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Old
03-13-2004, 02:45 PM
  #101
Vincent Vega
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dats-13
Holland gets a 10/10 for me...

don't give me the "you have the highest payroll" blahblahblah argument

he's a genius, he stole Lang, got the better end of the Schneider deal, got Hatcher and Whitney for nothing, and this past deadline he didn't throw away our future for a player that'll see 5-7 minutes a night......

he also scouts players well, and has a huge say in who gets picked...

only thing that I don't like that he's done is getting in the bidding war for deveraux, but he could've been great...
I'd give Kenny an 8/10 or so. Getting Lang, Schneider, Hatcher, Whitney, Thomas, and all the awesome drafting. He does have alot of room to make moves though, plus he signed Uwe Krupp and Boyd Deveraux :mad:

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Old
03-13-2004, 03:19 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHurricane16
The guys at EA Canada are Canuck fans, and you know how Canucks fans over-rate everyone.

Just joking :p
Ohlund being an 84 and Cloutier being a 90 really shocked me. Ohlund was a force last year and only an 84. All the goalies in the game were overrated.

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Old
03-13-2004, 04:35 PM
  #103
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ill give Pully and Talon a 4
for now......................




decent deals so far(4th for krapot, amazing)
lets see how next year looks

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Old
03-13-2004, 04:41 PM
  #104
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Calgary Flames - Darryl Sutter

A+ or 10/10

All this guy has done is come in here and brought respectibility and a winning attitude back to the city and to the franchise. Awesome pick-ups in Donovan, Kiprusoff, Nilson, Niemenen and Simon. Excellent first draft last summer adding guys like Phaneuf, Ramholt and Tardiff. He's brought a system and given the franchise and the team direction. Not sure if he's made a questionable move or acquisition yet. And, I give him credit for trying to get rid of Turek, albeit no one wants him.

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Old
03-13-2004, 04:57 PM
  #105
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In my eyes, Lacroix is a 10 if anyone is.

-Brought in Patrick Roy after the Detroit game - Roy won two cups and one Conn Smythe.

-Great draft record, bringing in Alex Tanguay, Milan Hejduk and John-Michael Liles (to mention a few), many being gems in the later rounds.

-Adding Rob Blake, Ray Bourque

-Acquiring Konowalchuk

- He almost always gives good value when he trades, but mostly manages to win them. I'm certain that I'll be able to say the same about the addition of Ossi Vaananen.

- Signing Roy, Blake and Sakic to new contracts.

- Never signing UFA's (with the exception of Kariya and Selanne), but getting his players through trades.

- 9 division titles, and another one coming.

- Working within a budget (as opposed to GM's like Holland and Sather), one of the league's top ten spenders, but not close to Detroit.

- Not afraid to mix it up when he feels it is needed.

- Dealing Skoula (need I say more )

- Good at evaluating his team's weaknesses, and adressing them.

- Great history of picking his coaches (Marc Crawford, assistants Joel Quenneville and Jacques Martin!), Bob Hartley and Tony Granato (even though the support for Granato isn't high after our losing streak).

- 1996 Executive of they year by The Hockey News.

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Old
03-13-2004, 05:57 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinkrantz

- Dealing Skoula (need I say more )
As much as Colorado fan's hate Skoula, Ducks fans hate Sauer. Skoula's trade value used to be much higher, so Lacroix shouldn't be praised for picking up a limited player in Sauer when he could have gotten more for him a year ago.

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Old
03-13-2004, 06:10 PM
  #107
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Brian Burke

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5
On a scale from 1 to 10, how has your GM performed in his tenure. Not just this trade deadline but overall.

1=he's fired and I hope he never works again
5=I'll renew his contract but he only has one more year to prove himself
10=Contract extension for as long as he wants to be a GM


Brian Burke=10
In my opinion B.B. is the best G.M in the league by far.The players respect him, and want to win for him, and he gets the most bang for his buck.And if McCaw doesn't resign him they are asking for turmoil and problems for sure.

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Old
03-14-2004, 01:23 PM
  #108
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Darcy Regeir: -8
Wait's far to long to pull the trigger.

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Old
03-14-2004, 02:21 PM
  #109
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O'Connel: I give him a 9, for adressing needs at center and defence.

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Old
03-14-2004, 02:23 PM
  #110
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Mike Milbury - 2.5


king of the small trades [hunter,aucoin]
horrible on draft day....i always cringe on the day itself
all said & done .......Time for a new GM

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Old
03-14-2004, 03:19 PM
  #111
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Mike Barnett certainly has improved his team for the long-term after a shaky start as GM.

Deals at the deadline were largely positive.

