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The once "Mighty" Ducks going to miss playoffs?

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Old
02-21-2009, 12:01 PM
  #76
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The ducks won a cup with him as a top six player so..you're wrong
The Wings won a cup with Osgood....does that mean he's one of the top 10 goalies in the league?

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02-21-2009, 12:33 PM
  #77
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I don't see how the Ducks can turn their future around without trading Pronger or some of their older core. They have 4 or 5 quality young assets on the roster and not much after that because of Burke.

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02-21-2009, 12:44 PM
  #78
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Hfboards are so knee-jerk. The Ducks were cold to begin the season, got hot, now are cold again. Using logic and common-sense, one would figure they will get rolling again. I'll repeat: Hfboards - Knee-jerk central.

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02-21-2009, 12:44 PM
  #79
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This isn't directed specifically at you but these similar arguments have been prevalant in this thread and past threads.

Did I miss something, or when did Bryzgalov turn into Dominik Hasek? He was a freakin' backup goalie and looking at what more established goalies returned in trades I'm not sure what was expected.

People keep mentioning horrible mismangement and these tons of assets that got flushed away. The only real significant piece that is gone is Andy McDonald and if Doug Weight had played like he has been playing this season, they probably would have fared better.
Its the fact that several teams were looking for help between the pipes and Burke didnt get an asset in return.

Trading McDonald for Weight was another bad example of asset management which was caused by his own screwups. Had Burke been more forceful with Neids and Selanne he doesnt sign Schnieder or Bertuzzi and doesnt have to trade McDonald for Weight to clear up cap space.

Burke is overrated as a GM to a point. He was fortunate enough for one Neidermayer to already be here, he was the recipient of Pronger wanting out of EDM, Beauchemin going from waiver wire fodder to decent top 4 guy. He had the pieces in place to be able to make these trades as well. His drafting is average at best. Only a handful of guys he drafted in Vancouver turned into much of anything, which in turn left the prospect depth thin. Hes a decent GM that had the stars align.

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02-21-2009, 12:48 PM
  #80
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It's obviously all Selannes fault, the more PP goals he scores, the worse this team will do!!!

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Old
02-21-2009, 12:51 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
The Wings won a cup with Osgood....does that mean he's one of the top 10 goalies in the league?
Don't think anyone called Kunitz a top-10 winger in the league my friend.

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02-21-2009, 01:07 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Burke is overrated as a GM to a point. He was fortunate enough for one Neidermayer to already be here, he was the recipient of Pronger wanting out of EDM, Beauchemin going from waiver wire fodder to decent top 4 guy. He had the pieces in place to be able to make these trades as well. His drafting is average at best. Only a handful of guys he drafted in Vancouver turned into much of anything, which in turn left the prospect depth thin. Hes a decent GM that had the stars align.
Jesus...How many times this has to be corrected?

Burke didn't trade Rob or let him walk away which allowed him to sign Scotty. Had he traded Rob or let him go as UFA, Scotty wouldn't have signed with Anaheim.

Several teams were after Pronger, Burke was the one who gave the best deal (at the moment) for the Oilers. Burke pulled a brilliant trade, trading soft and inconsistant Lupul along with 3rd pairing d-man (plus 2 late 1st rounders) for Pronger. With hindsight, that trade was simply genious.

Burke didn't only get Beuachemin, he managed to ship Fedorov's ridiculous contract out of Anaheim.

Sure, he had the pieces available but so did many other teams. Good GMs are those who can close the deals to get the cup, bad GMs sit on top of their assets and get nothing.

Let's not forget the things Burke did:

1) revamped the whole defense from top to bottom.
2) he shipped out all the lazy floaters with bad contracts to create room for Getzlaf and Perry
3) he brought in Carlyle
4) he changed the whole attitude of the team, Ducks went from soft, unmotivated team full of floaters to league's nastiest, most physical team who bullied their way to the cup.

Show me one GM who has won the cup and hasn't made any mistakes.

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Old
02-21-2009, 01:17 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Jesus...How many times this has to be corrected?

Burke didn't trade Rob or let him walk away which allowed him to sign Scotty. Had he traded Rob or let him go as UFA, Scotty wouldn't have signed with Anaheim.

Several teams were after Pronger, Burke was the one who gave the best deal (at
the moment) for the Oilers. Burke pulled a brilliant trade, trading soft and inconsistant Lupul along with 3rd pairing d-man (plus 2 late 1st rounders) for Pronger. With hindsight, that trade was simply genious.

Burke didn't only get Beuachemin, he managed to ship Fedorov's ridiculous contract out of Anaheim.

Sure, he had the pieces available but so did many other teams. Good GMs are those who can close the deals to get the cup, bad GMs sit on top of their assets and get nothing.

