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Top 10 in Scoring & Selke Voting

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Old
06-19-2009, 09:31 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
Am I the only one that doesnt like Datsyuk's Selke trophies? He's hardly a terrible defensive player but watching him play I think his winning is just as bad as Sakic finishing runner up.
Datsyuk winning the Selke feels a bit like someone voting for say Rafalski over Lidstrom for the Norris. Zetterberg is, and has been, Babcock's primary defensive weapon up front. Whenever they get put together Pavel has joked that he likes playing on Z's wing because he doesn't have to worry so much about defense. It's not so much that Pavel isn't worthy, but that a guy on his own team is even better.

EDIT - maybe the Raf analogy is a bit strong. Say '02 with Lidstrom and Chelios. Nick was #1 and Cheli #2.

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06-19-2009, 09:57 PM
  #27
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Retro Selke Concept

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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Retro Selke & scoring rank
- Frank Nighbor (1920): 2nd
- Frank Nighbor (1921): 3rd
- Frank Nighbor (1926): 8th
- Frank Boucher (1929): 6th
- Neil Colville (1941): 7th
- Claude Provost (1965): 6th
- Stan Mikita (1968): 1st (**wins Art Ross and wins retro Selke)
- Bobby Clarke (1974): 5th
- Bobby Clarke (1975): 6th

Obviously there is no voting data available for the retro Selkes. Many players, both on and off this list, had several seasons that would qualify for my list in the first post.
Interesting concept but has to be balanced with rule changes. Forward passing in the offensive zone was not allowed until the start of the 1929-30* season. Also until the 1929-30* it was allowed to stack the defensive zone with more than three players even when the puck was no longer in the defensive zone.

Offsides as we know them today were not defined until the 1930-31 season ** and the center red line was introduced for the start of the 1943-44 season***.

All of these changes factored speed, strategy and stamina into the game and changed the definition of defensive play especially for forwards.

Trail of the Stanley Cup Volume II, * = p 82, ** = p 109, *** = p 474

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06-19-2009, 10:09 PM
  #28
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That doesn't really change who the best defensive players of the time were, or the best offensive players, for that matter. Hockey has always evolved. As rules changed, the best were still the best.

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06-19-2009, 10:27 PM
  #29
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The Rest of the Equation

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That doesn't really change who the best defensive players of the time were, or the best offensive players, for that matter. Hockey has always evolved. As rules changed, the best were still the best.
Does not change the who alot BUT certainly impacts on the how, why, when, where part of the equation.

As for the last sentence it is demonstrably false.Speed became a greater factor as opposed to positional savy and tactics.

The performance of individual players varied significantly. George Hainsworth was outstanding in the pre 1929-30 era but very good-excellent afterwards.Not all goalies were able to adapt equally to the forward passing. Cooney Weiland had a great season until minor rule tweaks eliminated a strategic advantage. Not all goaltenders adapted once forwards were allowed to act as screens and this of course impacted on the on the responsibilities, stats and evaluations of forwards.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 06-20-2009 at 06:07 AM. Reason: typo
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Old
06-20-2009, 03:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Does not change the who alot BUT certainly impacts on the how, why, when, where part of the equation.

As for the last sentence it is demonstrably false.Speed became a greater factor as opposed to positional savy and tactics.

The performance of individual players varied significantly. George Hainsworth was outstanding in the pre 1929-30 era but very good-excellent afterwards.Not all goalies were able to adapt equakky to the forward passing. Cooney Weiland had a great season until minor rule tweaks eliminated a strategic advantage. Not all goaltenders adapted once forwards were allowed to act as screens and this of course impacted on the on the responsibilities, stats and evaluations of forwards.

- Hainsworth was getting pretty old by then already. And if you believe hart voting and the unofficial all-star teams voted on by the GMs, he was not the best goalie in the league before then.

