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Old
03-19-2009, 11:01 PM
  #276
Opus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Consider it dropped.

The one thing I would ask is that I really enjoy debating stuff (especially when I'm supposed to be writing about ISI), but I prefer to actually have a good argument instead of just two people throwing opinions at each other without fact to back it up, obviously everybody's entitled to their opinion, but that's a very simplistic way of debating.
I know you like to debate stuff, it's well documented.

Facts...

- JVR is playing College hockey against College players.
- JVR has only played 34 games (WJC aside), we can call it 40 if you like.
- NHL hockey is miles ahead, better than the level of competitiveness in which he used to.
- The average player in the NHL is much stronger than the average strength of a player in his league.

Just like it was a lot to ask Sbisa to make the leap, it would be a lot to ask JVR to make the leap (for many reasons). Cap room, or lack there of, aside...what line would he play on? Neither of us know. Safe to assume he'd get 1st line minutes in the AHL, not with the Flyers. That, IMO, helps with his development.

Of course he could play in the NHL next season, any player that's property of the Flyers with a contract could 'technically' play in the NHL...but it doesn't mean that they will affective and that it's in their best interest.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic (for now)...I know your thoughts and opinions, and you know mine.

Like I said, we'll see soon enough.


Have a great night~!

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Old
03-19-2009, 11:01 PM
  #277
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HN Future Watch 09

I just picked up the Hockey News Future Watch 09 magazine today... top 50 prospects ranked and Flyers have #6 (JVR), #8 (Giroux) and #13 (Sbisa). Parent is ranked 53rd.

The top ranked are:
1. Nikita Filatov (CBJ)
2. Cody Hodgson (VAN)
3. Jakob Markstrom (FLA)
4. Colin Wilson (NASH)
5. Alex Pietrangelo (STL)
6. JVR (PHI)
7. Erik Karlsson (OTT)
8. Giroux (PHI)
9. Tyler Myers (BUF)
10. Max Pacioretty (MTL)
11. Tuukka Rask (BOS)
12. Simeon Varlamov (WAS)
13. Sbisa (PHI)
14. MikaelBacklund (CAL)
15. PK Subban (MTL)

Pretty awesome to have 3 Flyers in the top 13! Future looks bright if we can manage the cap and hold on to the core of the team and work these guys in.

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Old
03-19-2009, 11:04 PM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Yeah, I mostly agree with you here. If he's on the team he's probably starting with third line minutes anyway, so I don't think the conditioning is an issue, but it also wouldn't hurt him to build it up even more with top line minutes in the AHL. I don't see him play enough to have an opinion on whether he's ready, but due primarily to cap reasons I think it's best to give him an entire season with the Phantoms. He'll be what? 20? Nothing wrong with bringing a guy that age along slowly. Even if he's ready he'll still learn a great deal down there (which I know you don't disagree with).
Agree with everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastieBoy
I just picked up the Hockey News Future Watch 09 magazine today... top 50 prospects ranked and Flyers have #6 (JVR), #8 (Giroux) and #13 (Sbisa). Parent is ranked 53rd.

The top ranked are:
1. Nikita Filatov (CBJ)
2. Cody Hodgson (VAN)
3. Jakob Markstrom (FLA)
4. Colin Wilson (NASH)
5. Alex Pietrangelo (STL)
6. JVR (PHI)
7. Erik Karlsson (OTT)
8. Giroux (PHI)
9. Tyler Myers (BUF)
10. Max Pacioretty (MTL)
11. Tuukka Rask (BOS)
12. Simeon Varlamov (WAS)
13. Sbisa (PHI)
14. MikaelBacklund (CAL)
15. PK Subban (MTL)

Pretty awesome to have 3 Flyers in the top 13! Future looks bright if we can manage the cap and hold on to the core of the team and work these guys in.
Out of curiosity, what were the qualifications for the list, how many NHL games?

Because it looks awful.

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Old
03-19-2009, 11:04 PM
  #279
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The rest of the Flyers top 10 prospects in the HN Future Watch are (in order):
5. Kalinski
6. Ratchuk
7. Bourdon
8. Bartulis
9. Marshall
10. Maroon

I'm a bit surprised to see Oskars Bartulis that high up on the list... I haven't heard too much about his season on the Phantoms.

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Old
03-19-2009, 11:10 PM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Agree with everything.