Let's not forget the things Burke did:

1) revamped the whole defense from top to bottom.
2) he shipped out all the lazy floaters with bad contracts to create room for Getzlaf and Perry
3) he brought in Carlyle
4) he changed the whole attitude of the team, Ducks went from soft, unmotivated team full of floaters to league's nastiest, most physical team who bullied their way to the cup.

Show me one GM who has won the cup and hasn't made any mistakes.
Which is why I stated he was fortunate to already have had one Neidermayer there.

Yeah the trade was genius but when youre dealing with a guy who will only be willing to go to a few places it cuts down on what kind of offers a team will receive.

The reason I brought up Beauchemin was because some act like Burke knew exactly what he was getting when the guy was on and off waivers. Samrt move to get rid of Fedorovs contract yet I still remember when that deal was made everyone was shaking their head about the return. Marchant was a great checking line player and Beauchemin was a no name.

Good GMs also manage to help keep their teams competitive and dont make the sort of mistakes Burke has made that everyone tries to put spin on. The Ducks have a solid core with Getzlaf Perry and Ryan but outside of that they are going to need help in the next few years.

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Old
02-21-2009, 01:20 PM
  #84
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Burke doesn't get Scott without Rob and he doesn't get Pronger without Scott being there and having the assets to trade thanks to Murray.

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02-21-2009, 01:32 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Which is why I stated he was fortunate to already have had one Neidermayer there.
Which is why I stated that Burke made sure that Rob was part of Ducks BEFORE Scotty signed.

Burke was cleaning the house and could have traded Rob or simply not qualify him.

Burke insisted on getting Beuachemin because his staff told him to do so. Good GMs listen to their staff.

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Old
02-21-2009, 01:41 PM
  #86
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Essentially, the Ducks have an Amazing team on paper. As someone else pointed out; Selke, Norris, Hart...and then the young players that are absolutely amazing.

We still have a number 2-5 team on paper. The problem comes in the form of lack of passion and questionable coaching moves.
Burke can't be blamed for this because the moves he made in 07-08' would only affect the team in the long run. Not the very next season or two.

Unfortunately, the players and the coach are to blame for this season. After a quick re-build and maintaining the core plus a vet or two, we should be ready to go next season.

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Old
02-21-2009, 01:42 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Which is why I stated that Burke made sure that Rob was part of Ducks BEFORE Scotty signed.

Burke was cleaning the house and could have traded Rob or simply not qualify him.

Burke insisted on getting Beuachemin because his staff told him to do so. Good GMs listen to their staff.
If Burke didnt sign Rob knowing if he didnt Scott wouldnt sign there he would be a complete idiot. He made a move which any GM in the same position would do.

Did they insist on getting him because they thought he would actually turn into a decent NHL guy or did they insist because they thought he would be a good depth call up?

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02-21-2009, 01:45 PM
  #88
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Don't think anyone called Kunitz a top-10 winger in the league my friend.
It was an analogy.

The amount of forwards in the NHL is at least 360. Goalies? At least 60. Think harder about the math and you'll understand.

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02-21-2009, 02:04 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
It was an analogy.

The amount of forwards in the NHL is at least 360. Goalies? At least 60. Think harder about the math and you'll understand.
I think i'ts you who should think the math harder.

If there are 360 forwards in the league, 180 of them are top 6 forwards. Is Kunitz one of them?

If there are 60 goalies in the league, 10 of them are top10 goalies. Is Osgood one of them?

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Old
02-21-2009, 02:06 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
Think harder about the math and you'll understand.
I suggest you do the same. There are 60 top-6 left wingers in the league.

Kunitz is 36th in LW scoring.

Seriously, the Ducks won a Stanley cup with Kunitz as a 1st line winger and you are arguing he isn't a top-6 player using Chris Osgood as an analogy.

I swear, there are alot of morons on these boards.

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02-21-2009, 02:07 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
If Burke didnt sign Rob knowing if he didnt Scott wouldnt sign there he would be a complete idiot. He made a move which any GM in the same position would do.

Did they insist on getting him because they thought he would actually turn into a decent NHL guy or did they insist because they thought he would be a good depth call up?
Irrelevant. He knew that having Rob would increase the chances of getting Scotty and that's the point. Burke made sure he had a step over other GMs in signing Scotty.

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Old
02-21-2009, 02:09 PM
  #92
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Irrelevant. He knew that having Rob would increase the chances of getting Scotty and that's the point. Burke made sure he had a step over other GMs in signing Scotty.
And it wasnt a move that 29 other GMs wouldnt have made. When a guy comes out and basically says he wants to play with his brother and closer to home, even the dumbest GM could have made that signing.

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02-21-2009, 02:33 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Did Burke really ruin the Ducks? This team was doing pretty good until december (I pretend that the first 7 games of the season didn't happen) and on paper the team was easily good enough to make it to play-offs.

Then something happened. Was it because of coaching? Hard to say, many claim that players started tuning out Carlyle at that point. Goaltending? It has been horrible for months now. You can't blame Burke for that. Niedermayer and Pronger have been average at best defensively the whole season, again you can't blame Burke for that.

