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Interesting look at the drury-morris deal

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Old
03-12-2004, 01:12 PM
  #51
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Gratton is by far the worst on the list.

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03-12-2004, 02:51 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob
just wondering if you think Darryl Sutter watches hockey?
because I'm not sure he shares this opinion

I'm not saying Yelle is clearly better than those guys. I don't believe that to be true (well possibly Hinote)

But I would argue that for the Flames at least (a small market team 9 games over .500) I wouldn't trade Yelle straight up for any of the other guys on the list (part of that is because of the needs of our particular team, I realize, and as such doesn't reflect on whether those are the same needs for the Aves)
I'm not trying to insinuate that Yelle isn't a good hockey player. He's the type of player that every teams needs, and fans appreciate.

I just think that the original poster that was saying that Yelle was "hands down" a better players that some other very good players was way off base. IMO, Kono is a great defensive player, who also scores at almost twice the amount that Yelle does. Same thing for Nikolishin, and he's Yelle's equivelant in the F/O circle. Barnaby the last couple of years has actually turned into a hockey player, who scores twice as often as Yelle, and is a physical presence to boot.

I think that you make a very good point on value to the Flames. Same with a guy like Cooke (or Sopel), is worth more to a smaller market team that can't afford to pay every player $2+M per year.

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Old
03-12-2004, 03:16 PM
  #53
looooob
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
I'm not trying to insinuate that Yelle isn't a good hockey player. He's the type of player that every teams needs, and fans appreciate.

I just think that the original poster that was saying that Yelle was "hands down" a better players that some other very good players was way off base. IMO, Kono is a great defensive player, who also scores at almost twice the amount that Yelle does. Same thing for Nikolishin, and he's Yelle's equivelant in the F/O circle. Barnaby the last couple of years has actually turned into a hockey player, who scores twice as often as Yelle, and is a physical presence to boot.

I think that you make a very good point on value to the Flames. Same with a guy like Cooke (or Sopel), is worth more to a smaller market team that can't afford to pay every player $2+M per year.
yeah I think we're on the same page. didn't really mean to challenge you on anything, I almost always agree with your posts

anyways it's interesting to look at Nikolishin and Yelle's stats this year. They are almost identical in GP, G , A , P , +/- and faceoff pct. I know Nikolishin had some decent offensive years in Washington, but I can't remember if he was in a scoring (ie top 2 line)forward role there? something that Yelle hasn't been in Col or Cgy and Nikolishin hasn't been in Col either

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03-12-2004, 05:52 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by andora
alright, and kono can provide us with all of this as well, except for faceoffs, however he's a winger. but then niko can step in and take care of the faceoffs, and the penalty killing, and the effort along the boards and effort every night...

cool, we have two yelles now.. ..
I was never arguing that the Avs need Stephane Yelle.

I simply have stated that he's a better hockey player than any of the players listed IMO, and I wouldn't trade him from the Flames straight up for any of those guys.

It has nothing to do with the Avalanche.

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Old
03-12-2004, 06:38 PM
  #55
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Stephane Yelle was the #1 missed player from the AVS lineup in last years playoffs..IMO.

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Old
03-12-2004, 06:46 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin Pad
Nikolishin, Konowalchuk, Barnaby, Gratton, Hinote.

I would take Yelle before ANY of the above - he is better than any of them - Hands down.
Hands down seems like a bit of hyperbole.

I'd certainly consider both Konowalchuk and Hinote over Yelle. It's definitely not hands down to Yelle.

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Old
03-12-2004, 11:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
For the most part, they're right. Especially when it comes to Gratton. Whoever terms Gratton as a third line player is deluding themselves. He's a 1st line player for 2-3 weeks of the season, and a 4th line whiny player for the rest. His defense is terrible. He serves one purpose: to win faceoffs. Unfortunately, you can't call timeout to get his overrated presence off the ice before play starts.
He has played just fine on the Coyotes 3rd line all season. He did exactly what he was supposed to: win faceoffs, play well defensively and chip in the occasional point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Gratton is by far the worst on the list.
Then how come every GM that has acquired him has paid so much for him?

