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Old
02-13-2009, 10:04 PM
  #1
Ched Brosky
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Stl/van

To STL:
Mason Raymond
Taylor Pyatt (salary dump)
3rd round pick

To Van:
Keith Tkachuk

STL gets a 3rd round pick, expiring contract, and a young speedy winger.

Van gets an expierenced player in Tkachuk to help the Sedins.

Thoughts?

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Old
02-13-2009, 10:07 PM
  #2
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Old
02-13-2009, 10:09 PM
  #3
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Mass overpayment from the Canucks. Hell no.

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Old
02-13-2009, 10:12 PM
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Doubt the Nucks would do that.

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Old
02-13-2009, 10:12 PM
  #5
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This would be a worst case scenario type trade for the Blues, if they couldn't get a first, or even a 2nd from another team.

They have no use for Pyatt or Raymond.

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Old
02-13-2009, 10:17 PM
  #6
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From a Vancouver point of view, lets not and say we didn't.

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Old
02-14-2009, 01:27 AM
  #7
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Surprised by the negative reaction from Canuck fans. Raymond doesn't really belong on our roster as it stands, Pyatt is very much expendable, and a 3rd isn't that tough to let go of. Assuming Tkachuk can play RW (could certainly be wrong) I'd do it easily.

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Old
02-14-2009, 01:41 AM
  #8
eklunds source
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Webb View Post
Surprised by the negative reaction from Canuck fans. Raymond doesn't really belong on our roster as it stands, Pyatt is very much expendable, and a 3rd isn't that tough to let go of. Assuming Tkachuk can play RW (could certainly be wrong) I'd do it easily.
1) It's his first full NHL season. How can he not belong on our roster? He's a prospect in the middle of his sophmore season - by games played he's covered barely a year and change. Give him a chance to develop.

2) A 3rd round draft pick has the same chance of returning a star player than a 2nd rounder; presumably there are more high risk-high reward players taken... Would you give up a 2nd? I would consider a late 2nd and a 3rd to be of equal value..

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Old
02-14-2009, 01:42 AM
  #9
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umm Pyatt scored tonight, so we like him again

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Old
02-14-2009, 02:01 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
1) It's his first full NHL season. How can he not belong on our roster? He's a prospect in the middle of his sophmore season - by games played he's covered barely a year and change. Give him a chance to develop.

2) A 3rd round draft pick has the same chance of returning a star player than a 2nd rounder; presumably there are more high risk-high reward players taken... Would you give up a 2nd? I would consider a late 2nd and a 3rd to be of equal value..
He doesn't belong right now because he isnt good enough to be in the lineup. He doesn't help the team currently. I'm not saying he can't have a future, I'm saying he's not a good player right now, and hasn't shown signs that he will be anytime soon. He has 10 ES points in 50 games, a good chunk of those coming in the first 2 weeks of the season. He's not strong physically, he's not strong defensively, and he isn't scoring. My bad if I don't think he's a lock to put up 30/30.

As far as Pyatt, I actually like him a lot more than most Nuck fans, but it's hard to argue that losing him would hurt much.

And yeah, as far as the logic that a 2nd = a 3rd, awesome. Hell, I say from now on we just trade our 2nd for a 3rd every year for ***** n giggles. I guess a 1st = a 2nd which in turn = a 3rd. Holy smokes, we could probably get a 5th and a 6th instead of a 2nd from some poor saps!

But anyways, I think the team can do some damage, and adding Tkachuk to the roster and subtracting Raymond/Pyatt makes us stronger. The difference is I think the edge it would give us warrants losing a struggling 23 yr old winger who's in the press box, a decent utility winger, and a 3rd.

If Tkachuk can play RW I'd be really happy with :

Sedin-Sedin-Tkachuk
Demitra-Sundin-Kesler
Burrows-Wellwood-Bernier
Hordi-Johnson-Hansen

*Once concern I would have is losing Pyatt's PK... hrmph...

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Old
02-14-2009, 02:04 AM
  #11
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I would be SHOCKED if Gillis traded a young asset like Raymond for a rental player.

He's made it pretty clear that he isn't interested in trading a player like Raymond for a rental player.

The best he'd be willing to offer for Tkachuk is most likely a 2nd round draft pick and a prospect like Patrick White which may not be enough to get it done.

Personally I do believe priority number one has to be a puck moving defencemen but if none is available then the better question is will a 2nd round draft pick and White be enough for Tkachuk??

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Old
02-14-2009, 02:10 AM
  #12
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Sure, that all sounds good to me, I just figure there's a very real chance Raymond doesn't make the team out of camp next year and all of a sudden we're gonna sound like Oil fans trying to build up Robby Schremp.

I have no clue about White except that there seems to be virtually 0 excitement about him, but yeah, if we dealt him I think I'd still manage to fall asleep at night. The PMD issue is tough because I really believe we have a quality D 1-6 but on nights like tonight, ugh, we sure could have used one.

