I have never been a big Babchuk fan. He's just never really impressed me a whole lot. It has nothing to do with him leaving at all for me. We all make mistakes and we all deserve second chances. As much as I hate Sean Avery, I'm not bothered at him potentially getting a second chance. One last shot to show his head is on straight and he wants to play in the NHL. Anyway, If I had the choice this offseason, i'd cut ties with Kaberle (hopefully), cut ties with Babchuk and retain Seidenberg. Then there will be a spot for Borer, Carson, Rodney or even McBain to fight for. Possibly 2 spots. Im sure Wallin will still be here, so it leaves one spot. - Gleason, Pitkanen, Corvo, Seidenberg, Wallin (I would think, but would rather not), Carson/Borer/Rodney/McBain. I want to see McBain get a year in the AHL though.
Not far from the truth about Melrose. It was almost like a reality show with him behind the bench.
I agree about cutting ties with Kaberle and keeping Seidenberg but I'd also try and keep Babchuk. He seems to have grown and so has his game although I also have some problems with it still. I probably go against the general sentiment but I'm not a big fan of Borer's. I thought he played surprisingly well in his first game or two last year but then quickly became a liability without the puck. I just think he was one of those guys who exceeded expectations, scored a goal and his iffy defensive play was overlooked (similar to Noah Babin a couple of preseasons ago).
Carson is ok and Rodney has been a great story but I wouldn't get rid of Babchuk and his potential to make room for either of them. So I'd go with Gleason, Pitkanen, Corvo, Seidenberg, Wallin, Babchuk and which ever young guy wins a job for the 7th D on the roster. I agree that McBain will be better by a year in the AHL.
Tocchet had a different philosophy and system than Melrose and Jokinen wasn't the best fit for it. He then struggled after a good start under Melrose and ultimately became an odd man out.
Babchuk on the other hand was given major minutes a couple seasons back and played quite well for a time. His play then plummeted, his minutes decreased and then he ended up in the press box before the attempted demotion to the AHL.
It was Babchuk's play that wasn't liked. If he simply wasn't liked, he wouldn't have gotten the major minutes in the first place. Why Babchuk's poor performance gets overlooked so often is beyond me.
See, I think the idea about Babchuk not being liked by Lavi isn't so much based on that season as it is based off of earlier this season. Babchuk had a solid camp, although he was definitely outplayed by our top 3, Seidenberg and Wallin, he also definitely outplayed Kaberle and Melichar. Yet from the get go Babchuk was the #8 guy under lavi until injuries and Malichar's horrid play forced Babchuk into the lineup, and he played well when given the opportunity to. Even so, shortly before Lavi was fired, he made comments along the lines of "it's frustrating, the coaching staff seems to have no confidence in me". In come Maurice and Ronnie and all of a sudden it's a complete 180 in Babchuk's attitude and seemingly the staff's attitude towards Babchuk. I don't know if that means that Babchuk is one of Chairman Mo or Ronnie's favorites, or if Lavi just flat out didn't like Babchuk, quite possibly it's a combination of the two.
On the post above, I agree about Borer... somewhat. I still think he can and could rather easily be a decent top 4 defenseman in the league, just not here. I think he's going to be trade bait for a team looking to sell at the deadline, possibly Ottawa or the Isles.
On the post above, I agree about Borer... somewhat. I still think he can and could rather easily be a decent top 4 defenseman in the league, just not here. I think he's going to be trade bait for a team looking to sell at the deadline, possibly Ottawa or the Isles.
I agree with Borer. I still like him and would like to see what he could do with an NHL job. However, we also have Carson and Rodney (though I see him as more of an AHL defenceman who can be called up when needed for a few games) who the team looks to be quite high on. With McBain in the wings, I think Borer's stock on this team has dropped a good bit since his showing last season. With that said, I agree with you and could definitely see Borer as a piece traded at the deadline. I'd like to see him here, but I just don't know if the room is here. It's a good problem to have and one that this organization has been in much need for.
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Carson is ok and Rodney has been a great story but I wouldn't get rid of Babchuk and his potential to make room for either of them. So I'd go with Gleason, Pitkanen, Corvo, Seidenberg, Wallin, Babchuk and which ever young guy wins a job for the 7th D on the roster. I agree that McBain will be better by a year in the AHL.