Signed as a free agent by Philadelphia, August 14, 1997 (to a ridiculous contract). Traded to Tampa Bay by Philadelphia with Mike Sillinger for Mikael Renberg and Daymond Langkow, December 12, 1998. Traded to Buffalo by Tampa Bay for Brian Holzinger, Cory Sarich and Wayne Primeau, March 10, 2000. Traded to Phoenix by Buffalo with a 4th round draft pick in 2004 for Daniel Briere and a 3rd round draft pick in 2004, March 10, 2003. Traded to Colorado by Phoenix with Ossi Vaananen and a 2nd-round pick in the 2005 draft for Derek Morris and Keith Ballard, March 9, 2004.

His value has seemed to increase, correct?

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Old
03-12-2004, 11:26 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan


Then how come every GM that has acquired him has paid so much for him?

Signed as a free agent by Philadelphia, August 14, 1997 (to a ridiculous contract). Traded to Tampa Bay by Philadelphia with Mike Sillinger for Mikael Renberg and Daymond Langkow, December 12, 1998. Traded to Buffalo by Tampa Bay for Brian Holzinger, Cory Sarich and Wayne Primeau, March 10, 2000. Traded to Phoenix by Buffalo with a 4th round draft pick in 2004 for Daniel Briere and a 3rd round draft pick in 2004, March 10, 2003. Traded to Colorado by Phoenix with Ossi Vaananen and a 2nd-round pick in the 2005 draft for Derek Morris and Keith Ballard, March 9, 2004.

His value has seemed to increase, correct?
Any GM can overpay for someone. Any alot of GMs have. He had alot of potential, being drafted 3rd overall in '93, but has never really reached it. He, IMO, has not been worth what he's been traded for, not by a long shot(with an exception maybe on the trade to Buffalo). He is no where near the player Langkow is, the Briere trade it considered one of the worst ones PHO has ever made, and he should make this last deal a big loss for PL.

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Old
03-13-2004, 12:26 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Any GM can overpay for someone. Any alot of GMs have. He had alot of potential, being drafted 3rd overall in '93, but has never really reached it. He, IMO, has not been worth what he's been traded for, not by a long shot(with an exception maybe on the trade to Buffalo). He is no where near the player Langkow is, the Briere trade it considered one of the worst ones PHO has ever made, and he should make this last deal a big loss for PL.
That's just the thing. He will never be a point per game player, but he certainly has some desirable qualities, else no one would give up what people have given up for him. One could argue that someone so good would never be traded, but look at what has been offered for him.

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Old
03-13-2004, 12:33 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan
That's just the thing. He will never be a point per game player, but he certainly has some desirable qualities, else no one would give up what people have given up for him. One could argue that someone so good would never be traded, but look at what has been offered for him.
Good point. Gratton's faceoffs and defensive skills certainly impress many GMs, and he is coveted by alot of those GMs. The GMs of the teams that he is a part of obviously won't trade him for what other GMs would want to give up for him, or what many observers peg as his value, but in this era of defense wins championships, his desirable qualities, especially his defense, stand out enough to make GMs over trade for him.

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Old
03-13-2004, 12:39 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamin' Griz
Stephane Yelle is a better HOCKEY PLAYER than any of those guys.
He's not the scorer that Konowalchuk and Nikolishin can be at times. He's not as big as Gratton. He's not the agitatior that Barnaby is. He's not the clown that Dan Hinote is, but if you put a gun to my head and asked me to pick one player for my hockey team I'd take Yelle.
I'd pick Kono, then gratton, then yelle, but that's just me.

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Old
03-13-2004, 01:02 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamin' Griz
I was never arguing that the Avs need Stephane Yelle.

