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HF boards Top 100 all time--- #3

View Poll Results: Whose #3?
Gordie Howe 48 29.45%
Mario Lemieux 102 62.58%
Maurice Richard 4 2.45%
Bobby Hull 3 1.84%
Stan Mikita 0 0%
Eddie Shore 0 0%
Steve Yzerman 2 1.23%
Mark Messier 3 1.84%
Jean Beliveau 0 0%
Doug Harvey 1 0.61%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-08-2009, 09:53 PM
  #1
Canuxxx
 
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HF boards Top 100 all time--- #3

#1. Wayne Gretzky (45.54%)
#2. Bobby Orr (53.93%)

Remember to say who you want added.

Also please remember that this thread does not include goalies.

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Old
02-08-2009, 10:04 PM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
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Much better selection than last time.

Voted Howe. Add Howie Morenz and Raymond Bourque.

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Old
02-08-2009, 10:45 PM
  #3
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Lemieux

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Old
02-08-2009, 11:21 PM
  #4
kmad
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Lemieux

add Howie Morenz and Phil Esposito

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Old
02-08-2009, 11:22 PM
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Mario

add Morenz, Bourque, Lafleur, Esposito

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Old
02-09-2009, 08:33 AM
  #6
RabbinsDuck
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Howe accomplished about ten times more than Lemieux in his career, in a much lower scoring era. Unless this is a "could have been" poll, Howe is head and shoulders above Mario.

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Old
02-09-2009, 08:41 AM
  #7
thadd
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Voted for Gordie Howe. The longevity. The point total. The nickname. The cups. The personal awards.

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Old
02-09-2009, 08:57 AM
  #8
thadd
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Ovechkin - Gretzky - Howe
Orr - Robinson
Due to salary cap team pays an ice girl to play in net, and they win every game 100-10.

There's the greatest starting line-up of all time too.

Ovechkin's explosiveness, Gretzky and Orr's genius combined with the nastiness of Robinson and Howe.

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Old
02-09-2009, 08:59 AM
  #9
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Ovechkin shouldn't be up there yet with those guys

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Old
02-09-2009, 09:36 AM
  #10
Dark Shadows
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Gordie Howe. You need to stay Healthy to produce and Howe was an iron man who produced on Lemieux levels in the 50's, while being a feared physical presence and defensively sound forward.

People don't seem to realize just how high Howe's stats would have been given the 80's open ice play rather than the completely defensively dominated 50's. The 50's were even more defensive than the modern "Dead puck era" between 1997-2004. Back then Defensemen did not even join the rush and all forwards backchecked, or were demoted to the minors.

Just to illustrate How high Howe's scoring would be in the 80's....Ill take 5 of Howe's early years in the 50's and adjust them to mid 80's scoring levels.

1950-51: 67 goals, 135 points
1951-52: 78 goals, 143 points
1952-53: 89 goals, 173 points
1953-54: 60 goals, 146 points
1956-67: 71 goals, 145 points

This does not account for the fact that Howe was also a feared Physical presence and defensive forward, but it shows his scoring was top notch and comparable to Lemieux's, despite his much more complete game(If he was playing like everyone else in the 80's and opened it up forgetting about defense, he likely puts up Gretzky/Lemieux top numbers).

It also is only 5 of his early years. Howe was top 5 in scoring for 20 straight years. Not including those 5 years, he would have had a string of 55 goal, 120-130 point seasons on top of those. At age 40, Howe was not what he used to be, yet had his highest scoring year ever with 103 points. Why? Because the game had started to open up and he was still a top player(Although it was still nowhere near as wide open as the 80's)

Howe has 6 Hart Trophies, 6 Art Ross titles and 21 Right wing all star selections. He made those selections playing his prime against Maurice Richard, usually beating him.


Add Morenz, Bourque. Remove Yzerman.

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Old
02-09-2009, 09:47 AM
  #11
thadd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flashspec View Post
Ovechkin shouldn't be up there yet with those guys
I know... but he's the most dominant player I've watched in a few decades and I couldn't imagine what things would be like for him playing with #99, so he has to be there.

Plus he makes the starting line-up perfect. Got your sniper who can take care of himself, got your play maker, got your mean as they come powerforward, got your beyond offensively gifted defenseman and got your giant punishing defenseman with a huge point shot.

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Old
02-09-2009, 09:50 AM
  #12
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I have to give it to Howe.

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Old
02-09-2009, 09:53 AM
  #13
thadd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Gordie Howe. You need to stay Healthy to produce and Howe was an iron man who produced on Lemieux levels in the 50's, while being a feared physical presence and defensively sound forward.