I could live with that, (Gleason, Pitkanen, Corvo, Seidenberg, Wallin, Babchuk) with say Carson as the#7. I just think its about time Carson, Borer and even Rodney get a full time shot to show their stuff. For Carson, Rodney and Borer they've pretty well shown they can be AHL defenceman who can play in the NHL when called upon and I believe it is time to see what they can do in the top 6 of an NHL club, if not here, send them somewhere where they have opportunity. For them to keep playing in the AHL, it's good for seasoning them, but I think they are at a point where they need to be given an opportunity in the NHL. I am all for developing, but I think its time for those guys. I'd just rather atleast one of them (Probably Carson) have a spot rather then be in the wings on the depth chart at the 7 spot awaiting an opening. Although, that's not bad either to work him in. With the way injuries work here, he would get his fair share of time I would imagine.
With that said, Seidenberg & Babchuk are relatively close in age and of the bunch are closer than any to being top 4 defenceman. Myself, I want Seidenberg here in the top 4. With Wallin here next season on contract and his famous NTC that leaves one spot for Babchuk, Carson, Rodney, Borer and even potentially (again, I hope not, but you know JR) McBain. I guess another year in the AHL wouldn't hurt Borer and Rodney to much at all. I'd like to see atleast Carson with the big club next season. So, I could live with Gleason, Pitkanen, Corvo, Seidenberg, Wallin, Babchuk and Carson.
It will no doubt be interesting to see how it transpires. We as an organization have never been in this situation before. It's a nice position to be in. For once.
There just isn't much room on the blueline to introduce these young, seasoned prospects.
No way Borer/Rodney/Carson are here over Babchuk next season. Babchuk has proven himself as an NHL defenseman, while Borer/Carson are getting killed in the AHL (combined -40 the last time I checked). Rodney is the same age as Babchuk and wasn't even an AHL regular until this season. Rodney has played well, but in a sheltered role as a #6 defenseman getting 10 minutes a game against 3rd/4th lines
I think some are vastly overrating our prospects and forgetting that Babchuk isn't much older than most of them. Babchuk's had more success in the NHL than those guys have had in the AHL.
I said awhile back that Babchuk will be our #4 defenseman next season. Right now he's our #4 with Seidenberg out and is playing very well, getting around 22-23 minutes a game (he actually played more than Gleason against PHX). It would be a joke to throw him away for a bunch of AHL-calibre players.
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Originally Posted by Guerzy
With that said, Seidenberg & Babchuk are relatively close in age. Myself, I want Seidenberg here in the top 4. With Wallin here next season on contract and his famous NTC that leaves one spot for Babchuk, Carson, Rodney, Borer and even potentially (again, I hope not, but you know JR) McBain.
Babchuk is three years younger than Seidenberg. Remember Seidenberg three years ago (actually two years ago)? He sucked.
Anyways, I don't see it as an either/or thing. They could both be here. Seidenberg's value has probably decreased by a fair margin with his drop-off in point production and constant injuries.
Last edited by Amaxing Joni Jokel: 02-09-2009 at 02:24 PM.
See, I think the idea about Babchuk not being liked by Lavi isn't so much based on that season as it is based off of earlier this season. Babchuk had a solid camp, although he was definitely outplayed by our top 3, Seidenberg and Wallin, he also definitely outplayed Kaberle and Melichar. Yet from the get go Babchuk was the #8 guy under lavi until injuries and Malichar's horrid play forced Babchuk into the lineup, and he played well when given the opportunity to. Even so, shortly before Lavi was fired, he made comments along the lines of "it's frustrating, the coaching staff seems to have no confidence in me". In come Maurice and Ronnie and all of a sudden it's a complete 180 in Babchuk's attitude and seemingly the staff's attitude towards Babchuk. I don't know if that means that Babchuk is one of Chairman Mo or Ronnie's favorites, or if Lavi just flat out didn't like Babchuk, quite possibly it's a combination of the two.
My comment was directed to a back-and-forth session previously with dmonk where he was contending that Lavi's dislike of Babchuk went back a couple of years ago.
To your point, Babchuk didn't get a fair shake with Melichar but Kaberle actually had a very good preseason and start to the year. I think there may have been some penance too for Babchuk to pay to prove himself in the eyes of the coaches and his ex-teammates. That's just my speculation but not a stretch when you consider the circumstances of him leaving during a playoff push.
Maurice and the coaches talked about Babchuk needing to mature and do everything more quickly. Once he started playing well he mentioned his growing confidence and getting a chance to play. Maybe he felt the coaches didn't have faith in him but don't forget that Rowe also took over the D so there were different dynamics at work with him and the tighter play insisted upon in the neutral zone, where Babchuk often had problems.