1) Sillinger for Johnson. Johnson has already sparked talk of trading Brian Boucher and his relatively large contract (see shaky start as GM) and inconsistent play. His huge size and butterfly style is more in sync with goaltending coach Benoit Allaire than Boucher's style of game that has not translated as well at times in Phoenix's system. Johnson is also much more adept at handling the puck and with the group of puck rushing blueliners that Phoenix has acquired in recent years, he may fit into the system better.

Sillinger was a warm body acquired in a deal forced by Teppo Numminen and his agent that was sparked by Phoenix's reluctance to pay him his $4.5 million dollar option year on his contract (Phoenix was prepared to let him walk as a UFA this summer). In recent weeks Sillinger started to deliver some of the offense we were expecting and is great on faceoffs. Regardless though, he's too expensive of a 3rd line center (4th line in Phoenix) for this franchise and was not going to be re-signed in the off-season.

2) Savage for nothing. Contract was a huge mistake. Getting St. Louis to pick up a portion (even if is just a couple of hundred thousand) is money saved. Savage won't be back in Phoenix as Phoenix will likely have to buy the rest of the contract out. This was a lesson to Phoenix to stick to the long-term plan and not try to take short cuts (Amonte) again.

3) Hrdina for a 2nd and Mike Rupp. Given the acquisition of Mike Comrie and emergence of Nagy, Phoenix was long on small/soft players. Hrdina wasn't any higher than a third line center on the depth chart with plenty of youngsters waiting and willing to take his roster spot. Contract was a bit much and the acquisition of a big strong winger with upside like Mike Rupp better fits the team as a whole. The second round pick gives Dave Draper something to play with. It should be noted that while the 2002 draft is viewed as one of the poorest on record, Phoenix looks as though they will have a number of players from that draft class who will be part of the future of the franchise (Koreis, LeNeveu, Callahan, Jones). Draper seems to be able to find gems in poor drafts.

4) Morris and Ballard for Gratton, Vaananen, and a 2nd in 05. Gratton is apparently garbage (although most Phoenix fans seem to be ignored when the claim that he has been one of their best players since January) and worth nothing in terms of trade value. Vaananen had 6 freaking points and top end potential is that of a number 3 guy; however, he did not make much in terms of progress this season. In fact, he regressed in the eyes of many. Morris offers Phoenix a puck moving defenseman who can get the puck out of the zone without having to resort to using the glass while leading the powerplay. He will log huge minutes and immediately steps in as the number one defensemen on the team for now and for the next couple of years. Ballard is a very highly touted prospect who's upside may surpass that of Vaananen. He gives Phoenix options to use him as trade bait in terms of moving up in the draft in June or to ice a lineup that includes 4 defensemen who are capable of moving the puck in Mara, Tanabe, Morris, and Ballard. Phoenix loses on physicality in the deal but their prospect cupboard has assets in Callahan, Jones, and Spiller who will bring an asset base more capable of filling the role once occupied by Vaananen in the depth chart. A move that improves the team now and in the future.

5) Comre for Burke, Radivojevic, and Eager. Burke again is apparently worthless. Radivojevic is a very good third line player who might one day be a 20 goal, 20 assist guy. Eager IMO was included for the draft pick and has a good chance of re-entering the draft this year. Comrie will likely center the first line for years to come. A move for now and the future for Phoenix.

Phoenix acquired a number one center, a number one d man, a number one prospect (actually number 2 behind David LeNeveu). That's a pretty good year for Barnett and makes up for some of his deals from past years.

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Old
03-14-2004, 03:59 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbk
Phoenix acquired a number one center, a number one d man, a number one prospect (actually number 2 behind David LeNeveu). That's a pretty good year for Barnett and makes up for some of his deals from past years.
Sounds about right. I read somewhere on the internet a reporter giving Barnett a B or maybe it was slightly better for his trades this season.

 
Old
03-18-2004, 02:05 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichPanther
He dumped the injury-prone and "all-world skills" of Kolzov for a pretty decent 23 yr old player who many have said is "Nilson with better hands".
Are you sure it was many people who said that? Are you sure it wasn't...no one?

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Old
03-18-2004, 10:37 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFan68
I'd give Craig Patrick about a 7. While most Pens fans hate him, I don't. While some of the deals haven't turned out like we would've all hoped, he still has been able to make some solid deals. He's also taken "rejects" from other teams and given them a chance, and most have played higher than expectations.

I do wish that we could've gotten a top prospect back for Kovy(or even an above average one), but other than that I'm fairly pleased with the job he's done.
It's my belief that the reason Craig Patrick has failed in the past few years is because the Penguins are in such a bad financial position. If the Penguins had the amount of money that the Avs, Wings, or Leaves had, the Penguins would be the best team if he built it. He built two Stanley Cup winning teams on about $9 million, which at the time was not even close to the top of the league in salary.