People don't seem to realize just how high Howe's stats would have been given the 80's open ice play rather than the completely defensively dominated 50's. The 50's were even more defensive than the modern "Dead puck era" between 1997-2004. Back then Defensemen did not even join the rush and all forwards backchecked, or were demoted to the minors.

Just to illustrate How high Howe's scoring would be in the 80's....Ill take 5 of Howe's early years in the 50's and adjust them to mid 80's scoring levels.

1950-51: 67 goals, 135 points
1951-52: 78 goals, 143 points
1952-53: 89 goals, 173 points
1953-54: 60 goals, 146 points
1956-67: 71 goals, 145 points

This does not account for the fact that Howe was also a feared Physical presence and defensive forward, but it shows his scoring was top notch and comparable to Lemieux's, despite his much more complete game(If he was playing like everyone else in the 80's and opened it up forgetting about defense, he likely puts up Gretzky/Lemieux top numbers).

It also is only 5 of his early years. Howe was top 5 in scoring for 20 straight years. Not including those 5 years, he would have had a string of 55 goal, 120-130 point seasons on top of those. At age 40, Howe was not what he used to be, yet had his highest scoring year ever with 103 points. Why? Because the game had started to open up and he was still a top player(Although it was still nowhere near as wide open as the 80's)

Howe has 6 Hart Trophies, 6 Art Ross titles and 21 Right wing all star selections. He made those selections playing his prime against Maurice Richard, usually beating him.


Add Morenz, Bourque. Remove Yzerman.
Yep and to think that his stats would've been even higher if he hadn't jumped to the WHL.

I consider Messier to be a similar player to Howe... except Howe was better than him in every aspect of the game. Not suggesting that Messier wasn't an incredible player, though. He's surely one of the 5 best forwards to play out a full career since the 80's hit.

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Old
02-09-2009, 10:29 AM
  #14
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I wanted to vote for Howe soo badly, but I voted for Lemieux.

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Old
02-09-2009, 10:41 AM
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Voted for Lemieux.

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Old
02-09-2009, 10:43 AM
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Yzerman doesn't belong in that group of players.

I voted for Mr. Hockey.

add Bourque, Esposito, & Lafleur

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Old
02-09-2009, 10:46 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
Voted for Gordie Howe. The longevity. The point total. The nickname. The cups. The personal awards.
The personality.

GH all the way.

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Old
02-09-2009, 11:27 AM
  #18
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Howe accomplished about ten times more than Lemieux in his career, in a much lower scoring era. Unless this is a "could have been" poll, Howe is head and shoulders above Mario.
"ten times" is quite the hyperbole, but I agree with the rest of your post.

Anyway, I'm glad this is being done in the polls section. It'll be interesting to see how different it turns out from the list in the history of hockey section - which is the result of a much more laborious process.

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Old
02-09-2009, 11:28 AM
  #19
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Lemieux

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02-09-2009, 11:32 AM
  #20
RabbinsDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
"ten times" is quite the hyperbole, but I agree with the rest of your post.

Anyway, I'm glad this is being done in the polls section. It'll be interesting to see how different it turns out from the list in the history of hockey section - which is the result of a much more laborious process.
I'd place a hefty wager that Gordie Howe broke at least ten times as many records in the NHL as Mario Lemiuex.

To this day, he still holds more NHL records than Lemiuex:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ds_(individual)

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Old
02-09-2009, 12:00 PM
  #21
Helistin
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Add Kurri,Dionne,Trottier

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Old
02-09-2009, 01:33 PM
  #22
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helistin View Post
Add Kurri,Dionne,Trottier
Trottier yes. Kurri? Uh, no. Not till the 70's voting rolls around

And Dionne? his regular seasons were top 20/30 worthy, but his playoffs were around, generously, 300th? So he drops a great deal. Likely into the 50's

Nobody could have won a cup on Dionne's teams, but his individual playoff performance was exceptionally dreadful(His offensive production dropped 42%), despite playing on the strong triple crown line. He is probably the only HOF player who has never won a best of 7 series.

Here are some detailed posts from the History section discussions on these players.

Howe vs Lemieux
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...0&postcount=68
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...2&postcount=96

Marcel Dionne's playoffs by Hockey Outsider
http://geocities.com/thehockeyoutsider/Dionne.pdf

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Old
02-09-2009, 01:44 PM
  #23
Sleazy P Martini
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no goalies on this list yet? add plante and sawchuk?

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Old
02-09-2009, 02:03 PM
  #24
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Howwwwe

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Old
02-09-2009, 02:17 PM
  #25
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleazy P Martini View Post
no goalies on this list yet? add plante and sawchuk?
It never ceases to amaze me how few people actually read the original post to get info on the details before starting to gripe.

Next time you make the #4, make sure it says "Top 100, no goalies"

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