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Moore Has Sustained Neck Fractures

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Old
03-09-2004, 01:59 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakic19
They usually don't end with someone eating lunch from a tube.
So you're saying that a body check that is considered "clean" by NHL standards should only be a crime if the player that was checked recieved bad enough injury? If so, that logic is flawed.

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03-09-2004, 02:01 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Vancouver Police are apparently going to investigate. There is a briefing going on as we speak.

This is bull****. The NHL has rules and discipline procedures in place for this. The law should stay the hell out of it.
Fanfreakingtastic. Even if the charges are dropped, bumtuzzi deserves all the negativity associated with this.

I don't know how criminal justice is handled in Canada, but in the US, there are three essential elements of a crime which warrants criminal investigation.

1. Was a crime committed? Technically yes, however in the context (an NHL game), this is going to be the controversial one which is the hardest to come to a conclusion on.
2. Who did it? Bertuzzi.
3. Prove it. Ok

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03-09-2004, 02:01 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
That precedent should have never been set. McSorley getting charged was just as much a load of crap as Bertuzzi getting charged would be.

This happened in an NHL game, it is an NHL issue, and should be handled by the NHL alone.
As a law student, the issue is consent to assault. There's a famous case called Jobidon where it was held that for the good of society, two guys beating each other up in a bar fight are both guilty of assault even if both consent to the fight - society shouldn't condone this behaviour.

Sports is usually an exception, whereby two people who are boxing are allowed to consent to batter each other.

However, in the McSorley case, the judge found that his actions exceeded the implied consent inherent in a sporting match - that Brashear could not be held to have consented to a tomahawk hockey stick on the head.

I can see the courts finding the same thing here - that Moore consented to all typical contact that comes from a hockey game, but that Bertuzzi exceeded this consent by sucker-punching him, collapsing on him, pounding his face into the ice, and breaking his vertebrae.

What if Moore had been paralyzed or died? Would you still be opposed to criminal charges? What if it turned out that Moore had been sleeping with Bertuzzi's wife?

Context matters.

 
Old
03-09-2004, 02:02 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by FarOutCrops
I don't think Bertuzzi should get the equivalent of diplomatic immunity simply because this happened during a game. If this was a non-professional game, you would absolutely have charges filed. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the police getting involved, but that's up to them to figure out.
This wasn't a non-professional game. Amateur players don't get paid to play, therefore the law has a place there.

However, in professional hockey, especially the NHL, where players make multi-million-dollar salaries, the law has no place. Todd Bertuzzi is already going to lose six, maybe seven figures from the huge suspension he will no doubt face. Put that together with the fact that he can't go to work for a while now along with the mental anguish I have no doubt he is experiencing, that's plenty for punishment.

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03-09-2004, 02:02 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever
So you're saying that a body check that is considered "clean" by NHL standards should only be a crime if the player that was checked recieved bad enough injury? If so, that logic is flawed.
Let's not try to compare the two. Are they both malicious? Maybe. But, you can definitely separate the two acts into entirely different catagories.

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03-09-2004, 02:02 PM
  #56
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According to a report on CFAN590, Moore suffered fractures of the C2-C3 vertebrae. If that's accurate, Bertuzzi is lucky he's not facing homicide charges.

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03-09-2004, 02:03 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Vancouver Police are apparently going to investigate. There is a briefing going on as we speak.

This is bull****. The NHL has rules and discipline procedures in place for this. The law should stay the hell out of it.
I disagree. The NHL rules exist to provide a set of boundaries that players must play within; everyone agrees that Bert crossed that line in a very bloody, and incredibly dangerous way.

This incident does not deserve any special consideration from a legal point-of-view just because it happened in a game where there are rules and a governing body. Regardless of where this type of thing happens, it is assault.

If you walk down the street and i attack you, it is still assault, even if you kicked the living **** out of my only living relative i'm still attacking you in a premeditated way... there is no way that any trial lawyer will be able to convince a jury that Bert did not perpetrate premeditated assualt after seeing the video replay. He followed Moore up and down the ice talking to him, and when he got no response and Moore skated away (for the third time that shift) Bert proceeded to restrain Moore, knock him unconcious, and slam his face into the ice. Moore may never again live a normal life... and you claim that Bert only deserves a suspension from work?? Frankly, that is very disturbing.

Are we so desensitized to violence on TV and in life that so long as assault occurs in the confines of play and spectacle that it is acceptable?? What injuries would you require for the law to intercede?? Is the limit of the law to punish Bert only if he kills another player? What about permanent life-altering injury? what about career ending injury? There is no justification for your argument, or for tolerance.