- Weiland scored a lot less after that, but so did everyone else. He still ended up at the top of the pile at the end of the year. Do we have evidence showing that his offense dried up by 60% while the average player declined 20% in the second half of that season?

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06-20-2009, 04:59 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
Datsyuk winning the Selke feels a bit like someone voting for say Rafalski over Lidstrom for the Norris. Zetterberg is, and has been, Babcock's primary defensive weapon up front. Whenever they get put together Pavel has joked that he likes playing on Z's wing because he doesn't have to worry so much about defense. It's not so much that Pavel isn't worthy, but that a guy on his own team is even better.

EDIT - maybe the Raf analogy is a bit strong. Say '02 with Lidstrom and Chelios. Nick was #1 and Cheli #2.
If Rafalski = Datsyuk, then Datsyuk is playing defense like Hudler.

And one reason, why Babcock uses Zetterberg is that Datsyuk plays with Homer. So, you want Homer shutting down guys like Nash and Perry, or screening goalies?

Datsyuk is as good as Zetterberg. Their styles are just very different.

But I know, that you are a huge Z fan, so it's actually pointless to tell you all that.

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06-20-2009, 06:20 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
If Rafalski = Datsyuk, then Datsyuk is playing defense like Hudler.

And one reason, why Babcock uses Zetterberg is that Datsyuk plays with Homer. So, you want Homer shutting down guys like Nash and Perry, or screening goalies?

Datsyuk is as good as Zetterberg. Their styles are just very different.

But I know, that you are a huge Z fan, so it's actually pointless to tell you all that.
I haven't watched much of the Wings in the regular season recently, but I've watched most of the games of their last 2 playoff runs. And at least in the playoffs, Zetterberg is always the primary defensive player the Wings use, whether it be 5 on 3, or at against the other team's top line at even strength.

But Datsyuk has the +/- and takeaway stats, so he gets the votes.

Another player who got Selke votes but shouldn't have was Zach Parise. There were 7 Devils forwards who saw significant PK time last year - Madden, Pandolfo, Gionta, Elias, Shanahan, Zajac, and Langenbrunner. And yet it was Parise who recieved 2 first place votes for Selke, based I'm sure on the fact that he scored a lot of points while having a good +/- (no better than his linemates Zajac and Langenbrunner, but he did score more than them!). Overall, he finshed 8th. Zajac finished 7th with no first place votes, but I would say that was well deserved. He was the defensive conscience who allowed Parise to play in front of the net so often.

I can't sleep tonight (this morning?) and I just had a crazy idea - The Selke voting would probably be better if each team selected a candidate to be voted on, much like the Masterdon award. Then Detroit could have picked Zetterberg and the Devils could have picked Zajac. Or maybe not the team itself, but the local writers who theoretically actually watch the team?

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06-20-2009, 06:53 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I can't sleep tonight (this morning?) and I just had a crazy idea - The Selke voting would probably be better if each team selected a candidate to be voted on, much like the Masterdon award. Then Detroit could have picked Zetterberg and the Devils could have picked Zajac. Or maybe not the team itself, but the local writers who theoretically actually watch the team?
You know, that's not a crazy idea at all. In fact, it might legitimize a lot of the voted awards. Selke and Hart especially. Norris and Vezina not so much, as you could probably disregard half of the teams' entry right off the bat, but still. I have disagreed with the narrowed-down candidates list before, and I probably will again. If the candidate list was comprised of team-elected nominees though, it would be harder to argue. And it would be better, imo, if the nominee list wasn't whittled down to a 3 candidate ballot before the voters had their say, but oh well.

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06-20-2009, 07:29 AM
  #34
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Hainsworth / Weiland

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- Hainsworth was getting pretty old by then already. And if you believe hart voting and the unofficial all-star teams voted on by the GMs, he was not the best goalie in the league before then.

