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Bertuzzi Hearing Results and Suspension Talk-- ALL goes here.

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Old
03-10-2004, 03:52 PM
  #101
V for Voodoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
It's not that cut-and-dried because it's not certain Bertuzzi weighed the consequences of his actions before proceeding.
Which makes the Instigator inconsequential as well, no?
If Bertuzzi didn't have his head on straight enough to consider the consequences before hitting Steve Moore, he certainly wasnt worried about a 10 minute penalty.

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03-10-2004, 03:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Frenzy1

Noone cried for Karia when Stevens took him out.
My mom did. She loves Kariya.

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03-10-2004, 03:53 PM
  #103
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This is not semantics at all. You're just trying to ignore a very valid point I feel.

Pre-meditated means, to me, having planned out entirely. Saying you're going to do something is intention, not pre-meditation.

This is not semantics, this is a substantial difference in what words mean. Intention and pre-meditiation are NOT the same thing. Just like "hurt" and injure are not.

Bertuzzi intended on hurting Moore.

Bertuzzi did not pre-meditate injuring Moore.

So please don't say he did.

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Old
03-10-2004, 03:59 PM
  #104
Freudian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Snepts
And I think Crawford, while he obviously is not directly responsible for what Bertuzzi did, has something to answer for as well.
Since Canucks players challenged Moore pretty much every shift after the fight with Cooke, it is obvious that:

a) Crawford approved going after Moore

or

b) Crawford can't control his players

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:00 PM
  #105
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If I beat someone with a wiffle ball bat, I might get probation, if I do it with a real bat, I'll serve time. In the real world punishments are linked to results, they should be in the hockey world too.

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:01 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountie
Bertuzzi intended on hurting Moore.

Bertuzzi did not pre-meditate injuring Moore.
I really don't know where you are going with this.

Main Entry: 1in·tent
1 a : the act or fact of intending : PURPOSE; especially : the design or purpose to commit a wrongful or criminal act <admitted wounding him with intent> b : the state of mind with which an act is done



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountie
So please don't say he did.
Let me put it this way.
Bertuzzi intended to excert payback at Moore, but he did not intend to break his neck. That much, I agree with.
However, I'm afraid that doesn't matter in the real world.


Last edited by V for Voodoo: 03-10-2004 at 04:04 PM.
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Old
03-10-2004, 04:03 PM
  #107
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Announcement will be on Thursday, 9am EST/6am PST.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...74&hubName=nhl

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:07 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountie
This is not semantics at all. You're just trying to ignore a very valid point I feel.

Pre-meditated means, to me, having planned out entirely. Saying you're going to do something is intention, not pre-meditation.

This is not semantics, this is a substantial difference in what words mean. Intention and pre-meditiation are NOT the same thing. Just like "hurt" and injure are not.

Bertuzzi intended on hurting Moore.

Bertuzzi did not pre-meditate injuring Moore.

So please don't say he did.
What you are saying is correct, but can you explain the different consequences of these actions to me?

1) I intended on hurting Mr. X. When, by surprise, I saw him on the street, I punched him in the back of the head, and he fell down and broke his neck.

2) I had a plan to injure Mr. X. I hid in the bushes and waited for Mr. X to come along. When he came around the corner, I snuck up behind him and punched him in the back of the head, and he fell down and broke his neck.

Is there any difference?

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:09 PM
  #109
Harold Snepsts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountie
This is not semantics at all. You're just trying to ignore a very valid point I feel.

Pre-meditated means, to me, having planned out entirely. Saying you're going to do something is intention, not pre-meditation.

This is not semantics, this is a substantial difference in what words mean. Intention and pre-meditiation are NOT the same thing. Just like "hurt" and injure are not.

Bertuzzi intended on hurting Moore.

Bertuzzi did not pre-meditate injuring Moore.

So please don't say he did.
It is semantics, or at least shades of grey.

Bertuzzi DID INTEND to hurt Moore, just not that badly. Why else would he be skating behind him, trying to goad him into fighting? Because he wanted to beat his ass. Any time you set out to hurt someone, it follows that there's a reasonable chance you'll injure them.

The pre-meditation is that he clearly stalked Moore, looking to dole out retribution. I don't think anyone's claiming that Bertuzzi meant to break Moore's neck.

The thing is, whether he intended to or not, he did.

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:16 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Superfluous U
My mom did. She loves Kariya.
I just shot water out my nose reading that. Thank you for the laugh, man I needed that after the last couple of days.

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:23 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DarioinDenver
I just shot water out my nose reading that. Thank you for the laugh, man I needed that after the last couple of days.
I think everybody could use a laugh after the last couple of days.

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:35 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
He did not PILE drive him to the ice... or bull dog him, or anything like that... he fell on top of him.

Plain and simple.

Too say otherwise is head hunting...

A WITCH!!! A WITCH!!!
It's plainly obvious what happened. He punched Moore as hard as he could (without Moore having a chance to anticipate the blow), and forced him down to the ice. Moore would've fallen anyway, but Bertuzzi made sure of it by driving him down, face first, leading with his left arm.