I simply have stated that he's a better hockey player than any of the players listed IMO, and I wouldn't trade him from the Flames straight up for any of those guys.

It has nothing to do with the Avalanche.
i know, i never brought value to each team into it, i really wanted to know, in your opninon (aside from saying, he's better than player X at this, better than player Y at this) what makes him a better HOCKEY PLAYER than kono, nikolishin, barnaby, gratton...

bring some more to the table other than the better than player X stuff at quality A stuff, b/c that is very weak imo

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Old
03-13-2004, 01:26 PM
  #63
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan
He has played just fine on the Coyotes 3rd line all season. He did exactly what he was supposed to: win faceoffs, play well defensively and chip in the occasional point.
Gratton does not play well defensively. He didn't chip in the occasional point. The success of Gratton with Phoenix is shown by how long he lasted there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan
Then how come every GM that has acquired him has paid so much for him?
GMs overpay on occasion. I'm not saying that Gratton doesn't have superior hockey skills, because he does. He's just a really bad hockey player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan
Signed as a free agent by Philadelphia, August 14, 1997 (to a ridiculous contract). Traded to Tampa Bay by Philadelphia with Mike Sillinger for Mikael Renberg and Daymond Langkow, December 12, 1998. Traded to Buffalo by Tampa Bay for Brian Holzinger, Cory Sarich and Wayne Primeau, March 10, 2000. Traded to Phoenix by Buffalo with a 4th round draft pick in 2004 for Daniel Briere and a 3rd round draft pick in 2004, March 10, 2003. Traded to Colorado by Phoenix with Ossi Vaananen and a 2nd-round pick in the 2005 draft for Derek Morris and Keith Ballard, March 9, 2004.

His value has seemed to increase, correct?
No, if anything, decrease. The comp picks for signing Gratton was ridiculous. TB should have taken that and run.

Buffalo won their trade with Tampa Bay, because you forgot the Sabres also got Derek Roy in exchange for Sarich, Holzinger and Primeau.

I don't see the value of things given up for Gratton increasing. Colorado got ripped a new one, but Vaananen is the most valuable asset coming from Phoenix, not Gratton.

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Old
03-13-2004, 01:34 PM
  #64
LALALALALALAFONTAINE
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Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
Good point. Gratton's faceoffs and defensive skills certainly impress many GMs, and he is coveted by alot of those GMs. The GMs of the teams that he is a part of obviously won't trade him for what other GMs would want to give up for him, or what many observers peg as his value, but in this era of defense wins championships, his desirable qualities, especially his defense, stand out enough to make GMs over trade for him.
What GM values Gratton's defense?

He was 9th in PK minutes per game, a good proxy for his defensive play in his own zone, among Coyote forwards.

In the NHL, he was 280th among forwards. That puts him in the lowest quartile of forwards, since there are 360 forwards. Even more striking is how few penalty minutes he gets because he is a great faceoff man. I think most of his PK minutes came as a result of his faceoff abilities and nothing else.

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:15 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE
Gratton does not play well defensively. He didn't chip in the occasional point. The success of Gratton with Phoenix is shown by how long he lasted there.
Being traded doesnt prove it at all. In this case Phoenix were offered a player that would be their #1 defenseman for their #3 D and #3 center, prospects and picks aside. It doesnt matter how well your third line center is playing, when you get a chance to get a top notch player, you do that deal every time.

Quote:
GMs overpay on occasion. I'm not saying that Gratton doesn't have superior hockey skills, because he does. He's just a really bad hockey player.
Sure they do on occassion. But you are basically saying that every GM has overpaid every time they've dealt for Gratton. I dont think its coincidence.. I think its pretty clear GMs just value Gratton a lot more than you do. PL reportedly had been trying to get Gratton for years.

