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Kubina willing to waive NTC

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02-08-2009, 01:05 PM
  #1
Jordan
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Kubina willing to waive NTC

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Much like fellow countryman Tomas Kaberle, Pavel Kubina would be willing to waive his no-trade clause if he no longer fits in the Maple Leafs' future plans.

"If Brian (Burke) and the team did not want me here, why would I stick around?" Kubina admitted here yesterday.

"Having said that, it's an honour to play for the Leafs. I want to stay."

Kaberle's agent, Rick Curran, reportedly said last week that Kaberle likely would provide a list of potential teams to Burke if he was asked to move. Kubina said he would probably follow suit with a list if similar circumstances arose concerning his own situation.

Kubina, who has one full season remaining for a salary of $5-million US, said he has not been approached by Burke.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...11756-sun.html

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02-08-2009, 01:09 PM
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i think the only way the Leafs should move either one is if someone wants to overpay significantly. Both of these dmen are world-class, and if they are willing to let the Leafs explore options - great. Certainly no gun to Burke's head to sell either at a discount.

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02-08-2009, 01:13 PM
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of course they want to waive

their NTC's are void during the off-season if the Leafs fail to make the playoffs. Only reason they're considering waiving is so they can dictate where they can go.

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02-08-2009, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
i think the only way the Leafs should move either one is if someone wants to overpay significantly. Both of these dmen are world-class, and if they are willing to let the Leafs explore options - great. Certainly no gun to Burke's head to sell either at a discount.

Kind of amazing that, Toronto with its two "world class dman" has annually had one of the worst defenses in the league and has fairly consistently ranked in the bottom five in goals against.

Both of these guys are good two way dmen - kaberele at his best is very good. Neither are close to being "world class."

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02-08-2009, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Kind of amazing that, Toronto with its two "world class dman" has annually had one of the worst defenses in the league and has fairly consistently ranked in the bottom five in goals against.

Both of these guys are good two way dmen - kaberele at his best is very good. Neither are close to being "world class."
World class meaning good enough for international play maybe?

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02-08-2009, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Acekicker123 View Post
World class meaning good enough for international play maybe?

Given that Oleg Kvasha was used by Russia in international tournaments, I'm not sure that would mean a whole lot...

Its a lot like calling a guy an "All star" because he once played in an all star game.

Anyway, hyperbole notwithstanding, Karbele is ridiculously underpaid. That might be the one reason teams overpay. 4million or so for a true top pairing dman is steal in today's NHL.

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02-08-2009, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Given that Oleg Kvasha was used by Russia in international tournaments, I'm not sure that would mean a whole lot...

Its a lot like calling a guy an "All star" because he once played in an all star game.

Anyway, hyperbole notwithstanding, Karbele is ridiculously underpaid. That might be the one reason teams overpay. 4million or so for a true top pairing dman is steal in today's NHL.
Well, they weren't one time flukes.

Kaberle and Kubina are three-time gold medalists for the Czechs, and have both been named to the World Championship all-star team.

Hence World Class D-men.

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02-08-2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Acekicker123 View Post
Well, they weren't one time flukes.

Kaberle and Kubina are three-time gold medalists for the Czechs, and have both been named to the World Championship all-star team.

Hence World Class D-men.
Fine. Then we can agree that "world class" is basically a meaningless label that can be applied to any player who is invited to multiple world tournaments.

The decline of the Isles can all be blamed on them losing "world class" players like Alexi Yashin, Miroslav Satan, Oleg Kvasha, and Scott Lachance.

Heck, by your reasoning, Tommy Salo was a "world class" goaltender.

I'd say that the "world class" should probably be restricted to player who are actually elite in their position on a world stage - like Pronger or Neidermayer, etc.

Kubina isn't even close to being top 15 in the NHL - let alone being a player who is elite in his positon on a world stage. At this point in his career, I'm not even sure he is top 10 in the conference.

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02-08-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Fine. Then we can agree that "world class" is basically a meaningless label that can be applied to any player who is invited to multiple world tournaments.

The decline of the Isles can all be blamed on them losing "world class" players like Alexi Yashin, Miroslav Satan, Oleg Kvasha, and Scott Lachance.

