2) Primeau is having a sub par year. If you're judging solely by this years stats, Lang is a better offensive player than Sundin. I certainly don't think that is the case, do you?
Didn't you say you wanted the players to be judged on this year? Make up your mind.
As well, if you started a thread to help resolve a dispute, then shouldn't you be obstaining from making a case?
Niewendyk's defensive abilities are vastly underrated around here. This is a guy that played nearly a decade of hockey in the 2 of the most strictest defensive systems of that era. He excelled in both, consistently contributing between 20 and 35 goals, leading his team in game winning goals every season and playoffs while being a very steady force in his own zone. This hasn't really changed, aside from his health and some footspeed, Nieuwendyk is still a lethal playoff performer and a great guy to have who's experience grows by the year.
He's an exceptional leader and team player, exceptional in the circle, a very solid two way player and probably one of the top playoff/clutch performers in the game today. He has also won 3 rings with 3 difference teams, how many active players can say that?
Niewendyk's defensive abilities are vastly underrated around here. This is a guy that played nearly a decade of hockey in the 2 of the most strictest defensive systems of that era. He excelled in both, consistently contributing between 20 and 35 goals, leading his team in game winning goals every season and playoffs while being a very steady force in his own zone. This hasn't really changed, aside from his health and some footspeed, Nieuwendyk is still a lethal playoff performer and a great guy to have who's experience grows by the year.
He's an exceptional leader and team player, exceptional in the circle, a very solid two way player and probably one of the top playoff/clutch performers in the game today. He has also won 3 rings with 3 difference teams, how many active players can say that?
I take Nieuwendyk by a considerable margain..
You also think Modano is god, not good for your opinion !!
You can call it a homer pick but I would take Preems over Niewy.
Primeau is out there to shut down the top lines around the league. You could tell when he was out how much the Flyers missed him on the ice. Can you tell that much when Joe is out?
Primeau is a big centerman that can crush people, always finishes his checks and is willing to drop the gloves if need be.
Now, Niewy, it's a question of how long he can stay healthy and that really can apply to alot of guys on the Leafs.
I would still take Primeau right now by far over fragile ol Joe.
How convenient to not mention that you are a Habs fan. And that hence your dislike for the Leafs is way stronger than your dislike for the Flyers, unless you are an extremely exceptional Habs fan...
Nieuwendyk has nearly twice as many points as Primeau...
You're failing to take into account the roles that they play. Keith Primeau is a defensive forward now, and has to line up against the opposing teams top line night in and night out. He's a shut down center, and as a result his points totals have suffered.
If Primeau were in Nieuwendyk's position in Toronto, he WOULD be able to put up a very similar amount of points, without question. The gap between the two players offensive ability is not as wide as the gap between their defensive ability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchLeafsfan
I guess you would take Kris Draper over Joe Thornton as well? After all they are 'close' offensively, and Deaper is the better defensive player hands down...
Yikes, awful comparison. I really shouldn't even have to tell you all the reasons why that is a poor comparison, because more than likely you already know.
What's with the "if Primeau didnt have to do this he would be better offensively" crap? He does and doesn't have as many points.. so lets make the trek back from "hypothetical land" shall we.
Plus the OP seems to have some odd criteria for this "discussion"
Quote:
"All I'm saying is judge by skills and by watching a player, not by the stats they put up. You can make a case for stats saying anything
I'm thinking that he doesn't want "impartial" discussion, but discussion that backs his point only. Odd that he would come to this place for opinions proving that any player is better than a Maple Leaf. This place is incredibly impartial when it comes to the Toronto Maple Leafs.
The refs hate you, the league hates you, all of HF boards hate you.
The Leafs have some kind of consipiracy theorists for fans.
I like the Leafs, I'm Canadian, and I think they may have a shot at the cup this year. I just don't think Nieuwendyk is all that great...
Here's a idea, when you ask for a person opinion on something how about listening to it and accepting it instead of insulting it? I mean, if you already had your mind made up why ask the question? You wanna prove your friends wrong but people disagree with you, get over it.
If you look at their offensive numbers over the last 3 years, (not counting the current year), Primeau is slightly ahead offensively averaging 55 points to Nieuwendyk's 51. Primeau did have one excellent year in there (73 points if I remember right), so you could say that's an anomoly, but the difference in offensive skills isn't that large, IMO.
ok so for all the ppl who think KP doesn't score as much because he's playing for hitchcock, joe was playing for dallas and NJ, clearly not high tempo teams. but hey we're suposed to be looking at the here and now right?
so lets look at the last 3 years INCLUDING this year. joe averages 9 more points over that span and plays more games.
however it's the things that you can't put on paper that makes Joe great. just look at poni and antro. i'm sorry but KP doesn't make the players around him better like Joe does. I'd put the sky line up against any second line right now.
I'd take Nieuwendyk over Primeau any day of the week.
