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Old
02-20-2009, 11:27 PM
  #76
Jacob
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Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
The only reason that anyone is *****ing about the "BPA" philosophy, is because the players we have drafted under that philosophy weren't really the BPAs and were at a position we didn't need.

The obvious example is drafting Jordan Staal, a center, when we already had two centers and the best player available wasn't even Staal. We would have probably been far better off now with Phil Kessel, or even Toews.


I am particularly confused at why you, Gooch, would not want to draft a potentially awesome offensive-defensemen like Ellis if he is the best player available when you have been preaching about us focusing on having puckmoving defensemen.

I'm not disputing that we need wingers, badly, but if there is a better player available than the best wing, I'd rather have that player. Worst comes to worst, we can trade them for what we need, as we did with Esposito. Shero almost, almost, turned Angelo into what would have been the best winger in the East in Hossa. The gamble didn't pay off, but if we win the cup instead of Detroit, I guarantee Hossa stays. And if we didn't have Therrien, I wouldn't be surprised if he would have stayed, either.

To sum up I am fine with the BPA philosophy as long as that player is actually the best player available, and not a bust(as I think Staal will be, considering his drafting slot. I understand others disagree and think he will become that elite player that a number 2 overall should be, but I don't think he will ever get there).
So why do you think they took Staal then if he wasn't BPA and he didn't fill a need?

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody thought Staal was a bad pick at the time.. Or even a year afterwards. He certainly wasn't a reach at 2nd overall at any point before, during, or shortly after draft day.

BPA isn't just based purely on offensive skills or upside. It's everything factored in. Staal probably didn't have the highest upside of any of the players available at our selection, but he was a good combination between being a safe pick because of his complete game but also owning a good deal of upside.

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02-20-2009, 11:28 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Goalie_Bob View Post
When did I say that?

I'm referring to Ellis versus Kassian. You know, what we are talking about in this thread.
You said Green over Lucic. What exactly did you mean by that?

Ellis is supposed to be as good as Green? And you think he will be around when the Pens pick?

Lucic was a second round pick.

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02-20-2009, 11:28 PM
  #78
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Alex Grant will be the heir apparent to Gonchar and our PP quarterback for years to come.

You heard it here first. Write it down.

I'm right on it.

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02-20-2009, 11:29 PM
  #79
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10 Los Angeles Kings 59 2.1 D Oliver Eckman-Larsson

Who the heck is this guy?

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02-20-2009, 11:30 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by PenguinGuru View Post
Agreed.

Let me ask you this. If Staal never becomes a top 6 forward for the Penguins, is he a bust? By "top 6" I mean playing against opponents top lines and complimenting other skilled players on the team.
Isn't he already a top-6 forward for us? I mean, he's (probably) 3rd on our team in ice time for forwards.

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02-20-2009, 11:32 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
Isn't he already a top-6 forward for us? I mean, he's (probably) 3rd on our team in ice time for forwards.
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By "top 6" I mean playing against opponents top lines and complimenting other skilled players on the team.
Top 6 forwards play on the top 2 lines more often then the 3rd line.

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02-20-2009, 11:34 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinGuru View Post
Agreed.

Let me ask you this. If Staal never becomes a top 6 forward for the Penguins, is he a bust? By "top 6" I mean playing against opponents top lines and complimenting other skilled players on the team.
Well, if his offensive output remains the same (or worsens) forever and his overall game doesn't improve, I could see him being labeled a bust considering where he was drafted. But it's not like he hasn't shown improvements. He's just inconsistent, like most young players.

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02-20-2009, 11:34 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by PenguinGuru View Post
Top 6 forwards play on the top 2 lines more often then the 3rd line.
What's the difference what number you write next to his line? Staal is one of our 6 best and most important forwards. I'd argue he's our 3rd best forward.

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02-20-2009, 11:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
So why do you think they took Staal then if he wasn't BPA and he didn't fill a need?

