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2/19/09 "Don't Toews Me, Bro!" - Blackhawks VS. Panthers

View Poll Results: So who treads on the other?
Panthers 18 81.82%
Blackhawks 4 18.18%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-20-2009, 12:44 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
sad but true.



i'd expect PDB to back boynton up publicly. he did the same thing with vokoun on ovie's late goal last week.
Of course, he couldn't be totally honest there and he really doesn't expect anything less?

I mean, other team's watch tape, people. Other teams watch what the Panthers reaction is to things and what will happen. They see someone bump (it doesn't matter who initiated it) the goalie and only get a 2 minute penalty against with no retribution, what do you think is going to happen? |They're going to start running Vokoun..again. Anyone wonder why that's not been happening? Couldn't be because Boynton, Ballard, Tarnasky, etc. are here to make them answer for it and they saw that last night? I'd rather a team not be OK with two minutes and the knowledge they can take T-Vo off his game and can run him all night.

Really Zero, you say comments like, "well, he's an NHL coach and he knows (insert about anything here) better than we do on a message board." That's the hockey code, you'd don't touch a goalie and you try to get out of the way better or you face a ton of the opposition in your face.

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02-20-2009, 12:45 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Thats hockey coach politics. He isn't going to publicly call out a player over something like that. Deboer knows what he is doing.
Uh...OK, . So, he's not being honest? What purpose is there to call him out on it at all?

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02-20-2009, 12:46 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
Anyone else see Scottie Bowman at the game? He was right near my section buying a drink from the concession. It was hilarious that only like 3 people recognized him.
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
Laus said a friend of his sat next to him. I wonder why he didn't just watch the game from the press box?
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
I was thinking the same thing. Its weird that he'd be sitting with the fans and not in the press box.
Friend of mine was sitting right next to him and he apparently likes to come in and watch a bit of the game. He left after the 2nd goal. I think several people recognized, at least acording to my friend, but they didn't want to ruin his night.

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02-20-2009, 12:53 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Of course, he couldn't be totally honest there and he really doesn't expect anything less?

I mean, other team's watch tape, people. Other teams watch what the Panthers reaction is to things and what will happen. They see someone bump (it doesn't matter who initiated it) the goalie and only get a 2 minute penalty against with no retribution, what do you think is going to happen? |They're going to start running Vokoun..again. Anyone wonder why that's not been happening? Couldn't be because Boynton, Ballard, Tarnasky, etc. are here to make them answer for it and they saw that last night? I'd rather a team not be OK with two minutes and the knowledge they can take T-Vo off his game and can run him all night.
How is one instance going to give other teams the green light to run the goalie from then on? If Boynton had done that in the first or second period, I wouldn't have been as annoyed. He did it in the end of the third when the team was about to go on the powerplay. And, Vokoun was not run last night. He initiated contact and made it look good to get the call.

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02-20-2009, 12:57 PM
  #205
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How is one instance going to give other teams the green light to run the goalie from then on? If Boynton had done that in the first or second period, I wouldn't have been as annoyed. He did it in the end of the third when the team was about to go on the powerplay. And, Vokoun was not run last night. He initiated contact and made it look good to get the call.
Yeah well, I don't agree, think whatever you want. Apparently the coach doesn't agree with you, either. That's all I need.

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02-20-2009, 01:21 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Yeah well, I don't agree, think whatever you want. Apparently the coach doesn't agree with you, either. That's all I need.
that's if you take the coaches words at face value; a dangerous proposition. i think the other posters are correct - coaches aren't going to call a player out for a questionable play like that. the guys don't like to be embarrassed. when you heard vokoun last week, he admitted that was a save he had to make, yet coach said it wasn't his fault. who's right? have you heard what boynton has to say about the play? i'd be interested to hear if he accepted some responsibility. i'm going to be he does.

i'm not saying there isn't anything to your larger point - that opponents have to be held accountable if they run our guys. i just think you have to be smart about stuff like that. last night isn't the biggest deal but, for example, if that was a playoff game and we lost our last good chance to get back into the game as a result of his actions, it would've been huge. you have to be smart.

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02-20-2009, 01:21 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Uh...OK, . So, he's not being honest? What purpose is there to call him out on it at all?
He didn't say it was the right thing to do. He said he understands why he would do that.