Heck, by your reasoning, Tommy Salo was a "world class" goaltender.

I'd say that the "world class" should probably be restricted to player who are actually elite in their position on a world stage - like Pronger or Neidermayer, etc.

Kubina isn't even close to being top 15 in the NHL - let alone being a player who is elite in his positon on a world stage. At this point in his career, I'm not even sure he is top 10 in the conference.
What games are you watching? I'd argue that Kubina in the past two years has been as good if not better than Kaberle. But that's just me.

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02-08-2009, 01:51 PM
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forget the world class thing, the point is that both kubina and kaberle could be out of Toronto after the trade deadline and that's when the true tanking can begin (might be too late after last night's 5-2 win over Les Habitants). Any team that trades away 2 of its top 3 defensemen would definitely tank

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02-08-2009, 01:52 PM
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I'd love to see this guy with the Caps...but the money wouldn't work unless Burke would take Nylander. So yeah. Rule out DC.

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02-08-2009, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Reverse Flying V View Post
What games are you watching? I'd argue that Kubina in the past two years has been as good if not better than Kaberle. But that's just me.
Whether or not Kubina is better than Kaberle is not the point. The fact of the matter is that these two guys are the core of one of the worst defenses in the NHL. Neither is a "world class" defensemen.

Your two "world class dmen" are -12 each. Kubina is 30th in the NHL in scoring among dmen. Kaberle is 18th (tied with multiple players for 70th in goal scoring among dmen). Those are not particularly impressive stats.

I suspect that Kaberle will return a modest overpayment because of that ridiculous bargain contract of his. But, neither of these guys is elite, world class, or any of that other nonsense.

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02-08-2009, 01:58 PM
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I think it's inevitable that Tomas Kaberle will be moved by D-line day but I don't think Kubina will be moved. He is much more important to the Leafs than what his value will be on the market and on that sole reason Burke won't move him

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02-08-2009, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post

Kubina isn't even close to being top 15 in the NHL - let alone being a player who is elite in his positon on a world stage. At this point in his career, I'm not even sure he is top 10 in the conference.
Thats a fair assessment. Still, that doesn't mean that he isn't a very good defenceman.

I don't buy the argument that Toronto's record is a measure of their top pairing defensive talent though. Defense is a team responsibility, and that team concept has been a problem for the Leafs for the past few years. Its gotten better under Wilson, in my opinion, but its a much younger team now, and make a lot of mistakes because of that. This isn't even touching on goaltending, which has been a serious problem for years now.

Edit: Just responding to your subsequent post, I guess I just disagree when it comes to Kaberle. I see him as an elite world-class defenceman. If he gets moved, I think there'll be a lot of people whose opinion of him will change dramatically when they see him on a contending team.

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02-08-2009, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by trickster View Post
i think the only way the Leafs should move either one is if someone wants to overpay significantly. Both of these dmen are world-class, and if they are willing to let the Leafs explore options - great. Certainly no gun to Burke's head to sell either at a discount.
You're giving Leaf fans a bad name. Not all of us over-rate our players like that.

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02-08-2009, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Kind of amazing that, Toronto with its two "world class dman" has annually had one of the worst defenses in the league and has fairly consistently ranked in the bottom five in goals against.

Both of these guys are good two way dmen - kaberele at his best is very good. Neither are close to being "world class."
Wrong. The NHL is the world class league, not a world class league, THE world class league. That being said, they're both top pairing d-men in the world class league, thus making them world class defensemen.

In the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD, how many better defensemen are there currently out there?

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02-08-2009, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Thats a fair assessment. Still, that doesn't mean that he isn't a very good defenceman. .
I never argued he wasn't very good - although I don't think he has been very good in Toronto. I think he needs a change of scenary.

But, he still won't be world class or elite. It has actually been years since Kubina was even what I would call a high level dman. Right now, he is probably a #3 or #4 on a halfway decent team.