- Weiland scored a lot less after that, but so did everyone else. He still ended up at the top of the pile at the end of the year. Do we have evidence showing that his offense dried up by 60% while the average player declined 20% in the second half of that season?
George Hainsworth played thru the 1936-37 season, almost until the age of 42. The 1929-30 season was his weakest from the GAA standpoint and while getting older afterwards he managed to adapt.

Cooney Weiland.See his stats.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...weilaco01.html

Once the offside rule eliminated the early tactical advantage he had "As the rules now stood it was possible for one or more opposing to cross their opponents' blueline ahead of the puck and take up a strategic position close to the goal in anticipation of a pass from a teammate following with the puck.Certain players had become very adept at this procedure, notably Cooney Weiland and Nels Stewart who were practically setting up in light housekeeping at the side of the goal crease."*

The rules were tweaked 30% of the way into the season - after 66 games. First 66 games saw 7.06 GPG,last 154 games saw 5.42 GPG, global 5.91 GPG.

Weiland scored 43 of the Bruins 179 goals,with the Weiland /Clapper/Gainor line accounting for 102 of the 179 goals.The following season with the offside rule in force Weiland scored 25 of his teams 143 goals while the same line accounted for 55 of the 143.Global GPG were down to 4.79 while the Bruins went from 4.07 GPG to 3.25. Regardless of the comparison Weiland's decline outpaced the league or Bruins scoring and it continued as he never topped 16 goals in a regular season and was gone from Boston.

* = p87 The Trail of the Stanley Cup Vol II.

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Old
06-20-2009, 07:37 AM
  #35
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I haven't watched much of the Wings in the regular season recently, but I've watched most of the games of their last 2 playoff runs. And at least in the playoffs, Zetterberg is always the primary defensive player the Wings use, whether it be 5 on 3, or at against the other team's top line at even strength.

But Datsyuk has the +/- and takeaway stats, so he gets the votes.

Another player who got Selke votes but shouldn't have was Zach Parise. There were 7 Devils forwards who saw significant PK time last year - Madden, Pandolfo, Gionta, Elias, Shanahan, Zajac, and Langenbrunner. And yet it was Parise who recieved 2 first place votes for Selke, based I'm sure on the fact that he scored a lot of points while having a good +/- (no better than his linemates Zajac and Langenbrunner, but he did score more than them!). Overall, he finshed 8th. Zajac finished 7th with no first place votes, but I would say that was well deserved. He was the defensive conscience who allowed Parise to play in front of the net so often.

I can't sleep tonight (this morning?) and I just had a crazy idea - The Selke voting would probably be better if each team selected a candidate to be voted on, much like the Masterdon award. Then Detroit could have picked Zetterberg and the Devils could have picked Zajac. Or maybe not the team itself, but the local writers who theoretically actually watch the team?
Yes, Babcock uses mainly Zetterberg. But as I said before, one reason has to be Holmstrom. And objectively Datsyuk is better at creating offense, than anybody else in Detroit (including Zetterberg). So, why use Datsyuk only as a shutdown guy? No point at all. And those takeaways mean something, at least when he's head and shoulders above everybody else. +- is tricky, but it's shows also something, when we are comparing team-mates.

And Datsyuk can kill 5 on 3. Look at a game against the Ducks, when Zetterberg was in the box. Datsyuk was monster during that kill.

Datsyuk plays defense a lot like Lidstrom. He uses his stick like nobody else in the league. I even read somewhere, that he picked up that stick-work from Lidstrom, which is logical.

Selke is very hard to judge. And again, we don't have the absolutely best defensive forward in the world. We have an elite group. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Richards, Koivu, Kesler and some other. Datsyuk delivers better stats (plusminus, takeaways) and that's why he has won it twice. And he have deserved it both times. But he is not better than those other elite guys. But he is not worse either.

Same thing with offense. Who is the best offensive forward in the world? Ovechkin? Malkin? Crosby? Pick your poison!

I must say I really like your idea about teams picking the nominee.