Babchuk on the other hand was given major minutes a couple seasons back and played quite well for a time. His play then plummeted, his minutes decreased and then he ended up in the press box before the attempted demotion to the AHL.
It was Babchuk's play that wasn't liked. If he simply wasn't liked, he wouldn't have gotten the major minutes in the first place. Why Babchuk's poor performance gets overlooked so often is beyond me.
I agree with you, his play diminished greatly at some point that season. I never said he as a star player. However, him sucking and conflict developing are not two mutually exclusive things.
Just saying'
as for the rest of the argument, I tend to agree with Anton Babchuk (heck, it is confusing now) and what he projects to be our next year line up. Seids, indeed, decreased his value by being constantly injured. I was hoping he would be a good trade bait at the deadiline and return us 3rd or even 2nd round pick. I'm not so sure right now.
Babchuk is three years younger than Seidenberg. Remember Seidenberg three years ago (actually two years ago)? He sucked.
Anyways, I don't see it as an either/or thing. They could both be here. Seidenberg's value has probably decreased by a fair margin with his drop-off in point production and constant injuries.
I am aware of the age difference, which is why I said 'relatively close in age'. Also in development. Seidenberg has taken a big step this season and I for one like him and would like for him to be retained and a part of our top 4. But if I had to retain one of Babchuk or Seidenberg, or could choose one for the top 4, for me it is Seidenberg. That's pretty well all I was getting at. And I agree about where Seidenberg is at right now value wise based on his drop in production and injuries.
I am not against keeping Babchuk. Even though I'm not a big fan of his game, he has indeed taken a big step forward this season and with more time (Like Seidenberg) could become that much better. With both Wallin and Corvo being UFA next summer (July 2010) and another year in the NHL for Babchuk, he could easily potentially be a top 4 man at that time.
...choose one for the top 4, for me it is Seidenberg. That's pretty well all I was getting at.
I can agree with that as of right now. Their skillset is about the same, but Seids is playing better physical game that helps when you play top opposing lines.
However, i think 3 years is quite a lot in terms where players can get in their developement. I'd retain Babchuk's rights if possible at all. He doesn't hurt the team and if he continues developing we might get us a stud by the time he is 28-30 years old.
I can agree with that as of right now. Their skillset is about the same, but Seids is playing better physical game that helps when you play top opposing lines.
However, i think 3 years is quite a lot in terms where players can get in their developement. I'd retain Babchuk's rights if possible at all. He doesn't hurt the team and if he continues developing we might get us a stud by the time he is 28-30 years old.
Definitely agree. The more I got writing and thinking, I came to the same conclusion. Like I said in my post above, next summer (July 2010) when Corvo, Wallin and Kaberle (if he is still here) are all UFA, Babchuk could indeed step into the top 4 with ease. So yes, it does make sense to keep him retained.
Agree on Babchuk. He's going to be here come hell or high water next season it seems. Seidenberg on the other hand is probably going to be too pricey for our tastes. It shocked us all a bit that instead of the standard $1 million they were giving out for defensemen they handed Seidenberg $1.2 million. His QO was something like $900k unless i'm mistaken.
There is another HUGE... and I do mean HUGE.... difference between Babchuk and Seidenberg and it's the status at year end. Anton Babchuk will be restricted while Seidenberg will be unrestricted. Babchuk will only be due 110% of his salary this year to be qualified unless i'm mistaken. It could only be 100%. Either way, he'll probably get another one year contract or at most two years at around that number. Seidenberg wouldn't come as cheap because he'll have access to 29 other teams to negotiate with.
Plus, Babchuk is totally hamstrung in these negotiations. What is he going to do, go back to Russia again?
Also, Seidenberg will be 28 by the start of the season next year. Not saying that is ancient, but Babchuk will have just turned 25 years old. If we're looking at it from a "younger is better", standpoint then Babchuk is also the pick here.
Bryan Rodney, while a nice story, is another future trivia question answer. He came out of nowhere and he'll likely be back there after this season ends. I see him with no place in the long term plans. He isn't defensive enough to take a regular shift and he isn't offensive enough to justify his place as a powerplay specialist. He is a tweener.... albeit one that is helpful to our cause right now.
Casey Borer is done like dinner, IMO. I really liked him before he tore his knee up but he hasn't been the same player since then and when you're a guy who played college hockey for four years and then signed with your pro club you're going to have to make the NHL in a hurry before the tag, "career AHLer", starts to float around your name. In his last callup he looked quite poor in his mobility and that really started to show up when he was getting destroyed on the forecheck. Beetle on windshield kind of action behind the net when we played a team like Tampa who sends guys like Roberts, Recchi, and Artyukhin. It made him look really really small when he actually is a pretty decent sized guy.