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody thought Staal was a bad pick at the time.. Or even a year afterwards. He certainly wasn't a reach at 2nd overall at any point before, during, or shortly after draft day.

BPA isn't just based purely on offensive skills or upside. It's everything factored in. Staal probably didn't have the highest upside of any of the players available at our selection, but he was a good combination between being a safe pick because of his complete game but also owning a good deal of upside.

What I am saying is, I am fine with the philosophy of BPA, but if the player they pick turns out to not have been that, and doesn't fill an organizational need, then I consider them to have screwed up.

The Staal pick, I consider them to have screwed up. It doesn't matter that he was considered the BPA at the time, because he clearly wasn't actually the BPA.

See my point? Their ideas were good- to take the BPA- but Staal wasn't actually that, so their scouts and Ray Shero kinda screwed up on that one.

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02-20-2009, 11:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
What I am saying is, I am fine with the philosophy of BPA, but if the player they pick turns out to not have been that, and doesn't fill an organizational need, then I consider them to have screwed up.

The Staal pick, I consider them to have screwed up. It doesn't matter that he was considered the BPA at the time, because he clearly wasn't actually the BPA.

See my point? Their ideas were good- to take the BPA- but Staal wasn't actually that, so their scouts and Ray Shero kinda screwed up on that one.
I see. So the only good scouting staff is one with a crystal ball?

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02-20-2009, 11:44 PM
  #86
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I see. So the only good scouting staff is one with a crystal ball?
Of course not, but I do expect them to not see three really good players available, and one ok player, and somehow pick the ok player.


It's not like there was only one other good player, there. They somehow picked the worst player out of Toews, Kessel, Backstrom and Staal.

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02-20-2009, 11:44 PM
  #87
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What's the difference what number you write next to his line? Staal is one of our 6 best and most important forwards. I'd argue he's our 3rd best forward.
Maybe he is. But that doesn't change the fact that he plays more often with Cooke and Kennedy instead of Crosby or Malkin. The problem with this team is that they don't have the talent to compliment their top two forwards. Staal is a part of that problem.

What does Staal do when he has Satan and Sykora on his wings, and runs the second line? Not much. Teams send out good defense men vs. them and he disappears. When he is on the 3rd line he can hide from tougher players and surprise the opposition.

Maybe in a few years he will build that confidence. Maybe not.

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02-20-2009, 11:45 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
What I am saying is, I am fine with the philosophy of BPA, but if the player they pick turns out to not have been that, and doesn't fill an organizational need, then I consider them to have screwed up.

The Staal pick, I consider them to have screwed up. It doesn't matter that he was considered the BPA at the time, because he clearly wasn't actually the BPA.

See my point? Their ideas were good- to take the BPA- but Staal wasn't actually that, so their scouts and Ray Shero kinda screwed up on that one.
Isn't that too early to determine? What if the Pens took Backstrom, would he have been as good to Pittsburgh as he is for Washington? I say no. Backstrom wouldn't be playing with the best finisher in the game, he'd he playing with the likes of Max Talbot. Would his prodution be as high as Staal's in the same situation? Would even Kessel's or Toews? I'm not sure any of them would be put in a situation where they could succeed at the level they are at now playing behind Crosby and Malkin. What if Staal becomes a 60 point, Rod Brind'amour type player and wins a couple of Selkes? It's not out of the question.

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02-20-2009, 11:52 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by PenguinGuru View Post
Maybe he is. But that doesn't change the fact that he plays more often with Cooke and Kennedy instead of Crosby or Malkin. The problem with this team is that they don't have the talent to compliment their top two forwards. Staal is a part of that problem.

What does Staal do when he has Satan and Sykora on his wings, and runs the second line? Not much. Teams send out good defense men vs. them and he disappears. When he is on the 3rd line he can hide from tougher players and surprise the opposition.