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06-20-2009, 08:11 AM
  #36
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Good Defense = Variety

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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Yes, Babcock uses mainly Zetterberg. But as I said before, one reason has to be Holmstrom. And objectively Datsyuk is better at creating offense, than anybody else in Detroit (including Zetterberg). So, why use Datsyuk only as a shutdown guy? No point at all. And those takeaways mean something, at least when he's head and shoulders above everybody else. +- is tricky, but it's shows also something, when we are comparing team-mates.

And Datsyuk can kill 5 on 3. Look at a game against the Ducks, when Zetterberg was in the box. Datsyuk was monster during that kill.

Datsyuk plays defense a lot like Lidstrom. He uses his stick like nobody else in the league. I even read somewhere, that he picked up that stick-work from Lidstrom, which is logical.

Selke is very hard to judge. And again, we don't have the absolutely best defensive forward in the world. We have an elite group. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Richards, Koivu, Kesler and some other. Datsyuk delivers better stats (plusminus, takeaways) and that's why he has won it twice. And he have deserved it both times. But he is not better than those other elite guys. But he is not worse either.

Same thing with offense. Who is the best offensive forward in the world? Ovechkin? Malkin? Crosby? Pick your poison!

I must say I really like your idea about teams picking the nominee.
The team nominee idea and the either or approach to defining defensive abilities goes against some of the basic ideas behind good defensive play.

Will start with a historic example. Bobby Orr and the great Bruin teams he played on NEVER beat the Canadiens in the playoffs losing three series (winning only 5 of 17 games in the process). Main reason being that the Canadiens were able to play to elite defensive centers against OR - Beliveau(LHS) and Henri Richard(RHS) who provided different defensive "looks", abilities, skills, strategies, etc. The key is to make the opposing players think and create an air of uncertainty everytime they are on the ice.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Collectively they are better defensively then the sum of their defensive skills EVEN if they are not playing together on the same shift. Their value is in the variety they bring and this forces the other teams stars to adapt and think on every shift. Factor in Cleary, Draper and their contributions, the energy of Helm, backend support and you have great team defense.

The team nominee concept assumes that the team would be willing to divulge their defensive strategies and objectives. Most are happy to let others misinterpret them.

BTW - the Koivu listed above should not be Saku. Way too many hooking,holding,interference type penalties, has problems against RHS centers and not as sound positionally as other centers.

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06-20-2009, 08:20 AM
  #37
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BTW - the Koivu listed above should not be Saku. Way too many hooking,holding,interference type penalties, has problems against RHS centers and not as sound positionally as other centers.
I'm pretty sure he meant Mikko who has become one of the hardest players to play against.

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06-20-2009, 08:33 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The team nominee idea and the either or approach to defining defensive abilities goes against some of the basic ideas behind good defensive play.

Will start with a historic example. Bobby Orr and the great Bruin teams he played on NEVER beat the Canadiens in the playoffs losing three series (winning only 5 of 17 games in the process). Main reason being that the Canadiens were able to play to elite defensive centers against OR - Beliveau(LHS) and Henri Richard(RHS) who provided different defensive "looks", abilities, skills, strategies, etc. The key is to make the opposing players think and create an air of uncertainty everytime they are on the ice.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Collectively they are better defensively then the sum of their defensive skills EVEN if they are not playing together on the same shift. Their value is in the variety they bring and this forces the other teams stars to adapt and think on every shift. Factor in Cleary, Draper and their contributions, the energy of Helm, backend support and you have great team defense.

The team nominee concept assumes that the team would be willing to divulge their defensive strategies and objectives. Most are happy to let others misinterpret them.

BTW - the Koivu listed above should not be Saku. Way too many hooking,holding,interference type penalties, has problems against RHS centers and not as sound positionally as other centers.
So maybe we should not give out a Selke at all. How can you pick only one guy, if it's all about team defense?

And Koivu is obviously Mikko, who belongs in the same category with those other guys.