Out of curiosity, what were the qualifications for the list, how many NHL games?

Because it looks awful.
Players who have established themselves as full-time NHLers were no longer considered prospects for the ranking (like Schenn, Moller, Bailey, Alzner... even Nodl (from when list was compiled I guess)). It is compiled by NHL scouts.

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Old
03-19-2009, 11:40 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I know you like to debate stuff, it's well documented.

Facts...

- JVR is playing College hockey against College players.
- JVR has only played 34 games (WJC aside), we can call it 40 if you like.
- NHL hockey is miles ahead, better than the level of competitiveness in which he used to.
- The average player in the NHL is much stronger than the average strength of a player in his league.

Just like it was a lot to ask Sbisa to make the leap, it would be a lot to ask JVR to make the leap (for many reasons). Cap room, or lack there of, aside...what line would he play on? Neither of us know. Safe to assume he'd get 1st line minutes in the AHL, not with the Flyers. That, IMO, helps with his development.

Of course he could play in the NHL next season, any player that's property of the Flyers with a contract could 'technically' play in the NHL...but it doesn't mean that they will affective and that it's in their best interest.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic (for now)...I know your thoughts and opinions, and you know mine.

Like I said, we'll see soon enough.


Have a great night~!
I can tell you for a 100% fact that it is MUCH harder playing a pro schedule compared to a college schedule. Believe me, playing 3-4 games a week compared to 1 or maybe 2 takes a toll...fact. Not to mention that pro hockey is more physical and the refs let more rough stuff go.

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Old
03-20-2009, 12:46 AM
  #282
Jim Schennson
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I think JVR will basically be treated the way Giroux was this year. He'll go into camp with a shot at making the big club, but if he doesn't unequivocally win a spot, then he'll be sent to the Phantoms (or, whatever they'll be called next year, wherever they are). If he acquits himself well there, and then the Flyers subsequently need/can afford him as a callup, then he'll be called up, like Giroux. Then, if he proves that he belongs with the Flyers, then he'll stick, again, like Giroux.

I know, that all seemed pretty self-evident, but JVR's development has been critiqued so much since the day that he was drafted that I think it's just going to take finally seeing him in camp with the big boys to know where he fits going into next season. Prospect development, and the choices they make, are constantly debated on HFboards, with proponents of the CHL, NCAA, Europe, and the AHL respectively, but I think each prospect, their choices, and their development should be evaluated on a case to case basis. We all can, have, and will continue to debate the choices that JVR has made (including NCAA vs. CHL, and a 2nd year at UNH vs. a whole year with the Phantoms), but it's going to take him getting to Philly for us as fans to watch more closely what has, and what will, become of him.


Last edited by Jim Schennson: 03-20-2009 at 01:20 AM. Reason: adding to an already long-winded post.
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Old
03-20-2009, 02:49 AM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beastieboy View Post
The rest of the Flyers top 10 prospects in the HN Future Watch are (in order):
5. Kalinski
6. Ratchuk
7. Bourdon
8. Bartulis
9. Marshall
10. Maroon

I'm a bit surprised to see Oskars Bartulis that high up on the list... I haven't heard too much about his season on the Phantoms.
I assume JVR, Giroux and Sbisa are 1, 2 and 3. Who's #4? Parent?

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Old
03-20-2009, 05:25 AM
  #284
Chuck Downie
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Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
I assume JVR, Giroux and Sbisa are 1, 2 and 3. Who's #4? Parent?
He is. Nodl was omitted from the list because he was in the NHL at the time.

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Old
03-20-2009, 07:50 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeastieBoy
The rest of the Flyers top 10 prospects in the HN Future Watch are (in order):
5. Kalinski
6. Ratchuk
7. Bourdon
8. Bartulis
9. Marshall
10. Maroon

I'm a bit surprised to see Oskars Bartulis that high up on the list... I haven't heard too much about his season on the Phantoms.
That's brutal.

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Old
03-20-2009, 01:06 PM
  #286
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I think if JVR is signed he will ultimately end up in the AHL. Where are you going to play him? the 3rd or 4th line next season? I am sure he will be given every opportunity to make the club next season or whenever he is signed but I just think with our group of forwards right now it would be best if hes getting top line minutes in the AHL.
Whats he going to learn getting 8-10 minutes a game with the Flyers? keep him with the Phantoms for a full season and let him develop his game down there. Of course if Knuble doesnt come back, if Lupul is traded that could change things. But as it stands right now I would have him in the AHL. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I'll give you an example: Bobby Ryan.

