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The once "Mighty" Ducks going to miss playoffs?

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Old
02-21-2009, 01:47 AM
  #51
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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I'd rather have my team win the cup 1 year then decline than be bounced in the first or second round for 10 years in a row. Burke had a window to win and he took it before it closed.

Saying Neidermayer and Selanne are too old and Pronger is on the decline just proves the point. He had a only one or two years in which his vets were playing like all stars and his young players were still cheap. If he had hoarded draft picks and cap space like everyone on HF loves they'd have no cup and still be declining.

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02-21-2009, 02:10 AM
  #52
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The Ducks may not have the talent to win it all, but they certainly should have enough to make the playoffs which is why their current performance just baffles the mind. The 2 fundamental problems with the Ducks that I see is their lack of team speed and poor/non-exisitent defensive play by their forwards. Their goaltending has also been surprisingly sub-par. Burke did a wonderful job in adding the pieces needed to win a cup, but he made some extremely bad personnel moves afterwards (e.g. his handling of the Niedermeyer debacle, signing Bertuzzi and Schneider, trading Bryz and MacDonald for nothing, signing Morrison). I still think the Ducks can make a run and get back into it, but their star players have to play like stars again and they need to demonstrate the desire and will to win which is completely absent from their game right now.

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02-21-2009, 02:20 AM
  #53
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How much did the Burke kill the team with the 07-08 season/off-season?

He signs Schneider and Bertuzzi, who both seriously cramp the Ducks' salary cap, while Niedermayer and Selanne (that looks realy weird when typed out) sit.

When it looks like Niedermayer is coming back, he has to trade away Mr. McDonald for nothing, and also has to eventually buy out Bertuzzi as a result of this, while dealing away Schneider for nothing.

He also gives Bryz away for nothin

Than the Ducks get crushed in the first round by the Dallas Stars.

Ducks fans can say what they want about the cup, but Burke's 07-08 season/offseason is what killed the Ducks more than anything else. Talk about killing assets

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02-21-2009, 02:51 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
FALL FALL FALL!!!!!!

Niedermayer back to jersey.
Yup. The more I see Anaheim lose, the more carried away I get to see Niedermayer back in the red, black and white.

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02-21-2009, 02:55 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
How much did the Burke kill the team with the 07-08 season/off-season?

He signs Schneider and Bertuzzi, who both seriously cramp the Ducks' salary cap, while Niedermayer and Selanne (that looks realy weird when typed out) sit.

When it looks like Niedermayer is coming back, he has to trade away Mr. McDonald for nothing, and also has to eventually buy out Bertuzzi as a result of this, while dealing away Schneider for nothing.

He also gives Bryz away for nothin

Than the Ducks get crushed in the first round by the Dallas Stars.

Ducks fans can say what they want about the cup, but Burke's 07-08 season/offseason is what killed the Ducks more than anything else. Talk about killing assets
This isn't directed specifically at you but these similar arguments have been prevalant in this thread and past threads.

Did I miss something, or when did Bryzgalov turn into Dominik Hasek? He was a freakin' backup goalie and looking at what more established goalies returned in trades I'm not sure what was expected.

People keep mentioning horrible mismangement and these tons of assets that got flushed away. The only real significant piece that is gone is Andy McDonald and if Doug Weight had played like he has been playing this season, they probably would have fared better.

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Old
02-21-2009, 04:34 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Bonkers View Post
When changing management, having as much flexibility for the new GM is a positive.
Having flexibility is good, potentially having to replace 9 or 10 UFAs at one time poses a little more of a challenge. Changing that much of your roster from one season to the next (because more changes could be coming if they were to trade Pronger too, since he's not in that group of UFAs) can cause chemistry problems because so many players have to get used to playing with new teams, new teammates, coaches, and potentially new roles as well. Except for Beauchemin, who's been injured for awhile, those potential UFAs are all playing on a regular basis. It's not like they're all 4th liners, extra forwards and 6th or 7th defensemen. If the Ducks were to trade Pronger, it's possible they will have an entirely new defense, or at least 4-5 new defensemen next season. That's more than just "flexibility", that could be a huge roster overhaul.