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06-20-2009, 08:51 AM
  #39
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The Key Element

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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
So maybe we should not give out a Selke at all. How can you pick only one guy, if it's all about team defense?

And Koivu is obviously Mikko, who belongs in the same category with those other guys.
I view the Selke as representing an overall perception of which player is the key element - the glue that holds things together, the player you want out there against the other teams best player protecting a one goal lead in the last minute

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06-20-2009, 09:21 AM
  #40
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I haven't watched much of the Wings in the regular season recently, but I've watched most of the games of their last 2 playoff runs. And at least in the playoffs, Zetterberg is always the primary defensive player the Wings use, whether it be 5 on 3, or at against the other team's top line at even strength.

But Datsyuk has the +/- and takeaway stats, so he gets the votes.

Another player who got Selke votes but shouldn't have was Zach Parise. There were 7 Devils forwards who saw significant PK time last year - Madden, Pandolfo, Gionta, Elias, Shanahan, Zajac, and Langenbrunner. And yet it was Parise who recieved 2 first place votes for Selke, based I'm sure on the fact that he scored a lot of points while having a good +/- (no better than his linemates Zajac and Langenbrunner, but he did score more than them!). Overall, he finshed 8th. Zajac finished 7th with no first place votes, but I would say that was well deserved. He was the defensive conscience who allowed Parise to play in front of the net so often.

I can't sleep tonight (this morning?) and I just had a crazy idea - The Selke voting would probably be better if each team selected a candidate to be voted on, much like the Masterdon award. Then Detroit could have picked Zetterberg and the Devils could have picked Zajac. Or maybe not the team itself, but the local writers who theoretically actually watch the team?
Has Madden really slipped that much? I always felt he should have won more Selke's than he did. To me he was the best defesnive forward in the game when he was in his prime.

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06-20-2009, 10:59 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
George Hainsworth played thru the 1936-37 season, almost until the age of 42. The 1929-30 season was his weakest from the GAA standpoint and while getting older afterwards he managed to adapt.

Cooney Weiland.See his stats.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...weilaco01.html

Once the offside rule eliminated the early tactical advantage he had "As the rules now stood it was possible for one or more opposing to cross their opponents' blueline ahead of the puck and take up a strategic position close to the goal in anticipation of a pass from a teammate following with the puck.Certain players had become very adept at this procedure, notably Cooney Weiland and Nels Stewart who were practically setting up in light housekeeping at the side of the goal crease."*

The rules were tweaked 30% of the way into the season - after 66 games. First 66 games saw 7.06 GPG,last 154 games saw 5.42 GPG, global 5.91 GPG.

Weiland scored 43 of the Bruins 179 goals,with the Weiland /Clapper/Gainor line accounting for 102 of the 179 goals.The following season with the offside rule in force Weiland scored 25 of his teams 143 goals while the same line accounted for 55 of the 143.Global GPG were down to 4.79 while the Bruins went from 4.07 GPG to 3.25. Regardless of the comparison Weiland's decline outpaced the league or Bruins scoring and it continued as he never topped 16 goals in a regular season and was gone from Boston.

* = p87 The Trail of the Stanley Cup Vol II.
Just one thing; Hainsworth's 1930 season was not his weakest. It was his highest GAA, but he was 3rd that season. He was 4th, 6th, 7th in other seasons so I'd consider those ones worse.

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06-20-2009, 11:08 AM
  #42
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I view the Selke as representing an overall perception of which player is the key element - the glue that holds things together, the player you want out there against the other teams best player protecting a one goal lead in the last minute
I agree.


And for the Wings that guy is Zetterberg, with Datsyuk a close second.

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06-20-2009, 12:41 PM
  #43
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I view the Selke as representing an overall perception of which player is the key element - the glue that holds things together, the player you want out there against the other teams best player protecting a one goal lead in the last minute
So, reputation above actual performance? Completely disagree.

