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I dont supposed anyone saw this last night

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Old
03-11-2004, 10:36 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
He swung his stick at someones head? If I'm not mistaking this it deserves at the very minimum 15 games.

Regardless of injury the new bar has been established

If he gets less than this, then the Bertuzzi decision was just political

I hope it wasn't
Why are you comparing this to Bertuzzi's incident?

Last replay I saw, Bertuzzi didn't swing his stick at anybody.

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03-11-2004, 10:47 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
You're misunderstanding what I said.

Going by what has been said here, the player in question made contact with the guy he was chasing. That is what happened.

The "never gonna happen" situation you describe here would be something happening on the ice. Therefore the referee would assess a Match Penalty because the guy with the skate is obviously trying to kill his opponent.
So turning the blade over so it points to a players head, then taking a 2 handed swing isnt an attempt to injure?

Its pretty comical you are commenting on this and defending the refs when you havent even seen the play.

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03-11-2004, 10:51 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by WHurricane16
I didn't see it, but one: Craig Adams is not a dirty player. Did it look unintentional? Well, I've haven't heard anyone in Raleigh or Tampa mentioning this, nor the NHL. You guys making ado about nothing again?
It was very delibrate, he turned over his stick to point the end of the blade at the player then did a two hander at his head, if anything, the action (not results) was worse than McSorley.

I have a feeling the NHL will ignore it as its not a high profile case. If they do, its sends out a hell of a bad message to the players.

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03-11-2004, 12:25 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
It was very delibrate, he turned over his stick to point the end of the blade at the player then did a two hander at his head, if anything, the action (not results) was worse than McSorley.
I agree, it was deliberate, no two ways about it. I'm not saying Craig Adams is a dirty player, but he certainly did a dumb, dumb thing.

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I have a feeling the NHL will ignore it as its not a high profile case. If they do, its sends out a hell of a bad message to the players.
I'm not so sure about that, they've given suspensions for other stuff this year that's gone on in "low profile" games. Like I said, I was kind of surprised that there was no mention of this in our local papers today, because usually there is some kind of comment from our coach or GM when stuff like this happens. Maybe they've given up on reporting cheap shots to the League.

-----

Let me also apologize here for my words against Van. I was wrong to vent on him, and I'm sorry for it. I should set a better example than I did here.

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03-11-2004, 12:50 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I said a referee's job is to react to what happens.....not to react to a worst-case scenario that did not happen.
That's funny, usually you say there's nothing black-and-white about the rules of hockey and that a referee must make a judgment call on every play. Now you're contradicting yourself. In an interview with Terry Gregson on a recent Lightning telecast, Gregson said he asks himself on every play, "Was that safe?" And if it wasn't, he has to call a penalty. While I don't necessarily agree 100% with that philosophy, I'm going to assume that a 25-year NHL referee knows what he's doing. And if relative newbies Chris Lee or Brad Meier (I didn't notice which one made the non-call) thought what Adams did was safe, they need to have their heads examined. The guy intentionally swung the point of his stick at another player's head. Sure, he missed, but how do you not get a penalty for that? To me, that's a match penalty, period. Absolutely no question that's an attempt to injure.

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03-11-2004, 03:05 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeminus
That's funny, usually you say there's nothing black-and-white about the rules of hockey and that a referee must make a judgment call on every play. Now you're contradicting yourself. In an interview with Terry Gregson on a recent Lightning telecast, Gregson said he asks himself on every play, "Was that safe?" And if it wasn't, he has to call a penalty. While I don't necessarily agree 100% with that philosophy, I'm going to assume that a 25-year NHL referee knows what he's doing. And if relative newbies Chris Lee or Brad Meier (I didn't notice which one made the non-call) thought what Adams did was safe, they need to have their heads examined. The guy intentionally swung the point of his stick at another player's head. Sure, he missed, but how do you not get a penalty for that? To me, that's a match penalty, period. Absolutely no question that's an attempt to injure.
No I am not contradicting myself. Gregson is right. It is his job to keep the game fair and safe. The philosophy he describes is not one that makes penalties "black and white". There is still a question to be answered on whether or not a play is safe. That question is to be answered by the referee. It is still a "grey area". What he might judge as unsafe, another referee might judge as safe.