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:29 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by looooob
so, looking at each team
Calgary: GETS Yelle,Warrener,Reinprecht GIVES Morris, 5th rounder
Colorado: GETS Gratton,Vaananen,2nd,5th GIVES Drury,Reinprecht,Yelle
Buffalo: GETS Drury,Briere GIVES Warrener,Ballard,Gratton
Phoenix: GETS Morris,Ballard GIVES Vaananen,Briere,2nd

interesting
I'm fairly positive that Phoenix and Buffalo also exchanged mid round picks in the Briere for Gratton swap.

I think the different teams win at different times.

In the present, Calgary and Buffalo win, then Colorado, then Phx.

In the future I think Phoenix will win since Ballard could end up being better then Morris, then Buffalo, COlorado and finally Calgary.

 
Old
03-13-2004, 02:48 PM
  #67
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One thing that people only occasionally consider when looking back at trades, is what would have happened if the players stayed where they were, with Yelle, he possibly would not have got the minutes that he has at Calgary and never become the player he now is, and therefore for the Av's his value is nowhere near that of the Flames ' Value for the same guy.
The same thing could be said about the kiprusoff trade, maybe Sutter did overpay at the time, but now, I don't think flames fan reverse the trade. Maybe the only way to judge it is to ask Lacroix would he reverse it (and even then he could argue the was playing percentages, as all trades are) Then again, this trade can not be really evaluated until the playoffs are done, so mayeb we should keep this one till then.....

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Old
03-29-2004, 01:19 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by steveburfoot
One thing that people only occasionally consider when looking back at trades, is what would have happened if the players stayed where they were, with Yelle, he possibly would not have got the minutes that he has at Calgary and never become the player he now is, and therefore for the Av's his value is nowhere near that of the Flames ' Value for the same guy.
The same thing could be said about the kiprusoff trade, maybe Sutter did overpay at the time, but now, I don't think flames fan reverse the trade. Maybe the only way to judge it is to ask Lacroix would he reverse it (and even then he could argue the was playing percentages, as all trades are) Then again, this trade can not be really evaluated until the playoffs are done, so mayeb we should keep this one till then.....
Yelle is on pace for 6g & 20a = 26 points, which is comparable to his point production over his career. We're not talking about a guy like St. Louis who busted out on a new team. We're talking about a character guy who has always been a great F/O & PK'er that will score 20-25 points.

I think this is a case of a guy being appreciated in a new city where the fans probably overlooked what he brought to the table for his former team.

I have always like Stephane Yelle, but he's a great 4th liner & PK'er IMO. I'd love to have him on my team, but I can't believe that there are many GM's who would take Yelle over Kono (assuming needs in both positions).

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Old
03-29-2004, 12:22 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
Yelle is on pace for 6g & 20a = 26 points, which is comparable to his point production over his career. We're not talking about a guy like St. Louis who busted out on a new team. We're talking about a character guy who has always been a great F/O & PK'er that will score 20-25 points.

I think this is a case of a guy being appreciated in a new city where the fans probably overlooked what he brought to the table for his former team.

I have always like Stephane Yelle, but he's a great 4th liner & PK'er IMO. I'd love to have him on my team, but I can't believe that there are many GM's who would take Yelle over Kono (assuming needs in both positions).
yes and no.

you seem to be implying that Flames fans didn't appreciate the player that Aves fans did, in Stephane Yelle. Yelle though was about to be waived out of Colorado, and I read plenty of threads at the time about Aves fans being happy to see Yelle and his 'hands of stone' leave town (not everyone to be sure)

I think Yelle is actually the kind of guy you appreciate when you DON'T have him...many Flames fans took him for granted until he started getting hurt. he's no offensive dynamo to be sure, but he makes fewer mistakes than any player I've seen in Calgary in a long time (and that includes players like multiple Selke nominee Craig Conroy)

would many GMs take Yelle over Kono? probably not. Sutter would, in part because he relies on a player like Yelle centering the third line the way he did with Ricci in San Jose...

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