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02-20-2009, 01:22 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
that's if you take the coaches words at face value; a dangerous proposition. i think the other posters are correct - coaches aren't going to call a player out for a questionable play like that. the guys don't like to be embarrassed. when you heard vokoun last week, he admitted that was a save he had to make, yet coach said it wasn't his fault. who's right? have you heard what boynton has to say about the play? i'd be interested to hear if he accepted some responsibility. i'm going to be he does.

i'm not saying there isn't anything to your larger point - that opponents have to be held accountable if they run our guys. i just think you have to be smart about stuff like that. last night isn't the biggest deal but, for example, if that was a playoff game and we lost our last good chance to get back into the game as a result of his actions, it would've been huge. you have to be smart.
yup.

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02-20-2009, 02:29 PM
  #209
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I did manage to watch the third period last night (up until the empty-netter with 3:50 to go).

It wasn't bad for a loss - I was on the edge of my seat thinking the Panthers would manage to tie it (score was 1-0) and even to get back within one after the 2-0 tally. The energy and effort seemed to be there - Chicago just played an incredibly solid, smothering defensive game. Still wondering how Horton managed to not score - twice - after he'd beaten Huet. Other than that, though, the team had no real chances as there were instantly 4 guys on whomever had the puck whenever they broke into the zone. They just couldn't gain the slot. But I don't know how the first two periods went.

You can't win them all - sometimes the other team just plays better. This was one of those games. I didn't think the Panthers would win anyway, so I'm not down about it. I'll just hope for a quick rebound.

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02-20-2009, 02:53 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
You can't win them all - sometimes the other team just plays better. This was one of those games. I didn't think the Panthers would win anyway, so I'm not down about it. I'll just hope for a quick rebound.
I'm hoping for the same, but the next two games against Boston has me worried. The Panthers can't afford to go on a 3 game losing skid now...

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02-20-2009, 03:05 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
The whole team with the exception of Ballard and Vokoun, played terrible tonight.

A shakeup is needed after this bad of a performance.
overreact much? lol.

the biggest issue was that chicago dictated the game to us in terms of style. they're good enough (and conversely, we aren't good enough) to come out and dominate if you aren't on top of your game and we weren't. PDB's post-game pressers are pretty good in terms of perspective and what he said was "their speed exposed us". he reiterated that in the post-practice interview on panthers.com. i interpreted that in several ways - they were on our D so quick on the forecheck, we weren't able to move the puck and generate transition. when we did, the forwards were turning the puck over. on the other end of the ice, their D were so quick (and really, we weren't able to get in on them - see previous comment as to why we had no speed), we couldn't get the forecheck going. mccabe mentioned that post-game. boynton talked about getting in on their D and hitting them during his in-game with potvin. it didn't happen, though. we got a little better as the game went on but we never really got OUR game going. the 4th line had a few shifts in the first and the second and we traded some chances in transition which *could've* turned the game around but that's still not how we've been successful. to a man, that's what you get from listening to the post-game interviews and reflects what we saw. no cause for a *big* shake-up, though PDB mentioned possibly making a change "up front" for tomorrow night.

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02-20-2009, 03:39 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
He didn't say it was the right thing to do. He said he understands why he would do that.
NO, he said he would EXPECT that type of reaction and I'm going to bet that it's for the reasons I'd stated. Here's the quote, again:

Quote:
''Those are important messages to send,'' DeBoer said. ``Tomas has been playing great, is our starting goalie and highest-paid player. When someone takes a liberty with him, I would expect that type of reaction.''
His words are strong and to the point, not a "well, it wasn't his fault, I understand why he did that." He was poignant, and yes Zero, I do take those words at face value. I don't see how you can't, especially since it's replete throughout hockey. You don't touch the goalie, it's that simple.

I don't like that Boynton took a penalty, obviously, but I don't think there should have been one, he didn't have to call it. The argument that "it was a possibility and therefore Nick should've thought about it beforehand" doesn't hold a whole lot of water, imo. I mean, how many times do players do things that can be whistled for? They aren't always called. Iow, Nick did what his life as a hockey player and a professional player told him to do, you go in there and let it be known that you don't touch the goalie. Why do you think Vinny fought when Rammo was hit? Last night when Pogge was hit, you don't touch the goalie, starter or not.