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I don't buy the argument that Toronto's record is a measure of their top pairing defensive talent though. Defense is a team responsibility, and that team concept has been a problem for the Leafs for the past few years. Its gotten better under Wilson, in my opinion, but its a much younger team now, and make a lot of mistakes because of that. This isn't even touching on goaltending, which has been a serious problem for years now.
The buck has to stop somewhere. All year long, Leaf fans have been telling us that Toskala is really an excellent goaltender, but his numbers don't show it because of his defense. They, we are told that Kaberle and Kubina are really "world class" but can't be held responsible for the crappy GAA because of the "team defense"

And, all last season, we were told it was because of the "coaching problems" and when Wilson was brought along, it would all be solved.

The fact of the matter is, Toronto has a crappy defense and lousy goaltending. And, yeah, defense is a team process. But, your dmen and goaltenders have to take prime responsibility.

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02-08-2009, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Locke View Post
Wrong. The NHL is the world class league, not a world class league, THE world class league. That being said, they're both top pairing d-men in the world class league, thus making them world class defensemen.

In the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD, how many better defensemen are there currently out there?
Spoken like a guy who has probably never been out of Canada in his life.

News flash: there is lots of great hockey being played in places other than the NHL.

The suggestion that any top pairing dman in the NHL is "World class" is profoundly ridiculous. Last year, Brendan Witt was on the Isles top pairing. Is he world class?

If you trade Kaberle and Kubina, Jeff Finger will wind up on your top pairing. Is he "world class?"

Weak post.

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02-08-2009, 02:08 PM
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Also, up until probably the 35 game mark when our team just sort of seemed to quit competing because no matter how hard we tried we weren't going anywhere...I'm pretty sure we had an excellent shot per game against shot against per game and it was just Toskala who let in 4+ goals per game on 25 shots.

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02-08-2009, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Spoken like a guy who has probably never been out of Canada in his life.

News flash: there is lots of great hockey being played in places other than the NHL.

The suggestion that any top pairing dman in the NHL is "World class" is profoundly ridiculous. Last year, Brendan Witt was on the Isles top pairing. Is he world class?

If you trade Kaberle and Kubina, Jeff Finger will wind up on your top pairing. Is he "world class?"

Weak post.
Haha, weak post. Of course I've been out of Canada you putz. Just because there is great hockey being played out of North America, doesn't mean that it's on par with the National Hockey League.

And looking at it pretty objectively, of course Brendan Witt is a world class defenseman. And just because he has played as a top pairing, doesn't mean that is what he is - you know what I'm talking about, and well, if you don't, God help you.

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02-08-2009, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
The buck has to stop somewhere. All year long, Leaf fans have been telling us that Toskala is really an excellent goaltender, but his numbers don't show it because of his defense. .
I'd like too see the Leafs fans suggesting Toskala has been anything short of poor this season let alone excellent. Certainly no one I've seen on the Leafs board has tried to defend his play this season.

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02-08-2009, 02:12 PM
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This year it is Toskala that is making our defense look weaker than it is.

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02-08-2009, 02:16 PM
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Haha, weak post. Of course I've been out of Canada you putz. Just because there is great hockey being played out of North America, doesn't mean that it's on par with the National Hockey League.

And looking at it pretty objectively, of course Brendan Witt is a world class defenseman. And just because he has played as a top pairing, doesn't mean that is what he is - you know what I'm talking about, and well, if you don't, God help you.
Yes, but by that standard all NHLers are world class at their position. They're better than 99.9% of people who play hockey in the world. It doesn't really mean much to call them world class then.

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02-08-2009, 02:17 PM
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This year it is Toskala that is making our defense look weaker than it is.
Well, the Leafs defense has been quite poor as well. Kaberle and Kubina have both looked like guys knowing they were on their way out of town for good parts of the season. Schenn has been fantastic for a 19 year old, but obviously makes rookie mistakes, Van Ryn has been hurt most of the season and obviously isn't there for defensive play in the first place, Frogren and Finger don't have enough mobility and have both been pretty terrible outside of an ability to block shots and Stralman hasn't gotten a long enough look to get into a good groove. The defensive play has been terrible frankly, even if SA are down.

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02-08-2009, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
I'd like too see the Leafs fans suggesting Toskala has been anything short of poor this season let alone excellent. Certainly no one I've seen on the Leafs board has tried to defend his play this season.

In fact, I've seen many claim on this board that Toskala is still a very good goaltender who just needs to be on a better team.

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