoffs...

It comes down to winning............

thats a fact in every single sport in every place....

Win games, and people will show up to watch.

The Yotes might have been in financial trouble but I don't think one can dispute that the attendance would be higher in Scottsdale than it is in Glendale.

I personally would be a season ticket holder if the stadium was on this side of town. Instead I go to about 3 games per year. I know several others who had season tickets downtown but don't anymore.

I hope the Yotes do well over there but I think the Yotes died the day they broke ground on the stadium in Glendale. Great building, bad spot for valley hockey fans.

amjay13 is online now  
Old
02-18-2009, 01:06 PM
  #125
amjay13
Registered User
 
amjay13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosthoffa View Post
Agreed, I think for fans that would come from the east valley you would see many from the westside who would not
Perhaps, but not as many.

Are you saying that the money and the majority of the fan base are NOT on the east side?

amjay13 is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:22 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.