I give Patrick a solid 8.

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Old
03-19-2004, 09:55 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue


Why am I not surprised to see this "analysis" from this poster?

Would you care to explain your reasoning for this, or is that too much trouble for you?

I'd give Pleau a 6 at least, and here's why... it's true, the Blues had some issues at the start of the year, and it's true, Pleau did not move as quickly as you and the rest of the malcontents would have liked in order to address those issues.

But address them he did... Weinrich (a top-4 d-man to take up some of the slack left by the absence of Macinnis and Jackman), Sillinger (a good faceoff man for a team that really needed one), and Savage (a goal scorer for Doug Weight's line, at a low cost in terms of salary and what was given up for him).

The cost for all of this? A fifth-round pick and "future considerations."

Not a singler roster player lost, and three brought back, in positions where they were very much needed.

Sillinger's acquisition has allowed Cajanek to move to the top line, where he's doing quite nicely centering Demitra and Tkachuk. Savage looks like he will fit in nicely with Weight and Drake, for a good second line. Sillinger between Mellanby and Rycroft (another Pleau free-agent find) is a good third line, and there are plenty of grinders to work with Mike Danton on the fourth line.

Pleau absolutely stole Danton from Jersey, and he's played well for the Blues, much better in the Tyson Nash role than Nash ever was. And as a little added bonus, the Blues even got their best scoring prospect (the draft pick that was used for Konstantin Zakhariov) in that same deal.

Pleau got value for Brent Johnson, when you and every other malcontent in St. Louis asserted that Johnson had no value whatsoever.

Pleau made a mistake with Peter Sejna... but to his credit, he admitted the mistake and sent Sejna to Worcester where he should have been all along, to develop. And he has developed.

Pleau ain't perfect.. far from it. But he's nowhere near the brain-dead ignoramus that you and the other malcontents in St. Louis try to paint him as.

PrussianBlue

You call Sillinger, Weinrich, and Savage addressing this team's needs?

That calls for another

Weinrich might be an improvement over the slugs that we have, in the absence of JAckman and Macinnis but that's not saying much is it? He looks like a Norris Winner
because of the other **** that we have to throw out there. Good acquisition for a team that stands a decent chance of making noise in the playoffs, but a crappy move for a team like the Blues who'll be bounced in the 1st round even if they make it at all. A 5th round pick for a 2-month rental. He won't be back next season.

Savage? Probably the WORST scorer available. Yeah he cost nothing but there's a reason for that. He scores most of his goals in a few games and the rest of the time is invisible. So far he has 1 goal in 5 games, not exactly making much of a difference. No credit at all to Pleau in this deal, if he wanted to pick up a scorer should have spent a little more and gotten Kovalev or Carter or Bondra. Much better players who were traded for little more than mid-level prospects and one draft pick.

Sillinger is the only deal of the 3 that made any sense. And that's only because Johnson had no future with the BLues and we didn't have anyone who could win a faceoff. Which is also Pleau's fault...

So yeah, no credit to Pleau for deals that were TOO LITTLE TOO LATE to correct the many flaws on this team. He should have made these deals months ago...He waits until the sore is infected and then slaps a wet band-aid on it. He would have been better off to sell by trading Weight Demitra and Pronger. But bumpkins like you are too narrow-minded to have any grasp of the big picture. As long as we play 1 game in the playoffs it makes you happy.

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Old
03-19-2004, 10:03 AM
  #116
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I'd give Ken Holland a 6 out of 10. He makes some good moves, but has made some boneheaded moves too.

He tends to overpay for free agents, his and other teams.

Darren McCarty is not worth 2.25 million Ken Holland gave him. Boyd Devereaux is way overpaid. 1.8 million, come on Kenny. Sure he was a former top 10 pick, but at the time no one was bidding on his services because of his concussion problems. I think he overpaid for Ray Whitney also. Ray is a good skilled forward, but not worth the 3 million plus he is earning. Chris Chelios is a warrior. But is he worth just under 6 million a year? I just dont think so.

Ken is gonna have to learn to manage the teams money alot better when a new payroll system comes into the NHL.

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Old
03-19-2004, 10:12 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
I'd give Ken Holland a 6 out of 10. He makes some good moves, but has made some boneheaded moves too.

He tends to overpay for free agents, his and other teams.