He didn't just "fall on top of him."

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:40 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
I agree. While its a horrible thing he did, it's hardly on par with the McSorley slash IMO. This doesn't really differs himself from the punch Matt Johnson gave Blake, the thing Niedermayed pulled on Domi or the Hatcher hit on Roenick in 1999. He will get between 10 and 20 games, fair punishment.
Absolutely, this is the way I see it.

I do not think I'm being a homer in the least by saying it's not as bad as the McSorely incident. I was AT THAT GAME, and perhaps you folks have forgotten exactly what it was like. It was perhaps the ugliest display ever witnessed at a hockey game in terms of goon tactics.

Bertuzzi nailed a guy in the back of the head a-la Matt Johnson. Sorry if I don't think that's worthy of being suspended for his lifetime, as some have said would be 'fair punishment'.

And for those that say I am saying this because he's a Canuck - well, I was one of the FEW who said Marty McSorely ought not to be suspended for his lifetime too, when many folks thought he should have gotten a lifetime ban for his actions on this very board. Frankly, a lot of people who never played hockey, nevermind sports in general, seem to think that by banning a person from life will somehow stop goon tactics in the NHL. Well, sorry bud, IT WON'T .

Hell, Maurice Richard is regarded a hero by many hockey fans, yet he two-hand tomahawked a guy with his stick, then if that wasn't enough, he punched out a referee. So forgive me if I don't think Bertuzzi is somehow the worst offender in history of the NHL.

Absolutely Bertuzzi commited a goon-squad attack, and deserves to be punished for more than 10 games. Everyone knows that. But to say that by somehow making the suspension 20 games rather than 10, or a lifetime rather than 15 will somehow do anything else but hurt the Vancouver Canucks hockey team are out of their minds. Shanahan said it best on TSN yeserday (paraphrasing) - There will be a lot of people such as the Avs organization that will want to see Bertuzzi made an example of.. not because Bertuzzi deserves it, but because they will want to see the Vancouver Canucks hockey team suffer. I happen to agree with Shanny. Everyone knows a suspension is required here - a big one. But for people saying that Bertuzzi deserves 20 to life, that he's commited the worst goonery ever seen in hockey, etc.. etc.., I can only assume they either want the Canucks team to pay for Bertuzzi's actions, or that they are not at all cognizant of the precedents set by other similar attacks, such as Matt Johnson's attack years back.

15 games is a ton of games, and it's a ton of money.

All in all, Colin Campbell knows best. I wouldn't want to have his job though, as no matter what he says, the majority of hockey fans will think it's either too much, or (more probable) not enough.

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Old
03-10-2004, 04:43 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Daddy
Let me put it this way.
Bertuzzi intended to excert payback at Moore, but he did not intend to break his neck. That much, I agree with.
However, I'm afraid that doesn't matter in the real world.
Absolutely, Voodoo Daddy, couldn't have said it better myself. Bertuzzi must be suspended on what he did, not what he meant to do.

Besides, it's very easy to say, 'He didn't mean to injure him', after it happened. Nobody outside of maybe one or two guys in this league want to injure players. Fact is, it happens. Bertuzzi injured Moore, and absolutely the severity of the injury will play a factor too.

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Old
03-10-2004, 05:13 PM
  #115
Poignant Discussion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehc73
Announcement will be on Thursday, 9am EST/6am PST.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...74&hubName=nhl

Yup its 20+ games, most likely rest of this year or they would have annouced it right away. They delay things like this to have a nice little press conference and show everyone on TV that in fact they know what they are doing.

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Old
03-10-2004, 05:21 PM
  #116
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As someone who loves tough hockey with plenty of fights I found this to be appalling. Bertuzzi is a criminal as far as i'm concerned. He had 5 whole days to cool down after the previous game and was unable to do so. Had this happened at the exact time Naslund was injured I could see where it would not be a pre-meditated action but it was not.

I do not want Bertuzzi to represent Team Canada ever. This is not the kind of hockey I want representing my country. A one year suspension ought to teach the rest of the players in the league this kind of garbage cannot and will not be tolerated.

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Old
03-10-2004, 05:22 PM
  #117
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Bertuzzi should get a lengthy suspension. When Hatcher hit Roenick, he came out and said before the game he was going to get him, and in part, broke JR's face. This was the definition of premeditaion. How many games did Hatcher get, and should that suspension be a guideline for Bertuzzi's ???

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Old
03-10-2004, 05:27 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinfoilcup
As someone who loves tough hockey with plenty of fights I found this to be appalling. Bertuzzi is a criminal as far as i'm concerned. He had 5 whole days to cool down after the previous game and was unable to do so. Had this happened at the exact time Naslund was injured I could see where it would not be a pre-meditated action but it was not.

I do not want Bertuzzi to represent Team Canada ever. This is not the kind of hockey I want representing my country. A one year suspension ought to teach the rest of the players in the league this kind of garbage cannot and will not be tolerated.
Did you have a problem with the 1972 Summit Series then? Nobody seemed to care that Clarke broke a guy's leg with his stick, all that mattered was that Canada won.