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02-20-2009, 03:46 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
NO, he said he would EXPECT that type of reaction and I'm going to bet that it's for the reasons I'd stated. Here's the quote, again:



His words are strong and to the point, not a "well, it wasn't his fault, I understand why he did that." He was poignant, and yes Zero, I do take those words at face value. I don't see how you can't, especially since it's replete throughout hockey. You don't touch the goalie, it's that simple.

I don't like that Boynton took a penalty, obviously, but I don't think there should have been one, he didn't have to call it. The argument that "it was a possibility and therefore Nick should've thought about it beforehand" doesn't hold a whole lot of water, imo. I mean, how many times do players do things that can be whistled for? They aren't always called. Iow, Nick did what his life as a hockey player and a professional player told him to do, you go in there and let it be known that you don't touch the goalie. Why do you think Vinny fought when Rammo was hit? Last night when Pogge was hit, you don't touch the goalie, starter or not.
First I paraphrased, didn't quote but w/e. He still didn't say it was the right thing to do.

Boynton made a bad decision given the circumstances. Vokoun didn't get run, in fact, I would say he went out of his way to draw the penalty. Down by two goals with that much time left, Boynton can't cancel our pp out like that. Dropping the gloves was simply a bad move. I understand the whole, protect the goalie idea but he can't kill an opportunity like that. As Zero pointed out, you could hear the ref say we we're getting a pp and then Boynton drops the gloves! Horton even went over to try to stop him. Its great that he is a team player but given the circumstances he has to control himself.

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02-20-2009, 03:52 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
First I paraphrased, didn't quote but w/e. He still didn't say it was the right thing to do.

Boynton made a bad decision given the circumstances. Vokoun didn't get run, in fact, I would say he went out of his way to draw the penalty. Down by two goals with that much time left, Boynton can't cancel our pp out like that. Dropping the gloves was simply a bad move. I understand the whole, protect the goalie idea but he can't kill an opportunity like that. As Zero pointed out, you could hear the ref say we we're getting a pp and then Boynton drops the gloves! Horton even went over to try to stop him. Its great that he is a team player but given the circumstances he has to control himself.
No, Boynton dropped the gloves, grabbed Bolland, looked at the ref, stopped, then was asked by the ref why he did that and that we had a powerplay. He wasn't told first. I don't care what Horton did, Nick was already there, he stopped when he saw the refs, there was no reason for a call there. None. Zip, zilch, zero. None.

Bolland touched the goalie, he needs to try harder to get out of the way. Again, for the umpteenth time, this is how hockey is, that's the reaction when a golie is hit, it happened in Toronto last night as well when Schenn fought Boll. It was more blatant, but that's what happens when a goalie is touched. That's hockey.

Again, Boynton came in at an angle, focussed on Bolland, where it seemed to me that he didn't see the ref, once he did he let up and barely touched Bolland. No need for a call.

DeBoer said he expected it, what's that not tell you?

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02-20-2009, 04:01 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
No, Boynton dropped the gloves, grabbed Bolland, looked at the ref, stopped, then was asked by the ref why he did that and that we had a powerplay. He wasn't told first. I don't care what Horton did, Nick was already there, he stopped when he saw the refs, there was no reason for a call there. None. Zip, zilch, zero. None.

Bolland touched the goalie, he needs to try harder to get out of the way. Again, for the umpteenth time, this is how hockey is, that's the reaction when a golie is hit, it happened in Toronto last night as well when Schenn fought Boll. It was more blatant, but that's what happens when a goalie is touched. That's hockey.

Again, Boynton came in at an angle, focussed on Bolland, where it seemed to me that he didn't see the ref, once he did he let up and barely touched Bolland. No need for a call.

DeBoer said he expected it, what's that not tell you?
The linesman was in between them. Its not like he could really do anything anyway. Also, the ref warned him before he dropped the gloves. Zero heard it as well. Horton is relevant because he knew not to do anything stupid and was even going to stop Boynton. Goldie or Potvin also commented on it. As I said before, Vokoun drew that penalty. This was also noted by Goldie and Potvin. A smart move canceled out by Boynton's dumb move.

DeBoer isn't going to crucify a player publicly. Not his style. Just because its expected doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.

