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Primeau vs Nieuwendyk

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Old
03-10-2004, 07:24 PM
  #51
DutchLeafsfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
while Nieuwy is a nice spare part for the Leafs.. wonder why no teams were batting down his door to sign him this year?
Might have had something to do with Nieuwendyk holding out for an offer by the Leafs...

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Old
03-10-2004, 08:28 PM
  #52
shakes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
I'm not being insulting, I have an opinion on this, but I'm certainly willing to listen to anyone who puts forth a respectable arguement.

The problem is people are agreeing with me that Primeau is better, so the one Leaf fan had the gall to pull out the "boo-hoo, everyone hates us" arguement.

God forbid someone think there's a player better than any Leaf.
Sorry.. I guess when you said respectabe argument you meant a fantasy argument where stats have nothing do do with who is better and where the more objective and tangable "who looks better" type of discussion is king. By all means then continue on..

Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
All I'm saying is judge by skills and by watching a player, not by the stats they put up. You can make a case for stats saying anything

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Old
03-10-2004, 09:01 PM
  #53
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OK, first off, Primeau is not slow as a previous poster suggested, in fact he is an excellent skater especially for a guy his size.

Second, the only reason Primeau is injured as much as he is is because he is a warrior who lays his body on the line night after night. Compare that to Joe, who plays a soft game, but is injured almost as much.

Third, Primeau's faceoff % is about 8% lower than Niewendykes (52% to 60%), a noticable, but not terribly significant difference. Since both might be in the circle a dozen times per night, thats the difference of about one extra faceoff won per game on average. That one faceoff might be important, but it more than likely will not significantly impact the game overall.

Fourth, more fun with Statistics. Over the last four regular seasons here are their scoring totals.

________GP_G__A__TPS
Primeau 277 78 110 188
Nieuwie 281 85 107 192

Not the overwhelming difference people are claiming. Since Primeau is being used as a checking center this year while Joe gets to play second line center for a team that isnt known for its defensive play and more offensively gifted linemates, Joes numbers are higher this year.

fifth. Anyone else remember how long it took to sign Niewendyke this summer? He was finally signed to a 2 mil$ contract, a deal, because no one else (including New Jersey) was willing to take a risk on his play or his health. He was repeatedly passed on by other teams, many if not most of whom could have easily found the extra room in the salary structure for a guy like him if he was still the player Toronto fans now think he is.

In case you havent guessed, my vote goes to Primeau. I recognize that Nieuwendyke is a great player, and that their roles are different though. So why compare the two anyway? Zhamnov is a much better comarison to Joe. Primeau is a better checking center than anyone on the leafs. I mean, who is there that fills his role? Antropov? Tucker? Reichel? In evaluating a head to head matchup, it seems to me that you should at least compare similar players. Its like trying to compare Scott Stevens with Gonchar.

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Old
03-10-2004, 09:15 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
The people have spoken.. it's Primeau

and that ain't garbage

no GM would take a fragile bag of bones like Nieuwy over a two way behemoth like Primeau right now.
38 points in 52 games from a "bag of bones" is pretty good imo. But hey hes washed up, old, and lost it 10 years ago so what do you expect.

Of course Primeau is better right now, Joe's 6 years older. See if Primeau is as effective in the year 2010.

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Old
03-10-2004, 09:27 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MojoJojo
Second, the only reason Primeau is injured as much as he is is because he is a warrior who lays his body on the line night after night. Compare that to Joe, who plays a soft game, but is injured almost as much.
Weak. So if Joe is injured more it's because he's too old, if he's injured less then he's soft. Ask anyone who's seen him play in Dallas, Jersey, or Calgary. Joe is not a soft player.
Quote:
Third, Primeau's faceoff % is about 8% lower than Niewendykes (52% to 60%), a noticable, but not terribly significant difference. Since both might be in the circle a dozen times per night, thats the difference of about one extra faceoff won per game on average. That one faceoff might be important, but it more than likely will not significantly impact the game overall.
One extra faceoff win in every game of the year is a very significant number.
Quote:
Fourth, more fun with Statistics. Over the last four regular seasons here are their scoring totals.