Bryzgalov and McDonald wouldn't have solved any of the main problems which are lack of passion and lack of discipline.

But reality is that most teams go in cycles and Ducks are at the end of the cycle, about to start a new one.

Burke did trade much for the cup, and there's no Ducks fan who wouldn't make that trade. Well, I'm not sure about Eric'snuts but I'm not sure if he's a Ducks fan in the first place.
I've been a Ducks fan since day one; I've had season tickets since day one. I've always defended Burke and will continue to do so. The Ducks have a great future ahead of them; Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Hiller, and a few promising prospects in Gardiner, Mitera, and Tangradi. There is a good chance Niedermayer and Selanne are back next year and the Ducks have cap space to make a splash this offseason.

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02-21-2009, 02:36 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
It was an analogy.

The amount of forwards in the NHL is at least 360. Goalies? At least 60. Think harder about the math and you'll understand.
You would be idiotic if you thought Kunitz was not a top 180 forward in the NHL.

So let me ask you, where does Kunitz rank on your list?

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02-21-2009, 02:38 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
And it wasnt a move that 29 other GMs wouldnt have made. When a guy comes out and basically says he wants to play with his brother and closer to home, even the dumbest GM could have made that signing.
Rob Niedermayer was going to take the one-year qualifying offer and then sign as UFA the next summer, Burke convinced him to sign long-term which was critical in signing Scotty.

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02-21-2009, 02:53 PM
  #96
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It's amazing, with as well as Ryan has played and with Getzlaf emerging as a true superstar they are this bad.

- Niedermayer and Pronger while still good players aren't the game changers they were two years ago. And beyond these two they have little depth with Beauchemin out for the year and being forced to trade Schneider and O'Donnell and having no one capable of replacing them.

- Giguere has been terrible, period.

- They have little forward depth, being a Michigan guy I have always liked Ebbett and Morrison, but Ebbett has no business being on a scoring line and Mo probably isn't an NHL'er at this point.

- Corey Perry puts up points, but many nights he is totally invisible.

Brian Burke ruined the Ducks for probably 3-4 years in exchange for a Cup, I'm sure anyone would make that trade, but he really left that team a mess.
The thing is Ebbett HAS played very well especially with Selanne and Ryan

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02-21-2009, 03:38 PM
  #97
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Show me one GM who has won the cup and hasn't made any mistakes.
http://hfboards.com/attachment.php?a...1&d=1235252240

Not many mistakes
Attached Images
File Type: jpg holland.jpg‎ (9.2 KB, 10 views)

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Old
02-21-2009, 04:03 PM
  #98
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Good post. But i must disagree to an extent. Chemistry comes from the core, and they have just 2 (3) core players with upcoming UFA status, Nieds and Pahlsson +(Beauchemin).

Guys like Marchant, Morrison, R.Nieds and their 2+ million cap hits we are glad to get rid of. The rest, Moen, Montador, Huskins, Hedican are dime a dozen players who can be re-signed or replaced from within.
I meant chemistry more in the sense of guys getting used to new linemates, defensive pairs, different roles within the hockey team opposed to locker room chemistry. Potentially changing that many players at one time, especially if quite a few players are brought in from outside the organization, that can change the feel in the locker room as well though. If the Ducks were to have 4 or 5 new defensemen next year, that's going to be an adjustment for players. New defense partners, perhaps being expected to play on the PP or PK, more minutes, in a shutdown role, things like that can take awhile for players to get used to.

If Pronger and Neidermayer both were to leave, I'd imagine someone like Getzlaf would be named captain and that could take adjusting for him as well. I think the Kings have experienced some of that this year. The team's been getting younger the last few years, but this is the first year where guys like Kopitar and Brown have really been expected to lead the team in the C and A sense and it's been an adjustment for them. New coach, different roles, it takes a bit of time for players to get used to the new expectations.

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Old
02-21-2009, 05:58 PM
  #99
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snarktacular said it best early in the season, when Beauchemin went down, the Ducks playoffs hopes went out the window.

Then trading O'Donnell for basically nothing sealed it.

Look up those 2 guys' heavy minutes in 07-08 when the Ducks won the cup. Then take away Huskins (a decent depth #5 dman) who broke a bone in his foot.

Now take a look at the current 3,4,5 and 6 defensemen the ducks are dressing.

There is your answer. All the other stuff, like Giguere's dad dying, Morrison being a blackhole, Teemu's mishap with his own skate, Bertuzzi's ridiculously bloated cap hit, Pahlsson line regressing, taking stupid offensive zone pentalties, etc etc, while may have contributed, is just dressing on the side. The bottom line, the Ducks are not having trouble scoring goals. It's the defense (and more telling the PK) that's the problem.

However, I don't expect any Ducks and Burke haters to actually read or intellectually process any of the above information, so those of you may feel free to continue to regurgitate the same tired old arguments below this post.

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