Maybe in a few years he will build that confidence. Maybe not.
I think Staal will be in our top-6 next season, permanently. I like what he's doing this year- basically creating offense by himself, no easy goals or free-bee assists by playing with Crosby and Malkin. He's not getting much powerplay time, mostly because he hasn't earned it yet.

I agree with what you said though. When Crosby got hurt last season, Malkin stepped up. Staal's game was pretty much exactly the same. This season, Therrien put Crosby and Malkin together, basically making Staal the 2nd line center. His points still came rather infrequently. His development is a somewhat slow, gradual climb. He's not going to wake up tomorrow morning and be a 40 goal, 80 point shut-down horse of a centerman. He's going to take some more time. I think cutting his teeth and carrying his own line will better prepare him for the move to the top-6 where he'll be required to bring it every night- not just on defense but on offense as well.

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02-20-2009, 11:52 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Don'tcry4mejanhrdina View Post
Isn't that too early to determine? What if the Pens took Backstrom, would he have been as good to Pittsburgh as he is for Washington? I say no. Backstrom wouldn't be playing with the best finisher in the game, he'd he playing with the likes of Max Talbot. Would his prodution be as high as Staal's in the same situation? Would even Kessel's or Toews? I'm not sure any of them would be put in a situation where they could succeed at the level they are at now playing behind Crosby and Malkin. What if Staal becomes a 60 point, Rod Brind'amour type player and wins a couple of Selkes? It's not out of the question.
Maybe, maybe not. Ask yourself, this, though. Have you watched Backstrom, Toews and Kessel? Do you really think Staal possesses better skills than any of them? They may have better linemates, but I think you would have to be crazy to say Staal is a more talented player. Backstrom is a terrific passer and can shoot much better than Staal. He can also skate better. He does not play defense better, but thats the only area where Staal edges him.

Toews is defensively comparable to Staal and undoutbedly possesses a better offensive skill set. And Kessel is way more offensively talented than Staal, with better hands and a better shot, but is inferior defensively to Staal.

Staal is better defensively than all of those players except for Toews, who I think is his equal, if not better. Either way you can argue Staal is better at that than all of those players, but can you really tell me, with a straight face, that you think he has a skillset that is comparable offensively to any of those players? I think if you switch the situations around, Staal would still produce less than all of those guys.

Keep in mind, also, that Staal is not really the definition of a third line center. He plays 20 minutes a night for us, so it's not like he has been getting jobbed of playing time. He has also not really shown much improvement in terms of being able to crack our powerplay, which he really ought to be able to do as our powerplay is terrible.


edit: [QUOTE=Jacob;18068863]I think Staal will be in our top-6 next season, permanently. I like what he's doing this year- basically creating offense by himself, no easy goals or free-bee assists by playing with Crosby and Malkin.[quote]

You mean the same Jordan Staal who has between 3-5 empty net goals? His goal total looks far worse if you take those away. Take away Malkin and Crosby's empty netters, and they are still having good seasons.

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02-20-2009, 11:58 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
I think Staal will be in our top-6 next season, permanently. I like what he's doing this year- basically creating offense by himself, no easy goals or free-bee assists by playing with Crosby and Malkin. He's not getting much powerplay time, mostly because he hasn't earned it yet.
He hasn't shown that he is skilled enough yet. I kind of chuckled when you suggested that he hasn't earned. I think that Therrien or Bylsma would LOVE to make him a fixture on the power play. The problem is that he can't read the game at an elite level. He has raw physical skill, but he needs to learn how to play with elite talent if he is ever going to shed the potential bust rap.

I think he can accomplish that, but it's not guaranteed.

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02-21-2009, 12:02 AM
  #92
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Does anyone have any opinions on winger Scott Glennie?

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02-21-2009, 12:03 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by PenguinGuru View Post
He hasn't shown that he is skilled enough yet. I kind of chuckled when you suggested that he hasn't earned. I think that Therrien or Bylsma would LOVE to make him a fixture on the power play. The problem is that he can't read the game at an elite level. He has raw physical skill, but he needs to learn how to play with elite talent if he is ever going to shed the potential bust rap.