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Old
02-21-2009, 07:33 AM
  #57
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1. Most of Selanne's points comes from PP. He is still valuable in that department. However, you do not see much of Selanne in the 3rd.
Well if you really are a Finn then you'd know that Teemu is really missing a quality center. Doug Weight wasn't that and neither is Brendan Morrison (although he's been slightly better lately than at the start of the season). If Teemu played with Getzlaf and Perry on even strength, he'd have a lot more ES points.

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Old
02-21-2009, 07:57 AM
  #58
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Trading McDonald & signing Bertuzzi were terrible moves by Burke. But Ducks still have player material talented enough to make the playoffs with ease.
If they don't, it's because the coach is clueless, players unmotivated and GM remains passive.

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Old
02-21-2009, 08:41 AM
  #59
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Well if you really are a Finn then you'd know that Teemu is really missing a quality center. Doug Weight wasn't that and neither is Brendan Morrison (although he's been slightly better lately than at the start of the season). If Teemu played with Getzlaf and Perry on even strength, he'd have a lot more ES points.
Funny how people look at numbers and draw whatever conclusion they like.

Carlyle groups forwards in pairs. He had Selanne saddled with the decrepit Morrison until Teemu got injured. Teemu's points came on the power play, because that's the only time he was able to a) play with capable linemates, and b) spend anytime in the offensive zone. Since he's returned from injury, he's spent his time with Ebbett and Ryan. What do you know, he's now producing both on the pp and at even strength, and he's had 10 points in 10 games.

It doesn't matter at all, the team's still losing.However, there are plenty of reasons the Ducks are probably not going to make the playoffs. The defensive is putrid, both among defensemen (the depth isn't there at all) and amongst forwards (the "shut down line" isn't shutting anyone down). And I haven't touched upon the absolutely inadequate goaltending (Giguere gets a free pass from me, but not for much longer). Selanne's supposed "demise" isn't one of them, there is plenty of offense, and Selanne was going to be relied upon for secondary scoring and pp prowess anyhow.

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Old
02-21-2009, 08:55 AM
  #60
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They had played so many more games than other teams that their place in the standings was an incorrect indicator of how good they were (n't).

Even now they are 9th which looks like they are close but teams 10 & 11 are 1 and 2 points back while having 3 and 4 games in hand. They will be on the outside come playoff time.

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Old
02-21-2009, 09:08 AM
  #61
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Anaheim is a weird team. Unlike Pittsburgh they have depth in addition to big talent, but somehow they can't get it done. I actually expect them to get worse next season due to the uncertainty of what the team will look like next season with half their team turning UFA.

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Old
02-21-2009, 09:17 AM
  #62
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I don't get it:
Pronger
Niedermayer
Giguere
Selanne
Pahlsson
Theres a whole lot of Norris, Rocket, Conn Smyth, Hart, Vezina, and Selke trophies there.

Getzlaf
Perry
Kunitz
Morrison
A solid solid group of guys in your top 6.... including Getzlaf who is LEADING the freaking west in points.

A first round bounce last year, and looking like a playoff no-show this year???!?!

There is absolutely no excuse with that roster. Even the Oilers (look at our sad roster) are above the Ducks in the standings.

Wait.

I have the answer! The piece you have been missing is Dustin Penner. Make us a deal for this guy!

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Old
02-21-2009, 09:30 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
Anaheim is a weird team. Unlike Pittsburgh they have depth in addition to big talent, but somehow they can't get it done. I actually expect them to get worse next season due to the uncertainty of what the team will look like next season with half their team turning UFA.
That's the thing, there's no depth at D and the goaltending's been bad. If those two things are amiss, you aren't winning games.

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Old
02-21-2009, 09:41 AM
  #64
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should Carlyle be fired? Their system of thug hockey that takes stupid penalties along with poor goaltending and penalty kill is a recipe for losing. Burke fled. Will the new guy want his own stamp on the organization?

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02-21-2009, 09:57 AM
  #65
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should Carlyle be fired? Their system of thug hockey that takes stupid penalties along with poor goaltending and penalty kill is a recipe for losing. Burke fled. Will the new guy want his own stamp on the organization?
There are plenty of Ducks fans that would say, yes. I don't subscribe to it at all, but with a blow-out loss to the Thrashers and a big loss to the Kings, who knows. I maintain the problem is the players. I don't have a link, but Bob Murray lashed out pretty hard at the idea that Carlyle should be fired.