Brett Carson is interesting. I think he may be a late bloomer and I could see him scoring a spot on the blueline next year if he keeps progressing. His AHL numbers are less than impressive but those really don't matter much in terms of how his numbers will translate to the NHL. In his brief stint I was really impressed by his mobility for such a big guy and I think that his mixture of size, speed, and physical play will make him a safer bet for organizational longevity than Borer. There is also a hint of a developing offensive game there for Carson that isn't there for Borer. Plus, he's a lot bigger and just as quick.
Jamie McBain is my odds on favorite to win a spot out of camp. I think it's a foregone conclusion that he's going to be leaving Wisconsin after this year because the organization and McBain both had considered it, however brief, prior to this one. His coaches in the WCHA have been calling him a ready made pro for some time now. With the very real prospect of winning the Hobey Baker, there isn't much left for him to do down there. Matt Carle is a comperable example. Carle was the first Junior defenseman to win the Hobey Baker when he took it in 2006 and McBain could be the second in 2009. Carle was a bit more offensive minded where as McBain is more well rounded but both games projected well to the NHL and Carle had immediate success for the Sharks. Both guys taken in the 2nd round who were kind of draft and follow kind of kids who went through the USNTDP and then on to the NCAA. McBain should be even better suited to make the jump immediately as his game has been called very cerebral and his point totals aren't just pure skill related as much as hockey smarts. Plus, he is a pretty big guy back there. 6'2" and about 210 lbs. He has a really full frame already. Looks the part for sure.
Seidenberg has never played more than 63 games in any NHL season. And other than that one season the number drops into the 50 games range. Im not sure you can count on a guy to be in the top 4 when he cant play a full season. Espcially if his price jumps like we are assuming.
babs has been playing good for how long now? two months? and we are automatically taking him over seids....a far more mobile d? i agree that babs has improved his confidence and is now playing better overall and especially with the puck....but the problem with the ankles stuck in the ice in his own end remain. he isnt really physical, he isnt strong on his skates (for his size), and he cant really skate himself out of trouble...all three things seids does well. I think they BOTH should be here next year but if im choosing one over the other i dont see how it can be anything but seids. 28 means he is hitting his prime....not past it. Babs will never be a quick man, so to me he will always be a bit of a liability. watching him and pitts in their own end is scary, neither guy has the quick twitch reflex to beat a slug. I agree seids will be overpaid but you have no choice but to overpay to keep guys these days and we dont have enough reinforcements coming up, i dont care what anyone says about our youngsters. im not convinced any of them are full time players for sure yet, and i dont want to see mcbain next year unless the ahl insists he leaves.
seids is exactly the kind of guy jr trades for, let them develop somewhere else then we pay them to be actual defenseman. ive always had hopes for babs, but the sort of blind love there seems to be for him here sometimes makes no sense, keep him if you can but not at the expense of someone who IS already a legit top 6 (on us top 4) guy. Babs has neither the mobility nor the physical strength to be a legit no 4 even for us right now.
I didn't feel anyone in love with Anton here reading any of the posts.
It was basically coming down to Seids is better now, but we might not be able to afford him offseason. Babchuk can be a poor man top 4 d-man next year (and so is Seids if we manage to keep him). It wouldn't hurt to keep Babchuk to see what he develops into for as long as he is not liability.
Next season will come when it comes, but right now, it seems, that other than Corvo, Gleason and Pitkanen nothing is set. The coaching staff may want to develop players and give them an NHL opportunity to shine but there is no cushion in the standings to be able to afford experiments, uh-ohs or brain farts. Hence the major minutes of those three. There is not enough confidence in the rest of the D to spread minutes around. Hopefully this will pay off in a playoff spot but will it leave those three guys worn out?
I used to be really high on our D prospects a while back. I thought Borer was ready to make the leap in the near future but it seems like he's regressed quite a bit. Rodney hasn't really impressed much in his stint up here except for a few good outlet passes. I know he's been paired with Kabs who is no defensive stud but I believe they've consistently been in the minuses the last few games. Anyway, McBain looks like he could be a real stud. I don't want to rush him, but I wouldn't wind packaging some of those others guys to get us a good winger or a legit no. 2 center. We really need to get rid of one or both of Kaberle and Wallin. Kabs is pricier so if we could unload him maybe at the deadline that would be great. If live with another year of Wallin if I have to but it's not optimal to be sure. A D-core of this next year would be the most ideal/realistic imo.