And the referee was giving a minor penalty on the play in question here. The referee judged it to be worth a minor penalty, and it was wiped out by the goal.


No hard feelings Sotnos. I've had much worse things thrown at me on the average officiating topic here.

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Old
03-11-2004, 03:56 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
No I am not contradicting myself.
You said it's the ref's responsibility to "react to what happened" and not to what might have happened. That's black and white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Gregson is right. It is his job to keep the game fair and safe. The philosophy he describes is not one that makes penalties "black and white". There is still a question to be answered on whether or not a play is safe. That question is to be answered by the referee. It is still a "grey area". What he might judge as unsafe, another referee might judge as safe.
If you watch the replay, I am certain you'll agree with me that there is no "grey area" with respect to this play. One player clearly and intentionally turned his stick and made a slashing motion toward the head of another player. There is no other conceivable interpretation of this action than an attempt to injure. That's a match penalty.

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And the referee was giving a minor penalty on the play in question here. The referee judged it to be worth a minor penalty, and it was wiped out by the goal.
Yes, and for that, the referee is irresponsible at best -- by Gregson's standards and your own.

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03-11-2004, 04:28 PM
  #33
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I didn't have a chance to see this infraction, but there isn't a soul talking about it and this is the first that i've seen of it. I'm not going to doubt it, but does anybody have any conclusive video regarding the matter? If so, i'd love to have a look at it.

Anyways, I don't doubt that Craig Adams was capable of this. He's a bit of a loose cannon at times and has been suspended at least once at every level he has played, including leaving the bench to join in on a fight on one occasion. He also served a lengthy suspension in the AHL for a reason that i'm not quite sure of. So he does have a bit of a history. However, his infractions have usually been in a retaliatory nature instead of being the agressor, so i'm not sure if this one adds up to me. Did Taylor do anything outside the ordinary or was this just out of anger?

Also, for the person who said this was worse than the McSorely incident ...thats just ridiculous. There isn't a single reputable news channel that has touched this one yet, including ESPN and TSN.

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Old
03-11-2004, 05:42 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever
I didn't have a chance to see this infraction, but there isn't a soul talking about it and this is the first that i've seen of it. I'm not going to doubt it, but does anybody have any conclusive video regarding the matter? If so, i'd love to have a look at it.
This occurred during the 4th Tampa goal, so if you can find game highlights somewhere you might be able to see it if the quality is high enough. I have the game taped still, but that doesn't help you out much!

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However, his infractions have usually been in a retaliatory nature instead of being the agressor, so i'm not sure if this one adds up to me. Did Taylor do anything outside the ordinary or was this just out of anger?
I don't think Taylor did anything to tick him off immediately preceding this, other than get away from him. Like I said, giving Tim Taylor a breakaway would be embarrassing enough for anyone! There might have been incidents earlier, but nothing that I noticed. It seemed more like a frustration thing to me, as he was unable to catch Taylor, his hooks didn't seem to slow Taylor down, and he swung his stick at his head as a last-ditch effort to do something.

Quote:
Also, for the person who said this was worse than the McSorely incident ...thats just ridiculous. There isn't a single reputable news channel that has touched this one yet, including ESPN and TSN.
Like I also said before, this didn't even get local coverage, let alone national. Usually, if the team has a problem with a call or with a play, there is at least a mention of it in the paper the next day. I don't know if they're just ignoring the incident or what. No injury occurred whatsoever, thankfully, and unfortunately cheap stuff happens in practically every game. However, since injuries are what gets attention, it's not surprising that this didn't get picked up on.

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Old
03-11-2004, 06:41 PM
  #35
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I just saw the highlight. Looked pretty vicious to me, definitely not your ordinary 2-minute slash.

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03-11-2004, 07:17 PM
  #36
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If the league wants to crack down then they have to penalize the players for actions like this even if it does not cause a broken neck.

Bertuzzi's actions were horrible. Perhaps a little preventive maintenance would help prevent these things.

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03-11-2004, 07:23 PM
  #37
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The league much be very hard on dangerous plays, especially when the stick is involved. When doing it doesn't hurt the wallet or the team, players won't be afraid to do it.