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06-20-2009, 01:12 PM
  #44
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So, reputation above actual performance? Completely disagree.
Never said or implied what you allege.

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06-20-2009, 02:00 PM
  #45
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i would also agree that zetterberg is a better defensive player than datsyuk.

datsyuk is very good, but zetterberg is great.



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Originally Posted by lazerbullet View Post
Yes, Babcock uses mainly Zetterberg. But as I said before, one reason has to be Holmstrom. And objectively Datsyuk is better at creating offense, than anybody else in Detroit (including Zetterberg). So, why use Datsyuk only as a shutdown guy? No point at all. And those takeaways mean something, at least when he's head and shoulders above everybody else. +- is tricky, but it's shows also something, when we are comparing team-mates.

And Datsyuk can kill 5 on 3. Look at a game against the Ducks, when Zetterberg was in the box. Datsyuk was monster during that kill.

Datsyuk plays defense a lot like Lidstrom. He uses his stick like nobody else in the league. I even read somewhere, that he picked up that stick-work from Lidstrom, which is logical.

Selke is very hard to judge. And again, we don't have the absolutely best defensive forward in the world. We have an elite group. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Richards, Koivu, Kesler and some other. Datsyuk delivers better stats (plusminus, takeaways) and that's why he has won it twice. And he have deserved it both times. But he is not better than those other elite guys. But he is not worse either.

Same thing with offense. Who is the best offensive forward in the world? Ovechkin? Malkin? Crosby? Pick your poison!

I must say I really like your idea about teams picking the nominee.
datsyuk has been used as the main defensive F even with holmstrom.

when datsyuk and holmstrom played with franzen, they were the main checking line. zetterberg was with hossa and cleary.



i think zetterberg is more like lidstrom than datsyuk is.
imo, zetterberg's positioning, like lidstrom's, is 2nd to none. like lidstrom, zetterberg is not very physical, less physical than datsyuk.

datsyuk uses his stick very well, probably better than zetterberg does, but his body positioning is not as good.

imo, the main difference between datsyuk and zetterberg in defensive play is that datsyuk is more offensive-minded. i think that is the main reason why datsyuk's positioning is not as good as zetterberg's. datsyuk is too often looking to counterattack.


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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I haven't watched much of the Wings in the regular season recently, but I've watched most of the games of their last 2 playoff runs. And at least in the playoffs, Zetterberg is always the primary defensive player the Wings use, whether it be 5 on 3, or at against the other team's top line at even strength.

But Datsyuk has the +/- and takeaway stats, so he gets the votes.

Another player who got Selke votes but shouldn't have was Zach Parise. There were 7 Devils forwards who saw significant PK time last year - Madden, Pandolfo, Gionta, Elias, Shanahan, Zajac, and Langenbrunner. And yet it was Parise who recieved 2 first place votes for Selke, based I'm sure on the fact that he scored a lot of points while having a good +/- (no better than his linemates Zajac and Langenbrunner, but he did score more than them!). Overall, he finshed 8th. Zajac finished 7th with no first place votes, but I would say that was well deserved. He was the defensive conscience who allowed Parise to play in front of the net so often.

I can't sleep tonight (this morning?) and I just had a crazy idea - The Selke voting would probably be better if each team selected a candidate to be voted on, much like the Masterdon award. Then Detroit could have picked Zetterberg and the Devils could have picked Zajac. Or maybe not the team itself, but the local writers who theoretically actually watch the team?
i have thought of that, too. it is a much better idea.

but there would be a problem if a team has more than 1 elite defensive F.
zetterberg is DRW's best defensive F, but datsyuk is better than most team's best defensive F's.

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06-20-2009, 02:03 PM
  #46
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Never said or implied what you allege.
Really? You acknowledge the results of the Selke voting as representative of a player's defensive abilities (compared to his peers), whereas I view the results of the Selke voting to be largely a product of reputation rather than displayed ability. Have I got it right so far?