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02-20-2009, 04:09 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
The linesman was in between them. Its not like he could really do anything anyway. Also, the ref warned him before he dropped the gloves. Zero heard it as well. Horton is relevant because he knew not to do anything stupid and was even going to stop Boynton. Goldie or Potvin also commented on it. As I said before, Vokoun drew that penalty. This was also noted by Goldie and Potvin. A smart move canceled out by Boynton's dumb move.

DeBoer isn't going to crucify a player publicly. Not his style. Just because its expected doesn't mean it was the right thing to do.
It was still expected.

Also, I'd love to see a youtube of this because I was pretty clear in seeing Boynton race up to him either as or just before the linesman got there. It was then said that he has a PP. Either way, Boynton did nothing, why's that hard, face it, it didn't have to be called and we've all seen worse called. It was a dumb call.

I'll argue this til I'm blue in the face, you and noone else will convince me that Boynton was wrong, especially since he didn't do anything and stopped once he saw the ref (not Nate). DeBoer's statements back up my stance, no matter how you want to spin them. Tbh,it's baffling to me that some here have gotten on Nick like they have. Nearly everyone I've spoken to who saw it live agree with me as well.

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02-20-2009, 04:23 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
NO, he said he would EXPECT that type of reaction and I'm going to bet that it's for the reasons I'd stated. Here's the quote, again:

His words are strong and to the point, not a "well, it wasn't his fault, I understand why he did that." He was poignant, and yes Zero, I do take those words at face value. I don't see how you can't, especially since it's replete throughout hockey. You don't touch the goalie, it's that simple.

I don't like that Boynton took a penalty, obviously, but I don't think there should have been one, he didn't have to call it. The argument that "it was a possibility and therefore Nick should've thought about it beforehand" doesn't hold a whole lot of water, imo. I mean, how many times do players do things that can be whistled for? They aren't always called. Iow, Nick did what his life as a hockey player and a professional player told him to do, you go in there and let it be known that you don't touch the goalie. Why do you think Vinny fought when Rammo was hit? Last night when Pogge was hit, you don't touch the goalie, starter or not.
wrt the first item, that's fine. neither one of us knows but he can be unhappy about the nick's decision to drop his gloves and get 2 minutes while still being unequivocal in his support for him. his support of vokie was unequivocal. he's a smart guy, he knows nick's just reacting and that he doesn't want to undermine his confidence or have him second-guessing himself, etc.

at the same time, nick can't take a penalty in those situations. i mean, heck, even horton realized that and was pulling him away!

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02-20-2009, 04:26 PM
  #218
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wrt the first item, that's fine. neither one of us knows but he can be unhappy about the nick's decision to drop his gloves and get 2 minutes while still being unequivocal in his support for him. his support of vokie was unequivocal. he's a smart guy, he knows nick's just reacting and that he doesn't want to undermine his confidence or have him second-guessing himself, etc.

at the same time, nick can't take a penalty in those situations. i mean, heck, even horton realized that and was pulling him away!
After Nick had already let up. Maybe I need see the youtube on this, anyone have one? (Doubtful, I'm sure)

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02-20-2009, 05:45 PM
  #219
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After Nick had already let up. Maybe I need see the youtube on this, anyone have one? (Doubtful, I'm sure)
yeah but that's not the point - he still realized it wasn't worth jeopardizing the PP opportunity. btw, i also agree with you about the marginal call and it did seem like boynton backed away after he heard the official say that. i guess after talking amongst themselves, they decided to make the call.

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02-20-2009, 06:49 PM
  #220
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As usual, great discussion.

My take on this is that PDB was not being political--because I really don't see him being that political as a coach. He's called out people before, like Vokoun, for example. I do know that he tends to comment on the "team" aspect more than indivdual players. Look what he's said about Weiss--he needs to shoot more. That's putting some public pressure on him, so I take his quote re. Boynton as less political than straight out calling it for what it is.

Another side to this discussion. Vokoun did initiate contact--I did see that, and agree with you, AFTER watching the slow motion replay. Until then, I thought the guy had run Vokoun. And I'm not the only one--the refs thought so too. So did Boynton, because he came up ready to straighten things out. So I don't think Vokoun's initiating contact bears into this discussion.

Boynton saw what he saw, and reacted as he should have. And the coach agrees with him (unless PDB is more political than I give him credit for).

Either way, Chicago was the better team last night. What makes me happy is the feeling that Florida is going to turn into the next Chicago. And that is going to make future matchups with Washington very interesting and exciting.

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