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Old
03-20-2009, 03:20 PM
  #287
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Don't know if you guys have seen this, don't know how reputable this site is (if at all), just thought I'd share.....

Quote:
Expect vanRiemsdyk to remain with the University of New Hampshire until at least after his junior year, although the Flyers will most likely encourage him to leave a year early like fellow rookies Erik Johnson and Kyle Okposo.
EDIT: Apparently, HFBoards doesn't like the link.


Last edited by Judge Smails: 03-20-2009 at 03:29 PM.
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Old
03-20-2009, 03:27 PM
  #288
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If JVR pulls this ****, Ill send em a facebook message myself calling him an *******!




But seriously. Come the **** on.

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Old
03-20-2009, 03:31 PM
  #289
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I can't post the link, but I came across that JVR story on the UNH board at uscho in case anyone feels like poking around on there.

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Old
03-20-2009, 04:07 PM
  #290
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Sometime we have to give up all the fun and games and get on with real life, it can't always be hockey and college girls all the time. um, wait, playing for the big club means hockey all the time without the classwork and a way more cash, and covergirls. he's freakin nuts.
Besides he can always go to a frat party with richie and carter if he misses the college life.

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Old
03-20-2009, 04:18 PM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
Sometime we have to give up all the fun and games and get on with real life, it can't always be hockey and college girls all the time. um, wait, playing for the big club means hockey all the time without the classwork and a way more cash, and covergirls. he's freakin nuts.
Besides he can always go to a frat party with richie and carter if he misses the college life.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! did he not see celebrity sober house with lupul on it???? that party looked way better then any frat party i was at. plus there was supermodels there. not freshman girls who are on there way to gaining an extra 20lbs...

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Old
03-20-2009, 05:41 PM
  #292
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I really don't think JVR is going to stay at UNH for another year, but if he does, I think Homer would, and probably should, trade his a$$.

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Old
03-20-2009, 09:22 PM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge Smails View Post
I can't post the link, but I came across that JVR story on the UNH board at uscho in case anyone feels like poking around on there.
That article looks like it was someone who doesn't know much about what they are talking about, saying that JVR wants to stay another year. I'm not even sure JVR knows what he will do, let along a guy who writes for *******************

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Old
03-20-2009, 11:55 PM
  #294
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BU beat BC and UMASS Lowell upset Northeastern in the hockeyeast playoffs friday night.
Thankfully BU won because a BC win, could have been bad news for UNH's seeding. We'll have to wait and see how UMASS Lowell could affect UNH's seeding.
would the comitee take 5 hockeyeast teams?
BU/NU/UML/BC/UNH
I dont know honestly.

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Old
03-21-2009, 12:19 AM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Facts...

- JVR is playing College hockey against College players.
- JVR has only played 34 games (WJC aside), we can call it 40 if you like.
- NHL hockey is miles ahead, better than the level of competitiveness in which he used to.
- The average player in the NHL is much stronger than the average strength of a player in his league.
Excuses. Look at Dany Heatley, Paul Kariya, Keith Tkachuk, etc....They all made the jump from the NCAA to the NHL with no problems and produced right away. If JVR can't make the jump, then yes, there's going to be problems.

People have cut JVR way too much slack. He's the 2nd overall choice in his draft year. When he finally decides to turn pro, he needs to come out and show he was worth the 2nd overall choice. I'm sorry, but if he can't crack the top nine in Philadelphia, then the franchise needs to seriously look at him being a bust. I'll say this, everything the team has asked him to do, he's done the exact opposite. They talked about him going to the OHL, he went to an NCAA program that's questionable at best (when's the last time an impact forward, defenseman or goaltender came out of New Hampshire). They talked about him turning pro to get his game to the next level, he stayed in the NCAA (and has his game really improved that much since staying - he's gone from averaging 1.09 points a game to 1.14). And let's not forget his second disappointing performance at the World Junior Championships (yes, he scored points, but he did so against lesser teams. When it came to elite teams, he was nowhere to be found).

I'm rough on JVR because as the second overall choice, you expect to see some improvement in his development. Seriously, there's been nothing in terms of improvement. That's what has me concerned about JVR. Guys like Heatley came into the league and they were dominant to begin with. I look at JVR and I just see a guy who has all the skills, but I question his work ethic and dedication as to whether he wants to be great.