I guess it just comes down to me not having a lot of faith in Raymond.

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Old
02-14-2009, 02:40 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Webb View Post
He doesn't belong right now because he isnt good enough to be in the lineup. He doesn't help the team currently. I'm not saying he can't have a future, I'm saying he's not a good player right now, and hasn't shown signs that he will be anytime soon. He has 10 ES points in 50 games, a good chunk of those coming in the first 2 weeks of the season. He's not strong physically, he's not strong defensively, and he isn't scoring. My bad if I don't think he's a lock to put up 30/30.

As far as Pyatt, I actually like him a lot more than most Nuck fans, but it's hard to argue that losing him would hurt much.

And yeah, as far as the logic that a 2nd = a 3rd, awesome. Hell, I say from now on we just trade our 2nd for a 3rd every year for ***** n giggles. I guess a 1st = a 2nd which in turn = a 3rd. Holy smokes, we could probably get a 5th and a 6th instead of a 2nd from some poor saps!

But anyways, I think the team can do some damage, and adding Tkachuk to the roster and subtracting Raymond/Pyatt makes us stronger. The difference is I think the edge it would give us warrants losing a struggling 23 yr old winger who's in the press box, a decent utility winger, and a 3rd.

If Tkachuk can play RW I'd be really happy with :

Sedin-Sedin-Tkachuk
Demitra-Sundin-Kesler
Burrows-Wellwood-Bernier
Hordi-Johnson-Hansen

*Once concern I would have is losing Pyatt's PK... hrmph...
If he`s not good enough to be in the lineup, we should put him in the pressbox, not another teams uni. Tkachuk doesn`t put us over the top as contenders and there`s no sense trading prospects and picks unless it`s a situation that DOES put us over the top. As of right now I don`t think there`s an ideal trade out there, certainly not in Tkachuk (as much as I`d love to see him a Canuck).

I`m not saying a 3rd = a 2nd, I`m saying that it produces as much stars as a 2nd does.

You know all that success Steve Mason is having in Columbus? He was a 3rd rounder. Letang is a prized young player in Pittsburgh that will help them stay under the salary cap and competitive with his ELC and RFA contracts, and he was a 3rd rounder. Kris Russell, Jon Quick, Cody Franson, TJ Hensick, Patrick Sharp.

Who is the Canucks best young defenseman that we've had since Ohlund? Who we would refuse to include in any trade proposals? Edler. A third rounder. I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but if you never draft anyone you'll never find a star and the 3rd round is statistically just as likely to uncover one as the second round.

You cannot be competitive in the NHL for ANY extended period of time without drafting well. The advantage Tkachuk brings us in the short-term is good, but not good enough to justify continually gutting our team of draft picks and prospects.

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Old
02-14-2009, 03:51 AM
  #14
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Yeah I hear you ES, we just have different views on Raymond. Well that and 2nd vs 3rd rounders.

If you really believe they produce as many stars/NHLers as 2nd's I think you're dead wrong. Obviously the discrepancy between a 1st and a 2nd is larger, but the discrepancy between a 2 and a 3 still exists. I don't see the point in parading a couple of successful 3rds does to bolster your argument. Nobody is saying that a player who was drafted in the 3rd round has no chance of being any good.

You like Raymond more than I do, I like Tkachuk more than you do, and I prefer 2's to 3s, that's all.

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Old
02-14-2009, 04:53 AM
  #15
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Went through recent drafts, best 2nd rounders from 2001-2006

Milan Lucic
James Neal
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Paul Stastny
David Booth
Brandon Dubinsky
Alex Goligoski
David Krejci
Louie Eriksson
Patrice Bergeron
Shea Weber
Patrick O'Sullivan
David Backes
Jarret Stoll
Duncan Keith
Jiri Hudler
Josh Harding
Derek Roy
Fedor Tyutin
Mike Cammalleri
Jason Pominville

Best 3rds from same years

Steve Mason
Kristopher Letang
Kris Russell
Jonathan Quick
T.J. Hensick
Andrej Sekera
Alexander Edler
Johan Franzen
Clarke MacArthur
Daniel Carcillo
Alexandre Picard
Greg Campbell
Matthew Lombardi
Valtteri Filppula
Tomas Plekanec
Craig Anderson
Patrick Sharp

Pretty significant discrepancy I think you'll agree, but I gotta say, a lot more quality NHLers out of round 3 than I would have guessed over 6 years.

Now the only question that remains is ......

Tkachuk for Raymond/Pyatt/4th

Good night/morning!

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Old
02-14-2009, 07:33 AM
  #16
Dawit49
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Tkachuk & 1st 2009

For

Kesler


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Old
02-14-2009, 07:48 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawit49 View Post
Tkachuk & 1st 2009

For

Kesler

Canucks would need a centre back, so that would entail a player like Berglund or Eller coming to Vancouver instead of the 1st, and I can't see Blue's fans liking that for whatever reason, despite the inclusion of Ryan Kesler.