Darren McCarty is not worth 2.25 million Ken Holland gave him. Boyd Devereaux is way overpaid. 1.8 million, come on Kenny. Sure he was a former top 10 pick, but at the time no one was bidding on his services because of his concussion problems. I think he overpaid for Ray Whitney also. Ray is a good skilled forward, but not worth the 3 million plus he is earning. Chris Chelios is a warrior. But is he worth just under 6 million a year? I just dont think so.

Ken is gonna have to learn to manage the teams money alot better when a new payroll system comes into the NHL.
devs is only gettin 1.6 still way too much and as far as chelios can't remember how long ago he signed or re-signed, but back then he might have actually been worth the money, i don't think we can criticize about the money situation as of yet, after all, a couple years back ... hell even last year, no one knew what the cba situation was gonna look like

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Old
03-19-2004, 10:28 AM
  #118
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Bob Gainey - 8.5/10

So far if you were to make a movie about Gainey short stint to date in Montreal it would 'All the Right moves'

Gainey seems to know what it takes to suceed in Montreal and knows what steps are needed to get there.
-His first move of significance was to silence the fans as far as the Brisebois thing goes. He knew this was a distraction that needed to be put to an end and did it in perfect fashion. Very few people could insult a group of their fans and get away with it as well as Gainey did. Gainey handling on the situation was perfect.

-His buying out of Audette was another good move. The other buyouts the habs did were pretty obvious ones (Mckay and Chow), but Audette's was a little more difficult (more money to buy out etc). Gainey decided Audette's situation on the team was a distraction and got rid of it. Good move period.

-Picking up Begin and Langdon off waivers. This move really changed the idenity of the team, although many didn't see it right off the bat. Gainey saw a lack of true grit/warrior/good lockroom type players on this team and solved the problem with maybe his most underrated moves at the time they were made, but their isn't a habs fan around who doesn't love these moves now.

-His stating that this team is expected to make the playoffs. In alot of ways this little blurb to the press didn't seem like much, but it was Gainey's way of telling the players what the expectations on them were. There was to be no excuses as far as not making the playoffs went. He let the players know that NOT making the playoffs was not going to be an acceptable finish, and on a team and in a city that wasn't expecting alot going into the year, this was imo, a very nessesary move by Gainey.

-Acquiring Kovalev from the rags. A bit of a gamble because he gave up a decent propect for what could amount to be a rental, but a good gamble in my opinion. Gainey dealt from a position of strength (the habs are widely consider to have the best stable of prospects out there, especially when you are consideing skilled forwards) to strenthen a weak area (top 2 line wingers). The move brought a new sense of pride to hab fans knowing that management is serious about winning now. Gainey also let it be known that this was one isolated move and that the long term plan wasn't going to be put in jeapordy, to calm the fans who though we might start selling off our prospects for short term gain. This move could possibly come back to look bad for the habs in certain things happen, but hindsight is something a GM doesn't have when making deals.

-Acquiring Dowd. Again Gainey filled a need and this time didn't give up much to do it. With this addition and the Begin addition, Gainey has shown an ability to nab undervalued players from other teams.

For a one year mark, Gainey could deserve a perfect score, but in away must lose a point or two strictly based on the fact that he has only been here for less than a year, so.......

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Old
03-19-2004, 05:38 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H.M.D.

You call Sillinger, Weinrich, and Savage addressing this team's needs?

That calls for another
Wow.

I'm speechless in the face of such devastating wit and tremendous command of the English language. You and your smilies sure showed me...


Quote:
Originally Posted by H.M.D.
Weinrich might be an improvement over the slugs that we have, in the absence of JAckman and Macinnis but that's not saying much is it? He looks like a Norris Winner
because of the other **** that we have to throw out there. Good acquisition for a team that stands a decent chance of making noise in the playoffs, but a crappy move for a team like the Blues who'll be bounced in the 1st round even if they make it at all. A 5th round pick for a 2-month rental. He won't be back next season.
I'm sure you won't mind if I archive this, right?

What kind of "facts" are you presenting as evidence here? I don't see anything but rhetoric and opinion... "slugs 'we' have," "the other *** that 'we' have to throw out there," "the Blues (will) be bounced in the first round."

You've proven exactly zip with this paragraph, son... and none of the ones that follow are any different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by H.M.D.
Savage? Probably the WORST scorer available. Yeah he cost nothing but there's a reason for that. He scores most of his goals in a few games and the rest of the time is invisible. So far he has 1 goal in 5 games, not exactly making much of a difference. No credit at all to Pleau in this deal, if he wanted to pick up a scorer should have spent a little more and gotten Kovalev or Carter or Bondra. Much better players who were traded for little more than mid-level prospects and one draft pick.
As usual, you jump to the conclusion that, because Team "X" acquired Player "Y" for Asset "Z," the Blues "could have gotten" Player "Y" for an asset that you think is "comparable."