________GP_G__A__TPS
Primeau 277 78 110 188
Nieuwie 281 85 107 192

Not the overwhelming difference people are claiming. Since Primeau is being used as a checking center this year while Joe gets to play second line center for a team that isnt known for its defensive play and more offensively gifted linemates, Joes numbers are higher this year.
I wonder why you went back 4 years? Could it be because that was the last time Primeau had a good season offensively? Wasn't that the year he was first line centre for Philly with Gagne? Pretty convenient use of stats. And for the record Joe's linemates are Ponikarovsky and the much maligned Nik Antropov. Not exactly offensive powerhouses there. He is 7th among Leaf's forwards in icetime so he's not exactly getting big minutes either.
Quote:
fifth. Anyone else remember how long it took to sign Niewendyke this summer? He was finally signed to a 2 mil$ contract, a deal, because no one else (including New Jersey) was willing to take a risk on his play or his health. He was repeatedly passed on by other teams, many if not most of whom could have easily found the extra room in the salary structure for a guy like him if he was still the player Toronto fans now think he is.
As was already said, many teams did not pass on him. He was waiting until the Toronto GM position was sorted out so he could sign with the Leafs. You are just making things up at this point.
Quote:
In case you havent guessed, my vote goes to Primeau. I recognize that Nieuwendyke is a great player, and that their roles are different though. So why compare the two anyway? Zhamnov is a much better comarison to Joe. Primeau is a better checking center than anyone on the leafs. I mean, who is there that fills his role? Antropov? Tucker? Reichel? In evaluating a head to head matchup, it seems to me that you should at least compare similar players. Its like trying to compare Scott Stevens with Gonchar.
I agree it's a very rough comparison. Primeau is no longer an offensive contributor to his team and Toronto doesnt make use of a "shutdown" centre preferring to go with balanced scoring lines instead.

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Old
03-10-2004, 09:31 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes
Sorry.. I guess when you said respectabe argument you meant a fantasy argument where stats have nothing do do with who is better and where the more objective and tangable "who looks better" type of discussion is king. By all means then continue on..
Stats! Give me a break. Let's go by stats then. St. Louis is tons better than Sundin. Gonchar blows away Pronger. Kiprosoff is a better goalie than Belfour...

C'mon man. Stats do make a statement, but you really do have to consider other variables. Maybe watch a game here and there.

IMO, Primeau has in fact looked tons better than Nieuwendyk this year. Add in the fact that over the last several years, the stats are close, and I really believe Primeau is better.

I'm not trying to be a ***** here, I just hate the stats arguement. Gaborik has next to nothing for points... He's obviously not as gifted as Stajan!!!

 
Old
03-10-2004, 09:38 PM
  #57
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Primeau is no longer an offensive player. Using his point totals is nearly useless in assesing his worth in comparison to an offense first player. Primeau has become an elite shut down center, IMO he should win the Selke. He made the All Star team because of that, not because of his 6 goals. Nieuwendyk has obviously had the far better career, but this season, Primeau's worth is much, much more than Nieuwendyk. If Nieuwendyk is out of the line up, the Leafs can continue to play at the same high level. Primeau's injury was enormous for the Flyers. Earlier in the year he missed 7 games, and the Flyers didn't win any of them. He comes back, and they win; it was more than a coincidence. In short, Keith Primeau is the most imporant player on the Flyers. Joe Nieuwendyk isn't the most important player on the Leafs.

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Old
03-10-2004, 09:41 PM
  #58
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I'd take Nieuwendyk without hesitation. Primeau has got to be one of the all time hacks in the playoffs, and his "leadership" has led the Flyers to exactly diddly squat when it counts. He's managed to blame how many goalies and coaches for the Flyers' losses in his tenure there? Following how many succesful seasons with the Whalercanes? And how did the Wings do in the playoffs in the years before and after they traded him?

Nieuwendyk has proven he can win. Primeau has proven he can lose. At this time of year, there's no question which proven player I'd rather have.

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Old
03-10-2004, 09:51 PM
  #59
shakes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
C'mon man. Stats do make a statement, but you really do have to consider other variables. Maybe watch a game here and there.

IMO, Primeau has in fact looked tons better than Nieuwendyk this year. Add in the fact that over the last several years, the stats are close, and I really believe Primeau is better.
Like I said continue on... . How about you let us know what "variables" you consider? Well considering he's looked tonnes better then that tears it.. Thats a definitive, objective variable if I ever saw one.

Now I don't mean to be an ass or anything either but if the crux of your argument with your buddy is "Primeau is better just 'cause" then no wonder he won't see the guiding light.

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Old
03-10-2004, 09:56 PM
  #60
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I agree shakes

I guess when it comes to a comparison like this, there is no definitive way to prove who's right. Joe has better stats, but I just like watching Primeau play the game.


I'm right, you're wrong... :dazzle:

 
Old
03-10-2004, 09:59 PM
  #61
shakes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Primeau is no longer an offensive player. Using his point totals is nearly useless in assesing his worth in comparison to an offense first player. Primeau has become an elite shut down center, IMO he should win the Selke. He made the All Star team because of that, not because of his 6 goals. Nieuwendyk has obviously had the far better career, but this season, Primeau's worth is much, much more than Nieuwendyk. If Nieuwendyk is out of the line up, the Leafs can continue to play at the same high level. Primeau's injury was enormous for the Flyers. Earlier in the year he missed 7 games, and the Flyers didn't win any of them. He comes back, and they win; it was more than a coincidence. In short, Keith Primeau is the most imporant player on the Flyers. Joe Nieuwendyk isn't the most important player on the Leafs.
Nice post.. the thread should be closed with this being the last word on the subject

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Old
03-11-2004, 09:48 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
Offensively: Joe Nieuwendyk
Defensively: Keith Primeau
Faceoffs: Joe Nieuwendyk
Leadership: Joe Nieuwendyk
Playoffs: Joe Nieuwendyk
Any1 that thinks Primeau is better... Argue this point.