Let McBain finish out at UW or have a year with Albany. I think we should try our hardest to resign Seids. If we can get Kaberle's salary off of the books, then there's no reason why we can't give him that money. Offer him a multi year deal around 2.5 per year I think would be fair. I'd resign Babs for a while too. These guys can play and they are obviously the kinds of players that if you show faith in them, they will play to their potential. Nickel and dimeing from year to year is great, but you're not gonna save big bucks in the long run. You gotta risk some to get rewarded.
I used to be really high on our D prospects a while back. I thought Borer was ready to make the leap in the near future but it seems like he's regressed quite a bit. Rodney hasn't really impressed much in his stint up here except for a few good outlet passes. I know he's been paired with Kabs who is no defensive stud but I believe they've consistently been in the minuses the last few games. Anyway, McBain looks like he could be a real stud. I don't want to rush him, but I wouldn't wind packaging some of those others guys to get us a good winger or a legit no. 2 center. We really need to get rid of one or both of Kaberle and Wallin. Kabs is pricier so if we could unload him maybe at the deadline that would be great. If live with another year of Wallin if I have to but it's not optimal to be sure. A D-core of this next year would be the most ideal/realistic imo.
While I wouldn't say we have the stud #1 defenseman prospect in our system, although McBain has certainly shown the potential, I think we have quite a few solid defensemen that fit into what this team wants out of it's defensemen. Those defensemen include Bellemore, Borer (who probably took a step back in his development due to his significant leg injury that he suffered late last season), Carson, Jordan, Kunes, Lawson, and Rodney. Certainly not the best pool in the NHL, but if only one or two of those guys develop to their potential and supplement what we have in Babchuk/Seidenberg, Corvo, Gleason, and Pitkanen, we'll be fine for the near future.
While I wouldn't say we have the stud #1 defenseman prospect in our system, although McBain has certainly shown the potential, I think we have quite a few solid defensemen that fit into what this team wants out of it's defensemen. Those defensemen include Bellemore, Borer (who probably took a step back in his development due to his significant leg injury that he suffered late last season), Carson, Jordan, Kunes, Lawson, and Rodney. Certainly not the best pool in the NHL, but if only one or two of those guys develop to their potential and supplement what we have in Babchuk/Seidenberg, Corvo, Gleason, and Pitkanen, we'll be fine for the near future.
Yeah, I guess I should have been clearer. I don't know if McBain is gonna become a #1 d-man but he's certainly progressing very nicely. And could maybe be a solid #2 behind Pitkanen. The thingwith our current D-core is that they are still very young.
Tim Gleason - 1983 (26)
Joni Pitkanen - 1983 (25)
Joe Corvo - 1977 (31)
Anton Babchuk - 1984 (24)
Dennis Seidenberg - 1981 (27)
I'm not counting Wallin and Kaberle because they're on the way out. . Corvo being the old man on campus at 31. That's a very young core. If McBain progresses the way he was been and we can retain those guys without breaking the bank (which i think we can seeing the deals for Pits and Timmy) we should have a pretty good and relatively inexpensive defense core for quite some time.
Also, can't wait for Jamie to make the team so we can start with these avatars.
Last edited by GIN ANTONIC: 02-09-2009 at 07:33 PM.
in before a certain someone does an analysis of all his ***** and proves he was playing easy minutes.
His PP/ES point ratio does remind me of a certain Matt Cullen.
Jokinen's most common forward opponents at ES in 07-08:
1. T. Ruutu
2. Malkin
3. Ovechkin
4. E. Staal
5. Lombardi
6. Iginla
7. Cole
8. O'Sullivan
9. Backstrom
10. Perry
Jokinen's most common defensive opponents at ES:
1. Orpik
2. Gonchar
3. Bouwmeester
4. Phaneuf
5. Gleason
6. A. Aucoin
7. J. Johnson
8. Modry
9. R. Blake
10. Martinek
Looks like he faced some pretty difficult opposition, at least that season.
"It's not too common that you go to a team in the same division, and obviously it will be weird to play against those guys," he said. "But I'm on a team with a chance to make the playoffs and I'm going to do everything possible to help this team get to the playoffs."
From hearing how excited he was to be here yesterday and acknowledging we have a 'huge' game on thursday to this, I'm definitely liking this guy already.