As I have said in another thread, if reputation were tossed aside, would 2 of the 3 most important players of the league's #25th overall PK and #19 GAA 5-on-5 get so many votes for the Selke? I doubt it, despite being a purely statistics based argument (which I don't necessarily hold as gospel).

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06-20-2009, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Really? You acknowledge the results of the Selke voting as representative of a player's defensive abilities (compared to his peers), whereas I view the results of the Selke voting to be largely a product of reputation rather than displayed ability. Have I got it right so far?

As I have said in another thread, if reputation were tossed aside, would 2 of the 3 most important players of the league's #25th overall PK and #19 GAA 5-on-5 get so many votes for the Selke? I doubt it, despite being a purely statistics based argument (which I don't necessarily hold as gospel).
No. Basically you are arguing in the abstract.

My criteria is very simple. In the most critical defensive game situation would I have any doubts playing the Selke winner. In a seven game series would I have any doubts playing the Selke winner in the most critical defensive roles as they change from shift to shift, game to game.

A Bob Gainey I would never have any doubts but a Craig Ramsay I would be very doubtful when it came to the physical side of the game.

Pavel Datsyuk / Henrik Zetterberg. Together they play better defensively then the sum of their individual defensive games. That is why teams that win have a habit of outperforming their team statistics.

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06-20-2009, 03:45 PM
  #48
TheDevilMadeMe
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Has Madden really slipped that much? I always felt he should have won more Selke's than he did. To me he was the best defesnive forward in the game when he was in his prime.
He had a really bad year last year - he seemed significantly slower than the year before and Coach Sutter seemed to constantly change his role (which Madden, firebrand that his is, complained about to the media from time to time). He was also hurt by the fact that Jay Pandolfo, his regular linemate, totally went to crap last year.

Madden was Selke-worthy in 2007-08, though.

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06-20-2009, 04:37 PM
  #49
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Has Madden really slipped that much? I always felt he should have won more Selke's than he did. To me he was the best defesnive forward in the game when he was in his prime.
Yeah, the guy was a champ defensively for some time. Last year, though, he looked much slower (which is very, very bad for a player like Madden) and even kind of lost at times. As TheDevilMadeMe mentioned, it didn't help that Pandolfo played badly enough to actually get benched for a significant period. So besides having lost a step, it's as if Madden was Parise and Zajac just stopped being able to play effectively. Certainly doesn't make you look good when your shutdown partner Pandolfo stops being able to shutdown effectively, and any semblance of offense Pando possessed completely disappeared.

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06-20-2009, 04:56 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
datsyuk has been used as the main defensive F even with holmstrom.

when datsyuk and holmstrom played with franzen, they were the main checking line. zetterberg was with hossa and cleary.



i think zetterberg is more like lidstrom than datsyuk is.
imo, zetterberg's positioning, like lidstrom's, is 2nd to none. like lidstrom, zetterberg is not very physical, less physical than datsyuk.

datsyuk uses his stick very well, probably better than zetterberg does, but his body positioning is not as good.

imo, the main difference between datsyuk and zetterberg in defensive play is that datsyuk is more offensive-minded. i think that is the main reason why datsyuk's positioning is not as good as zetterberg's. datsyuk is too often looking to counterattack.
Yeah, I agree with all this. I forgot how scary Franzen - Datsyuk - Homer line was. Talk about dominating...

Zetterberg is indeed like Lidstrom, if we are talking about positioning. But Datsyuk has similar stick-work. Both have learned from the great #5.

I would say, that Datsyuk is better at playing defense in the neutral zone and in the offensive zone. He is the best at getting the puck back. His defense is very dynamic.

Zetterberg is better in the defensive zone. Thanks to his great positioning he is a better PKer. Zetterberg is better at static defense, if I may say so.

EDIT: I can't say, who is actually better. They have very different styles to get the job done. I think it's a matter of taste, if we have to prefer someone.

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