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Old
03-11-2004, 10:58 PM
  #63
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I think the more appropreiate question would be Keith Primeau or Bobby Holik.

Nieuwendyk at one point was elite player who was an integral part of Stanely Cup Championship teams.........Primeau can't compare to that.

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Old
03-12-2004, 06:59 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
Nieuwendyk at one point was elite player who was an integral part of Stanely Cup Championship teams.........Primeau can't compare to that.
The discussion isn't who has had the better career, that's pretty obvious.

The question is, who is better right now.

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Old
03-12-2004, 07:55 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
Help me solve an arguement with some friends.

I'm of the opinion that Nieuwendyk is a slightly better offensive player. I think Primeau has skills, but plays a different role and his stats suffer because of it.

The question is though, who is the better all around player. I say Primeau without a doubt, but I want some impartial input.
I guess I'm impartial as anyone, since I hate the Leafs and Flyers. By choice by a long shot is Nieuwendyk. He brings better all around ability than Primeau. Quite frankly, I think Primeau is one of the most overrated players of the last 15 years.

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Old
03-12-2004, 10:01 AM
  #66
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I love how I don't know anything because I think at this stage of his career Joe Nieuwendyk is a nice spare part for the Leafs. Real objective comment there.

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Old
03-12-2004, 11:23 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
I love how I don't know anything because I think at this stage of his career Joe Nieuwendyk is a nice spare part for the Leafs. Real objective comment there.
A nice spare part is Joe Juneau, not a guy who is going to be in the top five in team scoring while missing significant time, and contributing in the leadership department. Have you seen how far Ponikarovsky has come playing with the spare part?

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Old
03-12-2004, 12:16 PM
  #68
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A spare part is someone who can be replaced quite easily. With the acquisition of Ronnie Franchise.. Nieuwy is even more replaceable than before.

Mats Sundin, Alexander Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Owen Nolan, Bryan Mccabe, Brian Leetch and Ed Belfour are essential for Leaf success.......... the others are all spare parts.

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Old
03-12-2004, 01:04 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highstickingyerface
A spare part is someone who can be replaced quite easily. With the acquisition of Ronnie Franchise.. Nieuwy is even more replaceable than before.

Mats Sundin, Alexander Mogilny, Gary Roberts, Owen Nolan, Bryan Mccabe, Brian Leetch and Ed Belfour are essential for Leaf success.......... the others are all spare parts.
Jeremy Roenick, Mark Recchi, Tony Amonte, Simon Gagne, Alex Zhamnov, Eric Desjardins, Danny Markov and Robert Esche are essential for Flyer succes....... the others are all spare parts.

Look at how people have mentioned the vast improvement of play from Ponikarovsky. At the beginning of the year he was wandering all over the ice and taking stupid penalties, Nieuwendyk has him putting up much better offensive numbers and he and Antropov have been excellent on the forecheck. Without Nieuwendyk those two look lost. That is not a 'replaceable' contribution.

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Old
03-12-2004, 01:05 PM
  #70
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I agree with someone who said that Primeau is the most over-rated player in the last 15 years. He may not be the most be he is up there. I can't even believe there is so much debate about it. If Nieuwendyk was healthy there is no question he is more gifted in every facet of the game. Sure Primeau can throw his body around and that has some value...but he is only better than his brother Wayne because everyone has given him so many chances because of all the hype that has surrounded him. Ok ok, he is better than his brother but not by a lot.

As for enjoying watching him play. The only time he is worth much on the ice is when he is throwing checks and i agree that can be fun to watch. But his skating and most of all his puckhandling has made me want to vomit on more than one occassion.

Even when he scores a "pretty" goal it almost looks like a mistake that he fell into.

He was the most frustrating player i have ever witnessed on the canes. Worse than Bates Battaglia, even (more frustrating than Bates, i mean).

If both were guaranteed to give you 60games, i take Joe in an instant. With his age and body, i still almost pick him over Primeau.


Last edited by AGraveOne: 03-12-2004 at 01:27 PM. Reason: mis-spelled Bates
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Old
03-12-2004, 01:11 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Joe
I guess I'm impartial as anyone, since I hate the Leafs and Flyers. By choice by a long shot is Nieuwendyk. He brings better all around ability than Primeau. Quite frankly, I think Primeau is one of the most overrated players of the last 15 years.
DumaS, if you hate them, you probably don'y watch them, right ! So how would you know.

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Old
03-12-2004, 01:39 PM
  #72
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I won't deny that Joe had positive impact on teh development of Ponikarovsky.

You lost credibility in my eyes by commenting that Danny Markov and Tony Amonte are more vital to the Flyers success than Keith Primeau.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:31 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16
DumaS, if you hate them, you probably don'y watch them, right ! So how would you know.
That's easily the dumbest thing I have ever read on these boards to try to question the credibility of an opinion. Stay in the shallow end junior, you'll drown in the deep end

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