I think he can accomplish that, but it's not guaranteed.
So he's still a young player in the NHL?

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02-21-2009, 12:03 AM
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Keep in mind, also, that Staal is not really the definition of a third line center. He plays 20 minutes a night for us, so it's not like he has been getting jobbed of playing time. He has also not really shown much improvement in terms of being able to crack our powerplay, which he really ought to be able to do as our powerplay is terrible.
Staal is the guy that plays the front of the net, he isn't and may never be the guy that runs the powerplay from the halfboards. With Gonchar and Whitney out Staal's effectiveness on the powerplay was basically nixed- it forced him to handle the puck more and play more of a high slot position that he's neither comfortable with nor ready for. He'll get there though, I see improvement in his decision-making on the powerplay, I saw it last year too. With a healthy Gonchar and hopefully a newer, simplier powerplay next season I think is going to be the time for Staal to be a more permanent fixture on the powerplay.

Quote:
You mean the same Jordan Staal who has between 3-5 empty net goals? His goal total looks far worse if you take those away. Take away Malkin and Crosby's empty netters, and they are still having good seasons.
3-5? He has 2.

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02-21-2009, 12:05 AM
  #95
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Does anyone have any opinions on winger Scott Glennie?
http://www.mynhldraft.com/2009/NHL-D.../Scott-Glennie

I tried reading up on him but the text is too small.

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02-21-2009, 12:05 AM
  #96
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Maybe, maybe not. Ask yourself, this, though. Have you watched Backstrom, Toews and Kessel? Do you really think Staal possesses better skills than any of them? They may have better linemates, but I think you would have to be crazy to say Staal is a more talented player. Backstrom is a terrific passer and can shoot much better than Staal. He can also skate better. He does not play defense better, but thats the only area where Staal edges him.

Toews is defensively comparable to Staal and undoutbedly possesses a better offensive skill set. And Kessel is way more offensively talented than Staal, with better hands and a better shot, but is inferior defensively to Staal.
I would rather have Toews over Staal, but I'm not sure about Kessel. He would look nice on Crosby's wing, but he seems like a bit of a headcase. Kessel also seems like a guy who ends up being consistently overrated and overpaid.

Staal is a great young player with a great future ahead of him. I see him being sort of like a Jeff Carter with less offensive upside but better defense. It's just too bad he hasn't taken to playing the wing.

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02-21-2009, 12:11 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
Staal is the guy that plays the front of the net, he isn't and may never be the guy that runs the powerplay from the halfboards. With Gonchar and Whitney out Staal's effectiveness on the powerplay was basically nixed- it forced him to handle the puck more and play more of a high slot position that he's neither comfortable with nor ready for. He'll get there though, I see improvement in his decision-making on the powerplay, I saw it last year too. With a healthy Gonchar and hopefully a newer, simplier powerplay next season I think is going to be the time for Staal to be a more permanent fixture on the powerplay.


3-5? He has 2.
I thought it was more than that. Either way, I wish I had your optimism about Staal. All I see right now is a guy who is still making the same mistakes three years now into his career.

He really needs a mentor, much like Malone appeared to benefit from Leclair. Staal needs to:

-Stop trying to beat defenders 1 on 1. He can't do it. His hands aren't good enough. He just turns the puck over, over and over again.

-Learn how to shoot more accurately.

-Learn how to pass. Come on, Staal, it's three years into your career and you still can't pass worth a damn. Centers need to be able to make plays. If he can't pass, he needs to move to wing.

-Become more of a powerforward. Now here is one area where I have seen him improve, especially lately. He needs to use his big body to hit, and stop playing like he is Malkin or Crosby. He also needs to learn how to tip pucks in in front of the net and bang in rebounds.



