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Kaberle vs. Visnovsky

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Old
02-11-2009, 04:01 PM
  #26
Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
That would have been a very rare opinion last year.
Well that's because most people forget what a player is capable of when they are injured or recovering from an injury. Boyle had a freak accident that required him to have major wrist surgery and miss most of the season yet he still produced at a higher PPG clip than Kaberle last season.

Personally, I'd easily take Boyle over Kaberle. Not only do I feel that Boyle is a better player, but being a RH'ed shot, which is coveted by many teams, makes him more desirable.

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02-11-2009, 04:04 PM
  #27
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Well that's because most people forget what a player is capable of when they are injured or recovering from an injury.
This is true. This also goes for when they play for a lousy team.

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02-11-2009, 04:04 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
The thread is titled Visnovsky vs. Kaberle
Which makes the whole point of the thread to devalue Kaberle, which is ridiculous.

Kaberle at 4.25 million a season, for two seasons is much more palatable than Visnovsky at 5.6 for four.

A better comparison might be Visnovsky vs Kubina. I think I could agree there.

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02-11-2009, 04:07 PM
  #29
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Personally I would say Vis is closer to kaberle than Kubina. But my expectations for trade value will be similar to the Dan Boyle trade because of his contract. The Campbell trade is a good starting point, but more needs to be added because Campbell was a rental.

With the broken hand though, Im not sure he will even be traded this season. Might have to wait until the summer.

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02-11-2009, 04:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
Who ever said anything about Visnovskys cap hit? Why does Visnovsky matter anyway? He's not the one available in trade, Kaberle is.
Uhhhh, the entire thread is about comparing what Visnovsky got in a trade to what Kaberle could fetch. Personally I feel Kaberle's value is pretty comparable to Visnovsky's considering they are similar players, although Kaberle's contract is better.

Quote:
Kaberles cap hit, which there isn't much better, and his value as a puck mover, most certainly gives him Dan Boyle type value in trade.
Are you for real? You wonder why Visnovsky is being mentioned, in a thread titled "Value of: Kaberle vs. Visnovsky" no less, yet you bring up Dan Boyle, who also is not available.

Personally I think Visnovsky is just as good a comparison to Kaberle as Boyle is, if not better. Similar numbers, both are fairly soft, neither are great defensively and Visnovsky's contract is closer to Kaberle's.

Quote:
And 1.35 million is significant cap space, when you're right up against the cap.
I never said it wasn't. But that is the cost for having the player under contract for an additional two years. If any teams acquires Kaberle they only get him for the next two years at $4.25M, which may be quite fine for every team. But if they do want him for longer, I doubt they'll get him at that price.

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02-11-2009, 04:10 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
Which makes the whole point of the thread to devalue Kaberle, which is ridiculous.

Kaberle at 4.25 million a season, for two seasons is much more palatable than Visnovsky at 5.6 for four.

A better comparison might be Visnovsky vs Kubina. I think I could agree there.
Comparing Kaberle to Visnovsky is devaluing him? Wow, didn't realize Kaberle is in the calibur of Lidstrom, Nieds, and Chara.

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02-11-2009, 04:13 PM
  #32
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My take on this is Kaberle > Boyle > Visnovsky.

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02-11-2009, 04:18 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure View Post
Comparing Kaberle to Visnovsky is devaluing him? Wow, didn't realize Kaberle is in the calibur of Lidstrom, Nieds, and Chara.
Comparing return is though. Visnovsky was dealt for lousy return because of a lack of interest, which isn't likely to be the case for Kaberle.

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02-11-2009, 04:21 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Comparing return is though. Visnovsky was dealt for lousy return because of a lack of interest, which isn't likely to be the case for Kaberle.
Good point.

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02-11-2009, 04:23 PM
  #35
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And really, the return for Vis wasnt bad at all. Stoll leaving the Oilers has left them unable to win faceoffs and kill penalties. He has been great for the Kings, from what Kings fans say on hfboards. Greene as well was extended for another five years by DL.

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02-11-2009, 04:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Comparing return is though. Visnovsky was dealt for lousy return because of a lack of interest, which isn't likely to be the case for Kaberle.
Stoll and Green aren't bad returns. Ask Kings fans. Only on HF are prospects and picks that much more valuable than roster players. Boyle definitely got more return because hes better. Kaberle's value (with his contract and all, only leaving out current health) IMO, is in between Boyle and Visnovsky. I'm asking if his trade value is closer to one or the other.