I honestly think JVR has had it too easy throughout his career and there's never been anyone to challenge him. That's part of the reason why I think New Hampshire was such a poor choice of school. He could have went to a real hockey program where he would have really developed. Schools like Minnesota, Denver, Boston College, Boston University, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, and Maine at least have a reputation for developing players who are impact players at the NHL. I've watched the New Hampshire games (I get a subscription to the Big 10 network and often watch the hockey and I've seen several New Hampshire games) and every time I've seen JVR, he's been unimpressive. He's been a floater and a cherry picker and on occasion, he'll decide to play a shift or two and then goes back into those lazy habits. And the fact that the coach hasn't called him out on it is what makes it even worse.

Ok, so maybe that was a little long winded, but don't use the excuse that players can't jump from the NCAA to NHL and not make an impact because it's simply not true.

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Old
03-21-2009, 01:24 AM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post

People have cut JVR way too much slack. He's the 2nd overall choice in his draft year. When he finally decides to turn pro, he needs to come out and show he was worth the 2nd overall choice. I'm sorry, but if he can't crack the top nine in Philadelphia, then the franchise needs to seriously look at him being a bust. I'll say this, everything the team has asked him to do, he's done the exact opposite. They talked about him going to the OHL, he went to an NCAA program that's questionable at best (when's the last time an impact forward, defenseman or goaltender came out of New Hampshire). They talked about him turning pro to get his game to the next level, he stayed in the NCAA (and has his game really improved that much since staying - he's gone from averaging 1.09 points a game to 1.14). And let's not forget his second disappointing performance at the World Junior Championships (yes, he scored points, but he did so against lesser teams. When it came to elite teams, he was nowhere to be found).
Sorry man, but you lost me right there. You may have some legitimate points in your post, but you can't consider a top prospect a bust until he's at least gotten a chance to prove himself in the pros for a few seasons, let alone just not making the big club in his first training camp. Giroux didn't make the Flyers right out of camp this year. I guess he's a bust too.

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Old
03-21-2009, 01:33 AM
  #297
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That article looks like it was someone who doesn't know much about what they are talking about, saying that JVR wants to stay another year. I'm not even sure JVR knows what he will do, let along a guy who writes for *******************
Yeah, I read the article too, and the quote about JVR staying till his Junior year really just sounds like conjecture by the author to me. He doesn't really cite any specific reasons, or quote any people, as to why we should expect JVR to stay till he's a Junior. He just says expect it. I don't expect it.

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Old
03-21-2009, 01:35 AM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick van Riemsdyk View Post
Sorry man, but you lost me right there. You may have some legitimate points in your post, but you can't consider a top prospect a bust until he's at least gotten a chance to prove himself in the pros for a few seasons, let alone just not making the big club in his first training camp. Giroux didn't make the Flyers right out of camp this year. I guess he's a bust too.
Bobby Ryan, drafted 2nd only to Sidney Crosby spent time in the AHL...and is hardly a bust. I don't get where some people are coming from in that regard.

Much like Sbisa, I'd rather see them progress where they are better suited to succeed. As a rookie, confidence is very fragile and should be handled with care. I also think the additional games will be a step in the right direction right off the bat. I'd also rather see JVR with 1st line minutes (AHL) rather than tucking him away on the 3rd line with the Flyers.

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Old
03-21-2009, 01:38 AM
  #299
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So what would be the big deal of JVR going to the AHL for a season anyway?
He'd be a bust if he went to the AHL? is Bobby Ryan a bust? he was the 2nd pick behind Crosby.
So many people are so ******* quick to throw the B word out.

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03-21-2009, 05:50 AM
  #300
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MA Bourdon had 1a as Rimouski beat Chicoutimi. Rimouski leads the series 1-0.

Kevin Marshall had 1a as Quebec beat Baie-Comeau. Quebec leads 1-0.

Zac Rinaldo's London Knights beat Erie. London leads the series 1-0

Luca Sbisa's Lethbridge Hurricanes lost 4-1 to Saskatoon. Saskatoon leads the series 1-0

Jacob Deserres's Seattle Thunderbirds lost 2-1 to Spokane. Deserres has a groin injury and did not play. Spokane leads 1-0

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