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03-09-2004, 02:03 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
His injuries are not life threatening
A broken neck? Thats a very serious injury. Hockeys a GAME, when an incident is outside the perameters of the games rules, ie bodychecking, fighting etc it should be dealt with accordingly. I also think you should stop expressing your views as you are insulting me and im sure many other posters.

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03-09-2004, 02:04 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
His injuries are not life threatening.

It does matter that it happened during an NHL game. They have rules and discipline procedures for things like this, and they don't involve a courtroom.

If the law has any place in the game, there would be hundreds, if not thousands of charges every season for fights, major stick infractions, etc.

Also, fans who have been begging for the Instigator Rule to be scrapped so the players can "police themselves".......is this what you want?
A broken neck is pretty close to life threatening. A mere displacement of bumtuzzi's force bearing down on Moore could have caused paralysis or loss of life.

The third statement you said however reflects the only reason why I feel that this shouldn't be pursued in criminal court--civil court is a different situation however.

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03-09-2004, 02:04 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKBURN
I also think you should stop expressing your views as you are insulting me and im sure many other posters.
What if I'm insulted by your views? Does that mean you should shutup?

If you don't want to hear my views and opinions, which I am entitled to, then don't read them. It is that easy.

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03-09-2004, 02:07 PM
  #61
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Bertuzzi needs to either go to Europe or suspended for a long period of time.

 
Old
03-09-2004, 02:08 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakic19
Let's not try to compare the two. Are they both malicious? Maybe. But, you can definitely separate the two acts into entirely different catagories.
I was simply responding on your comment of, "They usually don't end with someone eating lunch from a tube", and that said to me that if the severity of the injury was bad enough, you'd want Criminal action applied to that player as well no matter what the circumstances. If thats not the case, I apologize.

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03-09-2004, 02:09 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfansam
I disagree. The NHL rules exist to provide a set of boundaries that players must play within; everyone agrees that Bert crossed that line in a very bloody, and incredibly dangerous way.

This incident does not deserve any special consideration from a legal point-of-view just because it happened in a game where there are rules and a governing body. Regardless of where this type of thing happens, it is assault.

If you walk down the street and i attack you, it is still assault, even if you kicked the living **** out of my only living relative i'm still attacking you in a premeditated way... there is no way that any trial lawyer will be able to convince a jury that Bert did not perpetrate premeditated assualt after seeing the video replay. He followed Moore up and down the ice talking to him, and when he got no response and Moore skated away (for the third time that shift) Bert proceeded to restrain Moore, knock him unconcious, and slam his face into the ice. Moore may never again live a normal life... and you claim that Bert only deserves a suspension from work?? Frankly, that is very disturbing.

Are we so desensitized to violence on TV and in life that so long as assault occurs in the confines of play and spectacle that it is acceptable?? What injuries would you require for the law to intercede?? Is the limit of the law to punish Bert only if he kills another player? What about permanent life-altering injury? what about career ending injury? There is no justification for your argument, or for tolerance.
Great post

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Old
03-09-2004, 02:10 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
What if I'm insulted by your views? Does that mean you should shutup?

If you don't want to hear my views and opinions, which I am entitled to, then don't read them. It is that easy.
So is the ignore feature, which you're now a part of. I used to enjoy your posts, but you're just a bit too full of yourself on this one.

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03-09-2004, 02:11 PM
  #65
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Like Isaac Newton said, for every action, there is a reaction, and that reaction is letting fate decide. I don't fully agree that the Police should be involved as it wasn't a deliberate attempt to break Moore's neck, no doubt he wanted to hurt him, but not to that extent. It was up to the league to police these two teams knowing the history behind their actions, if anyone should be policed now it should be the league for allowing this bullcrap to continue year after year.

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03-09-2004, 02:13 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever
I was simply responding on your comment of, "They usually don't end with someone eating lunch from a tube", and that said to me that if the severity of the injury was bad enough, you'd want Criminal action applied to that player as well no matter what the circumstances. If thats not the case, I apologize.
Maybe my post wasn't clear, but I think you now get the jist of what I was talking about. A couple of the other posters got it across pretty good. What he did was outside the realms of the game, and agreed to contact by participation.

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03-09-2004, 02:13 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakic19
So is the ignore feature, which you're now a part of. I used to enjoy your posts, but you're just a bit too full of yourself on this one.
Good god. How is one "full of himself" for expressing an opinion?