In short: St. Louis is not acquiring Kesler.

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Old
02-14-2009, 08:11 AM
  #18
Dawit49
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Canucks would need a centre back, so that would entail a player like Berglund or Eller coming to Vancouver instead of the 1st, and I can't see Blue's fans liking that for whatever reason, despite the inclusion of Ryan Kesler.


In short: St. Louis is not acquiring Kesler.
A part of me knew that already. I just want Kesler.

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Old
02-14-2009, 09:20 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawit49 View Post
Tkachuk & 1st 2009

For

Kesler

Are you high?

P_B

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Old
02-14-2009, 09:28 AM
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Dawit49
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Are you high?

P_B
I wish, i just felt like showing my love for Kesler

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Old
02-14-2009, 09:34 AM
  #21
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I wish, i just felt like showing my love for Kesler
value-wise, it's too much IMO for Kesler... seeing as how the Blues are likely not going to make the playoffs and should get a top 10 pick in this draft, the chances are that the player you could pick in that spot will be better than Kesler.

for the canucks, they'd simply be swapping Kesler for Tkachuk for this year, and then add a quality top 10 pick.

But even though the value favours the blues, the canucks aren't going to move Kesler. He's been given a leadership role with the team this year, and has been having his best season to date. He's also shown that he has offensive upside, playing in an offensive role for the first time in his career, after staring (getting Selke recognition) in a defensive role as the team's shutdown center, till now.

Because of how valuable Kesler is to the team, he won't be dealt.... but value-wise, the canucks would win this deal.

Of course for the blues, they're still way better off keeping that pick, which should turn into a better player than Kesler, since they are rebuilding, and should value that pick's upside more than Kesler's current level of play.

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Old
02-14-2009, 12:35 PM
  #22
Hi-wayman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty Webb View Post
Surprised by the negative reaction from Canuck fans. Raymond doesn't really belong on our roster as it stands, Pyatt is very much expendable, and a 3rd isn't that tough to let go of. Assuming Tkachuk can play RW (could certainly be wrong) I'd do it easily.
Tkachuk would fit well with the Canucks this season, but that would be it - this season only. He turns 37 next month and plays best with a player like Sundin rather than with players like the Sedins. He plays best as a centre or LW rather than RW, but can play RW also.

Raymond is only in his second year as an NHLer. Give him time. He brings an element of speed the team needs and will likely turn into a quality 1st or 2nd line winger. He has far too much upside that he is likely to reach or come close to to be traded for a rental, let alone be just part of a package for that rental.

Pyatt is very under-rated on this board. He is a very solid 3rd line, defensive forward. I think fans dislike for him is due to their expectation that he should be a first line power forward, but that his not his game. That said, he is expendable only becuase we have Burrows and Hansen who could step into his roster spot if necessary, but at this time Pyatt is more experienced and thus better than Hansen. Pyatt alone should garner a rental like Tkachuk plus a late to mid round pick.

In a strong draft like this season, Tkachuk should only earn a 4th round pick. In a more normal draft a 3rd and a poor draft a 2nd. Good chance is if he does sign to play again next season, he will go right back to the Blues. Without Sundin next season, he will not fit the Canucks so well as some of our younger prospects like Hodgson, Hansen and Grabner.
Tkachuk would make this years Canucks stronger, but adding Tkachuk would not make the Canucks a cup contender anymore than they are now. With Tkachuk, provided we just gave up a pick for him, a more realistic lineup would be:

Tkachuk-Sundin-Demitra
Sedin-Sedin-Bernier/Wellwood
Burrows-Kesler-Pyatt
Hordichuk-Johnson-Hansen


Last edited by Hi-wayman: 02-14-2009 at 12:54 PM.
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Old
02-14-2009, 12:46 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
In a strong draft like this season, Tkachuk should only earn a 4th round pick. In a more normal draft a 3rd and a poor draft a 2nd. Good chance is if he does sign to play again next season, he will go right back to the Blues. Without Sundin next season, he will not fit the Canucks so well as some of our younger prospects like Hodgson, Hansen and Grabner.


Wow. Just Wow. A fourth rounder.... Man... I don't even know what so say.

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Old
02-14-2009, 12:58 PM
  #24
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Can we at least point out the fact that Tkachuk has a NTC and probably won't waive it this season with the Blues still picking up points to pretend they're in the playoff race... and even if they did spiral back down to reality he'd still say no to Vancouver as a destination.

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Old
02-14-2009, 01:02 PM
  #25
Hi-wayman
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Wow. Just Wow. A fourth rounder.... Man... I don't even know what so say.
Yes a fourth rounder & all wrapped up as a free gift to the Blues. Tkachuk has made it clear he likes to play for the Blues. Unless a team is going to throw stupid money at him to sign next season, Tkachuk is either going to retire or come right back to the Blues. What do you expect another team to pay for just a couple of months use of Tkachuk - the team's franchise players for the next 30 years?

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