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02-11-2009, 04:29 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure View Post
Stoll and Green aren't bad returns. Ask Kings fans. Only on HF are prospects and picks that much more valuable than roster players. Boyle definitely got more return because hes better. Kaberle's value (with his contract and all, only leaving out current health) IMO, is in between Boyle and Visnovsky. I'm asking if his trade value is closer to one or the other.
Well, this is all debatable, I'm not really expressing an opinion on Stoll and Greene.

We should bear in mind that Boyle's contract is much worse than Kaberle's. I'm sure that weighed on some teams minds when they were trading for him last year, especially coming off injury.

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Old
02-11-2009, 04:29 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Visnovsky is actually a pretty good comparable for Kaberle. Similar point totals over the last 4 seasons and while Visnovsky's cap hit is higher, he's also signed for longer. As soon as Kaberle's contract is up in two years he's going to be asking for similar coin.
Power Play production:
Kaberle: 4 minutes 31 second per game
0.55PPG/60 Top 50 Dmen.
4.70PPTs/60 Top 20 for Dmen
Vishnovsky: 4 minutes 43 second per game
1.3PPG/60 Top 20 for Dmen
3.12PPpts/60 Top 50 for Dmen

This is a wash. Kaberle Is a PP point Quarterback. Vishnovsky is a PP Scoring option. Depends on your teams desire.

Penalty Kill:
Kaberle: 1 minutes 8 second per game
11.04GA/60 7th worst in the league
Vishnovsky: 30 second per game
12.06GA/60 3rd worst in the league

Neither of these guys should go near the ice during the penalty kill.
Pretty much even so far.

Even Strength:
Kaberle: 17 minutes 8 second per game
.07 EvG/60 Bottom 40 Dmen
.80 Ev Pts/60 Top 60 Dmen
3.36 EVGA/60 5th worst Dman in the league
-.54(+-ON/60)Outscoring: bottom Dmen30 in the league.
Vishnovsky: 16 minutes 45 seconds per game
.15 EvG/60 top 60 Dmen
.88 Ev Pts/60 top 45 Dmen
1.90 EvGA/60 Top 20 Dman in the league
+.66(+-ON/60)Outscoring: top 30 Dmen in the league

At Even Strength Vishnovsky is slightly superior at scoring goals and Point production.

The diffrence is Even Defensive Play. Kaberle is one on the Ten worst EV defensive dmen in the league right now. You can forgive a bit of Defensive weakness for offensive dmen. But Kaberle is such a defensive nightmare at even that his PP production doesn't even come close to making a diffrence for his even play. Putting Kaberle on your team guarantees you are going to lose more games than you would win with him on your team.

Vishnovsky is One of the 20 best EV Defensive Dmen in the league, an outscorer ,and will win you games.

I don't remember Kaberle being this bad at evens. Maybe a change of scenery will make a difference. But for a team trying to make the playoffs. It is suicide!

That being said there will probably be a GM willing to look past this. At the trade deadline. Desperation causes you to do silly things.


Last edited by oilerbear: 02-11-2009 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Add Bold
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Old
02-11-2009, 04:29 PM
  #39
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Oh you again. I dont care what your website tells you

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Old
02-11-2009, 04:30 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure View Post
Stoll and Green aren't bad returns. Ask Kings fans. Only on HF are prospects and picks that much more valuable than roster players. Boyle definitely got more return because hes better. Kaberle's value (with his contract and all, only leaving out current health) IMO, is in between Boyle and Visnovsky. I'm asking if his trade value is closer to one or the other.
And really, the Lightning didn't get all that much for Boyle anyway. They got a struggling young defenseman who many were questioning his ability to live up to his new contract, a good/decent prospect and a late 1st round pick. The Lightning will be lucky if any of those assets has the impact at the NHL level that Stoll has and they obviously had no interest in Carle as they dealt him shortly after.

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Old
02-11-2009, 04:30 PM
  #41
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Again, those stats are only for this year. It's hard to draw serious conclusions about a player from one year on a bad team.

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02-11-2009, 04:34 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
Power Play production:
Kaberle: 4 minutes 31 second per game
0.55PPG/60 Top 50 Dmen.
4.70PPTs/60 Top 20 for Dmen
Vishnovsky: 4 minutes 43 second per game
1.3PPG/60 Top 20 for Dmen
3.12PPpts/60 Top 50 for Dmen

This is a wash. Kaberle Is a PP point Quarterback. Vishnovsky is a PP Scoring option. Depends on your teams desire.