What "little more" should Pleau have spent to get Kovalev or Carter or Bondra, and what reason do we have to think that, had he done so, you wouldn't have found some reason to complain about the acquisition of those players? "Too old" or "too expensive" or "gave up too much" or some other gripe. You've established this MO time and time again on other boards.

It's the same-old, same-old line with you...

And as for the "much better players" who were traded for mid-level prospects and/or draft picks... maybe there were "better" players who were moved. But I've made the point elsewhere, and I'll make it here that it's highly unlikely that Pleau could have acquired a "better" player than Savage who also came with an option to return him from whence he came if that player didn't work out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by H.M.D.
Sillinger is the only deal of the 3 that made any sense. And that's only because Johnson had no future with the BLues and we didn't have anyone who could win a faceoff. Which is also Pleau's fault...
Oh, nonsense. How is it "Pleau's fault" if the players on the ice aren't performing to your liking? "No one who could win a faceoff" is an exaggeration, typical of you and those of your ilk on Blues' boards, where all you can do is spout the same anti-Blues, anti-management agenda over and over until everyone is sick of it...


Quote:
Originally Posted by H.M.D.
So yeah, no credit to Pleau for deals that were TOO LITTLE TOO LATE to correct the many flaws on this team. He should have made these deals months ago...He waits until the sore is infected and then slaps a wet band-aid on it. He would have been better off to sell by trading Weight Demitra and Pronger. But bumpkins like you are too narrow-minded to have any grasp of the big picture. As long as we play 1 game in the playoffs it makes you happy.

"Bumpkin," eh?

"Narrow-minded," eh?

Nice unprovoked insults. Of course, you don't have the stones to do that on the Blues' board, where I can ban you. So I'll let the mods of this board decide if there was any call for that.

Since you've got no point, and have proven absolutely nothing, other than the parrot-like stock repetition of "I hate Larry Pleau, and nothing he does will ever be good enough for me," I suggest you run along now. Or maybe you can insult me again, since you can't debate with me.

PrussianBlue

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Old
03-19-2004, 06:22 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue
As usual, you jump to the conclusion that, because Team "X" acquired Player "Y" for Asset "Z," the Blues "could have gotten" Player "Y" for an asset that you think is "comparable."

What "little more" should Pleau have spent to get Kovalev or Carter or Bondra, and what reason do we have to think that, had he done so, you wouldn't have found some reason to complain about the acquisition of those players? "Too old" or "too expensive" or "gave up too much" or some other gripe. You've established this MO time and time again on other boards.

It's the same-old, same-old line with you...

And as for the "much better players" who were traded for mid-level prospects and/or draft picks... maybe there were "better" players who were moved. But I've made the point elsewhere, and I'll make it here that it's highly unlikely that Pleau could have acquired a "better" player than Savage who also came with an option to return him from whence he came if that player didn't work out.

Oh, nonsense. How is it "Pleau's fault" if the players on the ice aren't performing to your liking? "No one who could win a faceoff" is an exaggeration, typical of you and those of your ilk on Blues' boards, where all you can do is spout the same anti-Blues, anti-management agenda over and over until everyone is sick of it...

"Bumpkin," eh?

"Narrow-minded," eh?

Nice unprovoked insults. Of course, you don't have the stones to do that on the Blues' board, where I can ban you. So I'll let the mods of this board decide if there was any call for that.

Since you've got no point, and have proven absolutely nothing, other than the parrot-like stock repetition of "I hate Larry Pleau, and nothing he does will ever be good enough for me," I suggest you run along now. Or maybe you can insult me again, since you can't debate with me.

PrussianBlue
Wow, PB. I knew it was just a matter of time before you'd snap . . .

If I may put in my own two cents on the situation, I'll take the middle ground.

While Pleau made a couple of acquisitions over the season, most of them were low-risk/low-reward deals (with the exception of Wienrich who I think has proven to be worth far more than the 5th round pick, though Lap's would disagree). Pleau's pick-ups of Savage and Ryan Ready on the deadline day just seemed to be "going through the motions" and making a trade simply for the sake of making a trade. And while I know you hate the comparisons of what one team got a player for, the Geoff Sanderson for a third round pick certainly stinks of "Where was Pleau?".

I think that Sanderson would have been the answer far more than Savage is. While Sanderson is in the second year of a $9M three year (correct me if I'm wrong C-Bus fans), his scoring talent alone should have made him an easy thought. I'm sure that Doug MacLean let other GM's know that Sanderson was available and that Burke was not the only one privy to that information. Put him on a line with Weight, and I'd be willing to bet the farm that they'd spark each other; Sanderson needs a solid set-up man and Weight needs a bona-fide scorer. And all-in-all, I don't think that $3M a season is completely out of this world for a 2nd line winger in the current market (though Weight's salary is "a little" high for a 2nd line center :p).