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03-10-2004, 05:32 PM
  #119
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Bert deserves at least the rest of the season and play-offs. No one is commenting on the fact that he has said absolutely nothing so far, at least McSorley came right out and apologized to Brashear, the Bruins, Boston and the world right after the incident. Bertuzzi lacks a lot of class IMO, and I hope he gets a year.

Luke

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03-10-2004, 05:33 PM
  #120
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Those were different circumstances. Remember Russia was the "enemy" of the Cold War. Stupid mentality yes but it was like that back then all the same

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03-10-2004, 05:37 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superfluous U
My mom did. She loves Kariya.
I had tears on my eyes when he came back and scored that goal. The best goal in Mighty Ducks history (all 11 years of it). One of the best goals I've seen in person.

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03-10-2004, 05:40 PM
  #122
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Bertuzzi's suspention should be the rest of this year, INCLUDING ALL PLAYOFF games, as well as 10-15 at the start of next season..
The NHL should use this to gain a bit of credibility and set a presence that stuff like this will not be taken lightly, and what better way then to use one of the games "elite" as an example. Make other players thinnk if it could happen to him it could happen to them.

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Old
03-10-2004, 05:47 PM
  #123
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Meet me. I get straight A+'s, and am at the top of every class. Although, I do have a slight temper. My actions have gotten me suspended a couple of times, but, my emotions just got the best of me. Not my fault.

Anyway, one day my English teacher came up to me, and criticized my English essay, something that I had worked very hard on. Well, obviously, I was extremely mad at the teacher. After class, I followed her out of the class, demanding why she gave me this - in my opinion - unfair mark. When she wouldn't answer me, I got mad, and, well, once again, my emotions got the best of me. I sucker punched the teacher from behind, and then slammed her head into the cement floor. I tried to continue punching her, but other students and teachers quickly came in to stop me.

It turns out the teacher suffered a broken jaw, neck, and got a concussion. While I do feel mildly bad, I have to say, the teacher brought it upon herself. I mean, there's a code saying that you should *never* criticize the top students, because, well, they are the *real* future.

So, now everyone is accusing me of assault, attempt to murder, etc. Why don’t they understand that the teacher brought it upon herself, by criticizing a top student? Even if the criticism was fair, she shouldn’t embarrass a top student like that.

And, let me clear this up, it’s not like I wanted to injure the teacher. Sure, I punched her in the back of the head, when she wasn’t looking and when she wasn’t ready for the punch … but, ya know, my *intention* was to shake up the teacher a bit; let her know that she shouldn’t mess with the top students. Those were my intentions. But, my emotions got the better of me. Is that really my fault?


Last edited by rulin: 03-10-2004 at 05:51 PM.
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Old
03-10-2004, 05:54 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuiceHead
No one is commenting on the fact that he has said absolutely nothing so far, at least McSorley came right out and apologized to Brashear, the Bruins, Boston and the world right after the incident. Bertuzzi lacks a lot of class IMO, and I hope he gets a year.
Sometimes it's better to let things settle down a bit. It's been reported that Bertuzzi has made an attempt to contact Moore.

Personally, I don't feel that Bertuzzi owes me an apology.

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Old
03-10-2004, 05:57 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Absolutely, this is the way I see it.

I do not think I'm being a homer in the least by saying it's not as bad as the McSorely incident. I was AT THAT GAME, and perhaps you folks have forgotten exactly what it was like. It was perhaps the ugliest display ever witnessed at a hockey game in terms of goon tactics.

Bertuzzi nailed a guy in the back of the head a-la Matt Johnson. Sorry if I don't think that's worthy of being suspended for his lifetime, as some have said would be 'fair punishment'.
Proud Habber: I respect your example and what you're trying to say with it, but they same point has been made over and over again.

I wanted to focus on what Mizral was saying, though.

If you draw the line at the sucker-punch, it's not as bad as the McSorley "incident". However, many of us are of the opinion that Bertuzzi went on to try and drive Moore's face down through the ice, making him look like an ostrich.

He only succeeded in BREAKING HIS NECK.

If you look at the damage done (concussion + broken neck + whatelse), and that he tried to push a man's head through the ice, I'd say McSorley doesn't come close. See the replays over and over again. It gets scarier every time.

As for the Shanahan comment - that is total BS.

I'd never go after the Canucks organization. But I want Bertuzzi out of this. He's an animal, it was premeditated, and he deserves to be put away for at least a year (in both a cell and from the ice).

If it hurts the Canucks? Bohoo for them, I say. Keep control of the dude next time, this isn't the first time he's been in a mess. He is to be punished, and I don't care if it hurts the Canucks. I don't care at all! It is a personal crime and a personal punishment, and if others get hurt, let the blame fall on him for doing this crap from the start. I don't want a long penalty because it would hurt the Canucks! I want a long penalty to hurt Bertuzzi for what he did to Moore.

I'm certain most Avs fan feel the same way. This was the lamest thing I've heard, both from Shanny and yourself. Sorry to say it, but it doesn't come close to a little thing I'd like to call *reality*.

Best regards
Martin

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