Penalty Kill:
Kaberle: 1 minutes 8 second per game
11.04GA/60 7th worst in the league
Vishnovsky: 30 second per game
12.06GA/60 3rd worst in the league

Neither of these guys should go near the ice during the penalty kill.
Pretty much even so far.

Even Strength:
Kaberle: 17 minutes 8 second per game
.07 EvG/60 Bottom 40 Dmen
.80 Ev Pts/60 Top 60 Dmen
3.36 EVGA/60 5th worst Dman in the league
-.54(+-ON/60)Outscoring: bottom Dmen30 in the league.
Vishnovsky: 16 minutes 45 seconds per game
.15 EvG/60 top 60 Dmen
.88 Ev Pts/60 top 45 Dmen
1.90 EvGA/60 Top 20 Dman in the league
+.66(+-ON/60)Outscoring: top 30 Dmen in the league

At Even Strength Vishnovsky is slightly superior at scoring goals and Point production.

The diffrence is Even Defensive Play. Kaberle is one on the Ten worst EV defensive dmen in the league right now. You can forgive a bit of Defensive weakness for offensive dmen. But Kaberle is such a defensive nightmare at even that his PP production doesn't even come close to making a diffrence for his even play. Putting Kaberle on your team guaratees you are going to lose more games than you would win with him off your team.

Vishnovsky is One of the 20 best EV Defensive Dmen in the league, an outscorer ,and will win you games.


I don't remember Kaberle being this bad at evens. Maybe a change of scenery will make a difference. But for a team trying to make the playoffs. It is suicide!

That being said there will probably be a GM willing to look past this. At the trade deadline. Desperation causes you to do silly things.
Alright, I'll bite. If Vish wins you games via outscoring, what went wrong on his LA and EDM teams?

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Old
02-11-2009, 04:35 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
And really, the Lightning didn't get all that much for Boyle anyway. They got a struggling young defenseman who many were questioning his ability to live up to his new contract, a good/decent prospect and a late 1st round pick. The Lightning will be lucky if any of those assets has the impact at the NHL level that Stoll has and they obviously had no interest in Carle as they dealt him shortly after.
True. In a couple of years, Lombardi could turn out to have the best return for his defenseman (out of Tampa GM, burke and himself).

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Old
02-11-2009, 04:35 PM
  #44
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Oilbear, put up the link to your website so everyone can see where you get your stats from.

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Old
02-11-2009, 04:36 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Kaberle v. Boyle is a nice comparison as players, and Kaberle makes half as much for half as long. Both good #1 defensemen, elite offensive performers who are decent defensively as well, who are borderline top-10 defensemen in the league in good years.

Visnovsky isn't as good as either of them in any department, and has an awful contract.
He's worth every penny of that contract.

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Old
02-11-2009, 05:47 PM
  #46
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If Kaberle played for a small market team...

His value to Leaf fans
Poni
3rd rounder

His value to the rest of the league
1st rounder 2009
2nd rounder 2009
2nd 2010/1st rounder 2011
Top end prospect
Mid level prospect


Kaberle's value while he plays in Toronto...

His value to Leaf fans
1st rounder 2009
2nd rounder 2009
Two top prospects
Young high potential roster player


His value to the rest of the league
2nd rounder 2009
4th rounder 2009
4-6 spot defenseman
Mid level prospect



There's never any common ground....

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Old
02-11-2009, 05:55 PM
  #47
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All three of them are very similar players. Offensive defensemen who are not very good in their own zone. Boyle has improved in that regard this season while Kaberle's shortcomings are being very exposed. Vishnovsky is hurt.

It is somewhat difficult to see how much of an effect the Sharks overall good play is boosting Boyle, vs how much Boyle is boosting the Sharks. Personally I think he is the best of the three. It's a lot easier to see how Kaberle's poor defensive play is hurting the Leafs, however. Defensive liability doesn't even begin to describe him.

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Old
02-11-2009, 06:03 PM
  #48
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Boyle per point gets paid 166,667.50
Kaberle per point gets paid 150,000.00

Prety close, considering they both get paid to score points.

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02-11-2009, 06:07 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Common sense.
Because we all thought he would take 4.25M in the first place.

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Old
02-11-2009, 07:17 PM
  #50
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Because we all thought he would take 4.25M in the first place.
You seriously feel there is a good chance he signs for a similar amount for his next contract if he doesn't regress too much? I'd say that was wishful thinking.

Not many Canucks' fans felt Mattias Ohlund would take $3.5M when he signed his contract but not many would be surprised if he were to get more on the open market this July despite his play regressing.

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