The Sillinger-BJ trade was one that was a win-win for both teams involved. Both teams were trying to get "something" for the respective players, and both have done more than was expected of them from their previous teams/fan base.

Unfortunately, Pleau had his share of bad moves, and not all of them involved players. The Quenneville firing still stings, although the hiring of Kitchen and giving him contract pretty much "sight unseen" was confusing; I can understand the need to instill confidence in your new coach, but this?

I'd give him a middle-of-the-road 5. Not absolute suckitude, but could've done better.

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Old
03-19-2004, 07:09 PM
  #121
H.M.D.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
Wow, PB. I knew it was just a matter of time before you'd snap . . .

If I may put in my own two cents on the situation, I'll take the middle ground.

While Pleau made a couple of acquisitions over the season, most of them were low-risk/low-reward deals (with the exception of Wienrich who I think has proven to be worth far more than the 5th round pick, though Lap's would disagree). Pleau's pick-ups of Savage and Ryan Ready on the deadline day just seemed to be "going through the motions" and making a trade simply for the sake of making a trade. And while I know you hate the comparisons of what one team got a player for, the Geoff Sanderson for a third round pick certainly stinks of "Where was Pleau?".

I think that Sanderson would have been the answer far more than Savage is. While Sanderson is in the second year of a $9M three year (correct me if I'm wrong C-Bus fans), his scoring talent alone should have made him an easy thought. I'm sure that Doug MacLean let other GM's know that Sanderson was available and that Burke was not the only one privy to that information. Put him on a line with Weight, and I'd be willing to bet the farm that they'd spark each other; Sanderson needs a solid set-up man and Weight needs a bona-fide scorer. And all-in-all, I don't think that $3M a season is completely out of this world for a 2nd line winger in the current market (though Weight's salary is "a little" high for a 2nd line center :p).

The Sillinger-BJ trade was one that was a win-win for both teams involved. Both teams were trying to get "something" for the respective players, and both have done more than was expected of them from their previous teams/fan base.

Unfortunately, Pleau had his share of bad moves, and not all of them involved players. The Quenneville firing still stings, although the hiring of Kitchen and giving him contract pretty much "sight unseen" was confusing; I can understand the need to instill confidence in your new coach, but this?

I'd give him a middle-of-the-road 5. Not absolute suckitude, but could've done better.
Indeed. Both Sanderson and Rucinsky would have been better options than Savage. Pleau wanted to get something decent for nothing, just like last year's deadline, and once again came up empty.

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03-19-2004, 07:10 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue
Wow.

I'm speechless in the face of such devastating wit and tremendous command of the English language. You and your smilies sure showed me...




I'm sure you won't mind if I archive this, right?

What kind of "facts" are you presenting as evidence here? I don't see anything but rhetoric and opinion... "slugs 'we' have," "the other *** that 'we' have to throw out there," "the Blues (will) be bounced in the first round."

You've proven exactly zip with this paragraph, son... and none of the ones that follow are any different.




As usual, you jump to the conclusion that, because Team "X" acquired Player "Y" for Asset "Z," the Blues "could have gotten" Player "Y" for an asset that you think is "comparable."

What "little more" should Pleau have spent to get Kovalev or Carter or Bondra, and what reason do we have to think that, had he done so, you wouldn't have found some reason to complain about the acquisition of those players? "Too old" or "too expensive" or "gave up too much" or some other gripe. You've established this MO time and time again on other boards.

It's the same-old, same-old line with you...

And as for the "much better players" who were traded for mid-level prospects and/or draft picks... maybe there were "better" players who were moved. But I've made the point elsewhere, and I'll make it here that it's highly unlikely that Pleau could have acquired a "better" player than Savage who also came with an option to return him from whence he came if that player didn't work out.




Oh, nonsense. How is it "Pleau's fault" if the players on the ice aren't performing to your liking? "No one who could win a faceoff" is an exaggeration, typical of you and those of your ilk on Blues' boards, where all you can do is spout the same anti-Blues, anti-management agenda over and over until everyone is sick of it...





"Bumpkin," eh?

"Narrow-minded," eh?

Nice unprovoked insults. Of course, you don't have the stones to do that on the Blues' board, where I can ban you. So I'll let the mods of this board decide if there was any call for that.