Last edited by kenabnrmal: 02-21-2009 at 10:12 AM.
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Old
02-21-2009, 10:23 AM
  #66
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It's amazing, with as well as Ryan has played and with Getzlaf emerging as a true superstar they are this bad.

- Niedermayer and Pronger while still good players aren't the game changers they were two years ago. And beyond these two they have little depth with Beauchemin out for the year and being forced to trade Schneider and O'Donnell and having no one capable of replacing them.

- Giguere has been terrible, period.

- They have little forward depth, being a Michigan guy I have always liked Ebbett and Morrison, but Ebbett has no business being on a scoring line and Mo probably isn't an NHL'er at this point.

- Corey Perry puts up points, but many nights he is totally invisible.

Brian Burke ruined the Ducks for probably 3-4 years in exchange for a Cup, I'm sure anyone would make that trade, but he really left that team a mess.

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Old
02-21-2009, 10:25 AM
  #67
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"Look upon my works, ye mighty Ducks, and despair." - Brian Burke (not really)

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Old
02-21-2009, 10:41 AM
  #68
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Brian Burke ruined the Ducks for probably 3-4 years in exchange for a Cup, I'm sure anyone would make that trade, but he really left that team a mess.
Did Burke really ruin the Ducks? This team was doing pretty good until december (I pretend that the first 7 games of the season didn't happen) and on paper the team was easily good enough to make it to play-offs.

Then something happened. Was it because of coaching? Hard to say, many claim that players started tuning out Carlyle at that point. Goaltending? It has been horrible for months now. You can't blame Burke for that. Niedermayer and Pronger have been average at best defensively the whole season, again you can't blame Burke for that.

Bryzgalov and McDonald wouldn't have solved any of the main problems which are lack of passion and lack of discipline.

But reality is that most teams go in cycles and Ducks are at the end of the cycle, about to start a new one.

Burke did trade much for the cup, and there's no Ducks fan who wouldn't make that trade. Well, I'm not sure about Eric'snuts but I'm not sure if he's a Ducks fan in the first place.

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Old
02-21-2009, 11:39 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by danaluvsthekings View Post
Having flexibility is good, potentially having to replace 9 or 10 UFAs at one time poses a little more of a challenge. Changing that much of your roster from one season to the next (because more changes could be coming if they were to trade Pronger too, since he's not in that group of UFAs) can cause chemistry problems because so many players have to get used to playing with new teams, new teammates, coaches, and potentially new roles as well. Except for Beauchemin, who's been injured for awhile, those potential UFAs are all playing on a regular basis. It's not like they're all 4th liners, extra forwards and 6th or 7th defensemen. If the Ducks were to trade Pronger, it's possible they will have an entirely new defense, or at least 4-5 new defensemen next season. That's more than just "flexibility", that could be a huge roster overhaul.
Good post. But i must disagree to an extent. Chemistry comes from the core, and they have just 2 (3) core players with upcoming UFA status, Nieds and Pahlsson +(Beauchemin).

Guys like Marchant, Morrison, R.Nieds and their 2+ million cap hits we are glad to get rid of. The rest, Moen, Montador, Huskins, Hedican are dime a dozen players who can be re-signed or replaced from within.

"not directed at Danaluvsthekings" People really should look at the Ducks contract situation before engaging in the parrot-routine.

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02-21-2009, 11:46 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
Ducks do not simply have enough talent to make the play-offs. And Burke is responsible for that fade. Bryzgalov for nothing, McDonald for Weight, played that gamble with Niedermayer who is worse than average right now, signed Selanne who is too old to compete... this list continues. He did exactly the same things in Vancouver and they just started to recover from that wise management.
How are you so stupid? Honestly...

Selanne is a steal and Niedermayer is a top 10 defenseman in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoyaho View Post
Burke leaving teams completely disastrous. What else is new.
Ryan, Getzlaf, and Perry all under 24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayne View Post
On a core Bryan Murray built. Burke merely added a couple of pieces who wanted a chance at a cup in southern California where no one gives a **** about hockey.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
1. Most of Selanne's points comes from PP. He is still valuable in that department. However, you do not see much of Selanne in the 3rd.
2. Niedermayer is expected to be the best in this league. Getting ONLY 2nd star of the month is shame. Not worth his contract.
3. Concerning those point totals. It is pretty easy to empty the farm for ready-to-contribute players. Vancouver can easily do that now - trade Hodson for Alfreadsson, for example, and you'll see immediate impact. However, it is not the way successful teams are running. That is why it is so hard to have continous success over several years.