The frustrating thing about Staal is that he has a loooooong way to go, and seems to consider himself better than he is. I don't like the cocky, arrogant way that he plays, as it does not suit his talent level.


But anyways.

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02-21-2009, 12:24 AM
  #98
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-Stop trying to beat defenders 1 on 1. He can't do it. His hands aren't good enough. He just turns the puck over, over and over again.
Disagreed. He needs to do the exact opposite of what you say and challenge opponents more one on one. He has an uncanny reach advantage and a good stride, he can at least draw penalties by forcing defenders to try and stop him.

Quote:
-Learn how to shoot more accurately.
He has a better shooting percentage than Crosby and Malkin. The Problem isn't his shot, the problem is that he doesn't get to shoot enough. That's why he needs to play with elite players, so he will get more scoring chances.
Quote:
-Learn how to pass. Come on, Staal, it's three years into your career and you still can't pass worth a damn. Centers need to be able to make plays. If he can't pass, he needs to move to wing.
It's not so much his passing ability as it is his ability to read the play. Much too often he just holds onto the puck without knowing what to do with it, or he will make extremely basic plays when you would think that he should try for something else.


Quote:
-Become more of a powerforward. Now here is one area where I have seen him improve, especially lately. He needs to use his big body to hit, and stop playing like he is Malkin or Crosby. He also needs to learn how to tip pucks in in front of the net and bang in rebounds.
I think he is rebelling against the prototypical power forward mold. He doesn't want to be just another big body around the net. Having said that, you're exactly right anyways. He needs to mature into that role and use his Andreychukian abilities around the net.

He isn't willing to pay the price around the net, which is very discouraging.

Quote:
The frustrating thing about Staal is that he has a loooooong way to go, and seems to consider himself better than he is. I don't like the cocky, arrogant way that he plays, as it does not suit his talent level.
I don't think he even realizes his potential.

You're right about the mentor thing, he needs a player on the team to help guide him and bring out his maximum potential. This team needs some veteran influence again.

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02-21-2009, 12:35 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
I thought it was more than that. Either way, I wish I had your optimism about Staal. All I see right now is a guy who is still making the same mistakes three years now into his career.

He really needs a mentor, much like Malone appeared to benefit from Leclair. Staal needs to:

-Stop trying to beat defenders 1 on 1. He can't do it. His hands aren't good enough. He just turns the puck over, over and over again.

-Learn how to shoot more accurately.

-Learn how to pass. Come on, Staal, it's three years into your career and you still can't pass worth a damn. Centers need to be able to make plays. If he can't pass, he needs to move to wing.

-Become more of a powerforward. Now here is one area where I have seen him improve, especially lately. He needs to use his big body to hit, and stop playing like he is Malkin or Crosby. He also needs to learn how to tip pucks in in front of the net and bang in rebounds.



The frustrating thing about Staal is that he has a loooooong way to go, and seems to consider himself better than he is. I don't like the cocky, arrogant way that he plays, as it does not suit his talent level.


But anyways.
Most of those are nitpicky things that can be solved with a little confidence and a more simplified game. He's not a great playmaker, that doesn't mean he needs to work on it, it just means he should take the shot more or take the puck to the net more.

He does try to deke too much, particularly when it looks like he could beat the defender if he just buries his head, cuts wide and drops his shoulder. He needs to think in a more straight-line mentality.

I think his physical play is getting better and better. He was always strong along the wall and good at taking hits, now he's dishing it out more. That power move to the front of the net was always evident, but now he's not just using his long reach to get the puck to the crease, but he's bringing his body along with him, an example of that is Talbot's goal in the last game.

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02-21-2009, 12:44 AM
  #100
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To put this tired old myth to bed, Staal IS learning to shoot more effectively. His shooting percentage on the year is 13.8%, which is higher than AO and Malkin, actually, and way above what he was shooting at last season.

The difference is, he's not and never was pegged as a sniper. For a 3rd line center, 13.8% is a shockingly high amount of accuracy.

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