Since you've got no point, and have proven absolutely nothing, other than the parrot-like stock repetition of "I hate Larry Pleau, and nothing he does will ever be good enough for me," I suggest you run along now. Or maybe you can insult me again, since you can't debate with me.

PrussianBlue
Aw, bruised your ego with "bumpkin" did I? Well maybe I don't like being referred to as a "malcontent" either...So we're even.

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03-19-2004, 08:30 PM
  #123
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Pleau get's a 5.

-He decidedly won all of his trades(BJ is winless since his move to Pheonix, I don't buy the "BJ is pushing Boucher out of town" rumors for one second).

-He upgraded the team in all area's(even in goal by dropping Johnson).

-He gave the team the kick they needed to get out of their losing streak(by firing Quenneville(that was a good move, Q had lost the team, he was ineffective and that was a MAJOR reason for the losing streak)).

The only thing that Pleau DIDN'T do was get a "game breaker" like Satan or O'Niell to appease the fans.

On their own the moves that Pleau made were solid to good moves. But the question remains "Did Pleau improve the team enough to be a real contender". Until the PO's are over that question can't be answered, therefore, he gets a 5. After the PO's that grade will drastically swing in one direction or the other(he'll either be fired or will be hailed as the best GM in Blues history(and HMD will be leading the parade down Market Street screaming about how good Pleau is).

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03-19-2004, 09:33 PM
  #124
maximil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsjohn
For his tenure I'd give Dave Taylor 9.25. He inherited a horrrible Kings team with no prospect pool and no farm system.
The Kings now have one of the better prospect pools, the Monarchs have provided player after player to step in and contribute through all of these injuries.
If the Kings were healthy they would be a force in the West

Dave Taylor has been great. Here are some of the reasons I can think of off the top of my head...

Palffy trade
Excellent return on the Blake deal
Good return for Schneider
Solid drafting of amateurs
Solid drafting of skilled older europeans who can contribute immediately
Gleason for Smolinski last season
Bringing in a number of solid support players for almost nothing ex/ Armstrong

Here are some things that haven't worked out well...

Rassmussen for Mair
Inability to aquire or develop a number one goalie
Deadline deals to improve the team for the playoffs (the jury is still out on Carter)

Edit: Forgot my rating: 8.7 (not cup yet)

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03-20-2004, 08:31 AM
  #125
Prussian_Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
Wow, PB. I knew it was just a matter of time before you'd snap . . .
You call that "snapping?"

H.M.D., in his "other" incarnations, is a follower and a troublemaker. He tries to play it coy over here -- after having been banned and having multiple posts erased at the Blues' board for personal attacks and insults.

I'd be more than happy to point anyone who cares in the direction of the Blues' forum at STLToday.com, where H.M.D. posts often under the name "B_t_KAG," which is a "clever" acronym for "Ban_the_KoolAidGuzzlers," said "KoolAidGuzzlers" being anyone who does not fill every post with anti-Pleau vitriol.

I don't think it's unjustified to cite his actions elsewhere as evidence against him here, and there were unprovoked attacks made on me in his response. I've seen other moderators have an absolute cow over having a "joker" smiley directed at them, and seen bans go into effect for a lot less than being called a "narrow-minded bumpkin."

I'd really like to see these other moderators stand by and be called "bumpkins" and "narrow-minded," even on boards that they don't moderate, without filing formal protests and having the other moderators all rally to their defense.

H.M.D. made what he apparently thinks are "good points," and most of those were (as I pointed out) mere rhetoric. He doesn't want to present any kind of quantifiable evidence to support his anti-Pleau platform; he just trots out the same old lines about "slugs" and "can't win faceoffs" and thinks those are "facts" to support his conclusion that Pleau is the worst GM in the NHL.

He'll have to do better than that. He's supposedly a fellow at some prestigious college, a big-time seismology researcher. He ought to have the scholarly wherewithal to be able to present a real fact-based case to support his arguments, wouldn't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
If I may put in my own two cents on the situation, I'll take the middle ground.
Y'know, it's strange... I thought that's what I was doing by giving Pleau a "6," and by acknowledging that Pleau had made moves and non-moves that I didn't agree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
While Pleau made a couple of acquisitions over the season, most of them were low-risk/low-reward deals (with the exception of Wienrich who I think has proven to be worth far more than the 5th round pick, though Lap's would disagree). Pleau's pick-ups of Savage and Ryan Ready on the deadline day just seemed to be "going through the motions" and making a trade simply for the sake of making a trade.
First, the highlighted portion is, in my view, the issue that crops up in 99% of the posts that aren't positive towards Pleau. He doesn't make big, splashy, "sexy" moves a la Pierre Lacroix, so people tend to dismiss his trades or signings.