You can have him and a 1st round bye-bye again. It's a shame the Flyers won't be there to oblige. Oh, wait... Al Morganti said the Leafs are his favorite to win the east. That makes me feel better.
Here's a idea, when you ask for a person opinion on something how about listening to it and accepting it instead of insulting it? I mean, if you already had your mind made up why ask the question? You wanna prove your friends wrong but people disagree with you, get over it.
I'm not being insulting, I have an opinion on this, but I'm certainly willing to listen to anyone who puts forth a respectable arguement.
The problem is people are agreeing with me that Primeau is better, so the one Leaf fan had the gall to pull out the "boo-hoo, everyone hates us" arguement.
God forbid someone think there's a player better than any Leaf.
Now, I'm biased, but Nieuwendyk is the better player of the two.
Primeau is better defensively, but Nieuwendyk was a perfect fit on the defensive Devils last season. Absolutely he was great defensively in the zone, was willing to play the system that Primeau does and he did it well. There were times he was playing as a checking center, just as every center does from time to time on NJ, and he still put up almost 20 goals.
Nieuwendyk is also better offensively than Primeau, no doubt. Just watch him play and watch Primeau play, and Nieuwendyk's hands are MUCH better than Primeaus. Faceoffs give Nieuy a big edge too.
In terms of leadership, there is no one better. The Devils won Game 7 of the ECF last season for this guy. Langenbrunner, his buddy, went out and single-handedly brought the Devils into the match. Nieuwendyk, as a leader, as a presence in the locker room, is increadible. In terms of that, there's absolutely no comparison.
The injury argument doesn't make sense as Nieuwendyk is on pace to play more games than Primeau. Come the playoffs, I'd rather have Nieuy. Period. That's no knock on Primeau, understand, he's a great player and fills his role as effectively as Nieuwendyk fills his.
As for Nieuy making the hall of fame... I think he is in. Nieuwendyk, with three cups on three teams, is one of the great leaders of his time. Look what he's done in the Leafs locker room in this season - I don't give him all the credit, but his presence has done wonders for that club. For those reasons, Nieuwendyk should go into the Hall. If the Leafs win the cup this year, and Nieuwendyk wins his 4th cup with his 4th team, it becomes not even a question. Nieuwendyk is one of the great players of his time, and while it has seemingly passed, he is still a "rangy old vet" who adds so much to a team.
Nieuwy may make the hall (he is not a lock) that doesn't make him a better player right now than Primeau is.
In Calgary he was the man.. that was almost 20 years ago.
He did have a great playoff the year Dallas won the cup... that's what 5 years ago now?
He played no part in New Jersey's playoff success last year.. he was in the dressing room crying because he couldn't play (because part of his fragile body gave out on him once again)... the year before when NJ acquired him he had 1 assist in their playoff loss.
Primeau may not be as offensively gifted but he doesn't need to be. He hits and leads and chips in with the timely goals when need be. He is hands down the better of the two right now and future hall of fame accolades are irrelevant.
I would take both Primeau or Nieuwy over Gretzky and Mario right now. See how silly that argument looks now?
You're talking about Primeau like he is a force in the NHL right now. Primeau is no spring chicken himself. He might be a good defensive center and a physical presence, but that's all he is. He's slow, he can't produce 6 goals, wow! and he's fragile. Nieuwendyk isn't a number one center anymore, but he has twice the amount of points, three times as many goals in basically the same amount of games played. Nieuwendyk isn't nearly as physical, but he's a better leader, has won 3 Stanley Cups, and is more productive.
So Primeau is basically bigger and more physical. He's also slower, much worse offensively, hasn't nearly the amount of experience Nieuwy has. Nieuwendyk was at the top of his game a long time ago, but he has aged well. Primeau is like Joel Otto at the end of his career.
The fact I'm a Habs fan has nothing to do with my views on Primeau and Nieuwy.
Primeau is the cog for the Flyers while Nieuwy is a nice spare part for the Leafs.. wonder why no teams were batting down his door to sign him this year?
I happen to like Niewy.. but I wouln't pick him at 38 with a bad hip/back/2 artificial knees over Primeau.. and that was the question asked by the OP of this thread was it not?
The fact I'm a Habs fan has nothing to do with my views on Primeau and Nieuwy.
Primeau is the cog for the Flyers while Nieuwy is a nice spare part for the Leafs.. wonder why no teams were batting down his door to sign him this year?
I happen to like Niewy.. but I wouln't pick him at 38 with a bad hip/back/2 artificial knees over Primeau.. and that was the question asked by the OP of this thread was it not?
Nice spare part?
How does it feel to not know anything? On production ALONE, Nieuwendyk has 38 points in 51 games, which is around 50 points in 70. That pace puts him third on your Montreal roster and third on Philly. Primeau, the cog that he is, has 6 goals. He might be good defensively, but his mediocrity on offense counts against him, no?