Edit: grammar
Give up on the American dream... just stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
So much talent?

Please.

Kunitz and Ebbet are not top-6 players.

Name one good defenseman they have past underperforming Niedermayer and Pronger. One.
Kunitz is, Ebbett no so much.

Niedermayer
Pronger


Montador

x
x
x

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Old
02-21-2009, 11:51 AM
  #71
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The Ducks are doing poorly because of bad defense. Most of it is from the defensemen, who other than the top 2 above average guys all suck. But the forward aren't doing their job either (especially on PK). Goaltending also is hurting.

But ignoring that, they're still underachieving. A couple games ago, I summarized in problem in a graph. This is basically 3/4s of the games they've played:


Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
There are plenty of Ducks fans that would say, yes. I don't subscribe to it at all, but with a blow-out loss to the Thrashers and a big loss to the Kings, who knows. I maintain the problem is the players. I don't have a link, but Bob Murray lashed out pretty hard at the idea that Carlyle should be fired.
Here's your link. http://www.pe.com/sports/hockey/duck...9.487f86d.html
Quote:
But Murray said in the strongest possible terms that a coaching change isn't in the offing, even though most of the sport's pundits put Randy Carlyle squarely on the hot seat.

"I'm sick and tired of that question, and I want to be perfectly clear about that," Murray said. "When a team struggles, everyone goes after the coach. I think it's (ridiculous). We've had three pretty good years with him as coach, and he didn't become a bad coach overnight.

"If the players are waiting for him to be gone, a whole bunch of them will be gone before he is."

It's certainly legitimate to ask if Carlyle has lost the room. But veteran Teemu Selanne said the players "absolutely" are still listening to the coach, adding, "I have 100 percent trust in Randy."

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Old
02-21-2009, 11:55 AM
  #72
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The Ducks' situation is perplexing because they have a strong team on paper and a lot of those players are having good seasons: Getlaf, Ryan, Niedermayer after a bad start, Selanne when he's been healthy, Pronger has been good but not great, etc. Lack of depth on D (partly due to injuries) is an obvious problem, as is Giguere's poor play. But it seems like coaching might be the biggest issue right now. Sloppy defensive coverage, especially from forwards, is often a sign of poor coaching and/or the players tuning out the coach and just doing what they want to do. The Ducks look like a team in need of a new system.

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Old
02-21-2009, 12:00 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
Ducks do not simply have enough talent to make the play-offs. And Burke is responsible for that fade. Bryzgalov for nothing, McDonald for Weight, played that gamble with Niedermayer who is worse than average right now, signed Selanne who is too old to compete... this list continues. He did exactly the same things in Vancouver and they just started to recover from that wise management.
dont take selanne name into your mouth never more

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Old
02-21-2009, 01:00 PM
  #74
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Lets. Starting with this gem: "signed Selanne who is too old to compete..".

-42 games, 18+17=35, full season pace about 35+35=70, signed for 2.625M$.

Or maybe this: "Niedermayer who is worse than average right now".

-Niedermayer led all defensemen in scoring in January and was named the 2nd star of the month among all NHL players.


58,83,90,94,104,101

Wanna know what those numbers are? They are point totals of the Canucks during Burke's tenure. He took one of the bottom dwellers of the league and made them one of the best.

You, again brilliantly, summarized his tenure there like this: "they just started to recover from that wise management."

I'm not particularly impressed by your performance.
And yet the Cancuks never made it past the second round under Burke because he never addressed two pressing needs:

1) A legitimate #1 goalie. Throughout his tenure his #1 goalies were mediocre and couldn't do the job.
2) Depth. The Cancuks may have had one of the best lines in the league, but aside from that, they really didn't have the depth on the backend and on the bottom two lines to compete.

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02-21-2009, 01:01 PM
  #75
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So Scott Neidermeyer's indecision cost a team to let go a good player? Hmmm... That sounds familiar. At least he's still playing for the Ducks.

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