Justin Papineau for Chris Osgood was one of those moves, last year's big trade-deadline move, in fact. That's worked out fairly well for the Blues, I think.

Ditto with Dave Morisset for Scott Mellanby.

There's not a darn thing wring with "low risk," and "low reward" is relative and not always immediately apparent.

What makes those moves seem like "making a trade simply for the sake of making a trade?"

I'll get to the Savage deal in a minute, but the Ready deal was a depth move, a move designed to bring in a replacement for Nickulas, whose release was a mistake that I attribute to Pleau. Ready's a younger player of similar size and style, and could be as useful a role player as Nickulas was. I still don't get why he was just sent packing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
And while I know you hate the comparisons of what one team got a player for, the Geoff Sanderson for a third round pick certainly stinks of "Where was Pleau?".

I think that Sanderson would have been the answer far more than Savage is. While Sanderson is in the second year of a $9M three year (correct me if I'm wrong C-Bus fans), his scoring talent alone should have made him an easy thought. I'm sure that Doug MacLean let other GM's know that Sanderson was available and that Burke was not the only one privy to that information. Put him on a line with Weight, and I'd be willing to bet the farm that they'd spark each other; Sanderson needs a solid set-up man and Weight needs a bona-fide scorer. And all-in-all, I don't think that $3M a season is completely out of this world for a 2nd line winger in the current market (though Weight's salary is "a little" high for a 2nd line center :p).
You make good points about Sanderson, but I would counter with a couple of things.

Sanderson will score about half as many goals this year as he did last year, while Savage has already more than doubled last season's output. Both Sanderson and Savage have scored about the same number of goals this year.

The most attractive feature of the Savage move is the option to let him go for zippo if he doesn't work out. I'll concede that $3MM for a six-time 30-goal man is a fair price, but if Sanderson is picked up by the Blues and lays a big, fat egg, then people like H.M.D. are lambasting Pleau up and down for "wasting $3MM on some washed-up bum whom every other GM could clearly see was in decline."

You know as well as I do that this is exactly the tack that these alleged "fans" would take...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
The Sillinger-BJ trade was one that was a win-win for both teams involved. Both teams were trying to get "something" for the respective players, and both have done more than was expected of them from their previous teams/fan base.

Unfortunately, Pleau had his share of bad moves, and not all of them involved players. The Quenneville firing still stings, although the hiring of Kitchen and giving him contract pretty much "sight unseen" was confusing; I can understand the need to instill confidence in your new coach, but this?
A change needed to be made, and firing a coach is, unfortunately, much easier to do than trading and/or replacing a half-dozen players.

And I wouldn't exactly call Kitchen "sight-unseen." As a head coach, yes, but keep in mind that he's been an assistant with the Blues for seven years plus. The Blues' management is very familiar with Mike Kitchen's abilities, and has more than adequate experience with him to base an evaluation of his talents upon.

For crying out loud, the Blues have lost exactly twice since Kitchen took over. They're playing their best hockey since November, and you can't tell me that the presence of Kitchen and Sillinger and Savage and Weinrich doesn't have something to do with that.

Sillinger's presence makes it possible for Cajanek to play on a top line, where he's played very well with Tkachuk and Demitra. Savage hasn't lit up the scoreboard yet, but his presence on the Weight line has made Weight a better player, and the goals will either come, or Savage will be gone in the off-season, at little present cost to the Blues and at no $3MM hit to next year's payroll.

There's no need to go into what Weinrich has meant to the Blues; it's evident in every game the guy plays. And yet all H.M.D. can say about his acquisition is that it's a waste of time because the Blues "are" going to be knocked out of the playoffs early, "if they make it at all."

I'd sure like to see the scientific, empirical evidence he used to support that conclusion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubina_Fan
I'd give him a middle-of-the-road 5. Not absolute suckitude, but could've done better.
That's pretty much exactly what I said, or very close to it.

The difference is, I didn't feel it necessary to qualify my ranking by detailing aspects of Pleau moves that I didn't like, which I could easily do, going all the way back to the unloading of Petr Smrek way back when.

Some folks -- and this is a direct reference to H.M.D., not you, Kubina_Fan -- are not satisfied with that. They demand disparagement of Pleau in every post, and if they don't get it, you're accused of "blindness," "toeing the company line," "drinking Pleau's Kool-Aid," "being a shill for the Blues," and every other thing under the sun... all because you don't buy their negative POV.

I'm not buying their negative POV. I choose to -- gasp -- actually enjoy the experience of being a Blues' fan. I wish things were done differently sometimes, but I'm world-wise enough to understand and accept that whining on an Internet message board isn't going to make any difference.

PrussianBlue

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