If you freak out this easy over a disagreement on the internet, I'd hate to see how you behave in real social situations where somebody might not share your opinions.

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03-09-2004, 02:13 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever
Boxing as well. The question here is, where does society begin and sports end? I'd say that this is an NHL issue as well.
Boxing is a very poor analogy. The whole sport of boxing is based on two able fighters competing. If boxers were to jump each others back when they were heading for their corner after the bell had rung, it would be similar to this.

I would say the sport of boxing has much more respect for the wellbeing of it's athletes than most sports, hockey included.

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03-09-2004, 02:25 PM
  #69
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checking - yeess

fighting - o.k. it's a hockey game!

Todd Bertuzzi - go to hell !!!

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Old
03-09-2004, 02:25 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
His injuries are not life threatening.

It does matter that it happened during an NHL game. They have rules and discipline procedures for things like this, and they don't involve a courtroom.

If the law has any place in the game, there would be hundreds, if not thousands of charges every season for fights, major stick infractions, etc.

Also, fans who have been begging for the Instigator Rule to be scrapped so the players can "police themselves".......is this what you want?
Van, with respect, I dont think you are "getting" this. There is something known as a "voluntary assumption of the risk" which may preclude a successful criminal prosecution. I dont think anybody would consider what Bertuzzi did as a possible or reasonable "risk", certainly not a risk that you would voluntarilty assume at least. Therefore it probably is grounds to criminally prosecute.
Using your point of view that the law should not be applied to actions in an NHL game, one could never be subjected to criminal prosecution, even if a player swung his stick as hard as he could like a lumberjack (with intent) at a guys head & kills him. No criminal prosecution then? If thats what you believe, well then, I guess theres no point in trying to covince you of the ridiculousness ( in my view) of your position.

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03-09-2004, 02:26 PM
  #71
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nothing in sports supercedes the law of the land.. Whatever land the incident takes place in.

Now get back to the topic .

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BOSTON STRONG !!!
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Old
03-09-2004, 02:30 PM
  #72
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I could really care less if Bertuzzi ever plays another hockey game in his career. He should be made an example of, much like McSorely was and hopefully criminal charges are forthcoming. Truly one of the most vile acts and results I have ever seen in my life of being involved in and watching hockey and I have been at it for over 25 years. If he is chosen to play for Team Canada at the World Cup, I think I may ignore the tournament altogether. Right now I don't think I could cheer for a team that has Todd Bertuzzi on it.

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03-09-2004, 02:38 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
This wasn't a non-professional game. Amateur players don't get paid to play, therefore the law has a place there.

However, in professional hockey, especially the NHL, where players make multi-million-dollar salaries, the law has no place. Todd Bertuzzi is already going to lose six, maybe seven figures from the huge suspension he will no doubt face. Put that together with the fact that he can't go to work for a while now along with the mental anguish I have no doubt he is experiencing, that's plenty for punishment.
If you go after someone in a dangerous way like that, no matter where you are, there is going to be a legal repercussion. It might come in the civil court, but it's certainly something that has to be looked at. He could have killed Moore, and that itself places it higher than an NHL issue. I think regard for human life trumps NHL rules. Like I said before, I don't really have an opinion on whether he should face charges, but I can certainly understand why he could.

Aside from the brutality of the incident itself, there's the fact that revenge had been talked about. Short of Moore being killed, this was about the worst thing that could have happened, and it happened after words like "bounty" had been thrown around. If something huge and unprecedented isn't done, it could happen again. These people have families and careers, and to me, and hopefully everyone, that's worth far more than our opinions on whether the law should be involved or not. I don't think an NHL suspension and loss of wages is tantamount to having your neck broken.

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03-09-2004, 02:46 PM
  #74
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Van you are coming off as totally ridiculous.

Bert has possibly ended a good young players career before it ever really got started.

Your whining about Buert missing MAYBE 6 or 7 figure in salary and the "mental anguish" of not being able to play for awhile.

Does it enter your brain that Moore may never play again????

Or that this guy will also miss out on million of $$$ in lost slary if his career is ended over such a cowardly and vicious play???

Bert should have crimnal charges pressed against him and he will.

And on top of that he should face AT LEAST the 1 yr suspension that McSorely had handed to him.

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03-09-2004, 02:52 PM
  #75
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That's one of the worst injuries I've ever heard of, hopefully Moore will recover well enough, if not to play hockey again, at least suffer no ill effects. As for Bertuzzi, just ban his ass from hockey, that kind of bush-league BS doesn't belong at any level.

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