I'm more and more starting to like the idea of an automatic suspension for all high sticks. Sure there will probably be complaining, but after a while the players will get tired of sitting out games and adopt. You can never get rid of 100% of them of course, but it has to be reduced.

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03-11-2004, 07:32 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Freudian
The league much be very hard on dangerous plays, especially when the stick is involved. When doing it doesn't hurt the wallet or the team, players won't be afraid to do it.

I'm more and more starting to like the idea of an automatic suspension for all high sticks. Sure there will probably be complaining, but after a while the players will get tired of sitting out games and adopt. You can never get rid of 100% of them of course, but it has to be reduced.

I don't know about any high stick, but I could see an automatic minimum of 1 game suspention that the ref could hand out for stick work that he finds particularily dangerous and intentional. Then it could be reviewed to see if there should be futher punishment.

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03-11-2004, 07:56 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Van
No it's not. All I did was state a fact. If you don't like the call, it's a disagreement with the referee.

Tell me the last time you saw somebody argue with a referee and get their way.

If I was defending the referee, I would say he made the right call.....and I have not said that.

You dont say he made the wrong call either

IMO he clearly blew that call big big big time i thought a 2 handed swing of a stick towards a fellow players head should be enough for being tossed. hiya i am actually dumb enough to think it is something that dont belong in this league and i will call out the refs when they blow stuff which they actually did a lot of times in that game i counted to a ton of missed interference calls and the slash towards the head was just the drop of bad calling that went on all nite

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03-11-2004, 07:57 PM
  #40
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Wish there was some way to hand out suspension to the Zebra's too if they blow calls that later gets suspended from the league

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03-11-2004, 07:59 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KungFuPenguin
I just saw the highlight. Looked pretty vicious to me, definitely not your ordinary 2-minute slash.
I agree

It looks very much like McSorley type of hit, just that the outcome was much better. High stickwork like this are no accident they are BLATANT intent to hit the head of a player and that is NOT a 2 min penalty and if it is than they need to can all those zebras that dont know what intent to injury is

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03-11-2004, 08:02 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Caniacforever
I didn't have a chance to see this infraction, but there isn't a soul talking about it and this is the first that i've seen of it. I'm not going to doubt it, but does anybody have any conclusive video regarding the matter? If so, i'd love to have a look at it.

Anyways, I don't doubt that Craig Adams was capable of this. He's a bit of a loose cannon at times and has been suspended at least once at every level he has played, including leaving the bench to join in on a fight on one occasion. He also served a lengthy suspension in the AHL for a reason that i'm not quite sure of. So he does have a bit of a history. However, his infractions have usually been in a retaliatory nature instead of being the agressor, so i'm not sure if this one adds up to me. Did Taylor do anything outside the ordinary or was this just out of anger?

Also, for the person who said this was worse than the McSorely incident ...thats just ridiculous. There isn't a single reputable news channel that has touched this one yet, including ESPN and TSN.
And that can be since there is nothign but Bertuzzi Bertuzzi Bertuzzi right now dont you think?

The style of attacking towards the head looks very much like what Mcsorley did this time the outcome was ok, and trust me if it had knocked out Taylor it would be frontpage news, since yet another violate act of nonses violence have taken out a player for a longtime. Only reason it didnt make headlines is NO BLOOD = No news

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Old
03-11-2004, 08:02 PM
  #43
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a touch ot but did anyone see the Bryan Marchment play against Florida on Tuesday night? I heard he broke the players collarbone.

 
Old
03-11-2004, 08:42 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caniacforever
I didn't have a chance to see this infraction, but there isn't a soul talking about it and this is the first that i've seen of it. I'm not going to doubt it, but does anybody have any conclusive video regarding the matter? If so, i'd love to have a look at it.

Anyways, I don't doubt that Craig Adams was capable of this. He's a bit of a loose cannon at times and has been suspended at least once at every level he has played, including leaving the bench to join in on a fight on one occasion. He also served a lengthy suspension in the AHL for a reason that i'm not quite sure of. So he does have a bit of a history. However, his infractions have usually been in a retaliatory nature instead of being the agressor, so i'm not sure if this one adds up to me. Did Taylor do anything outside the ordinary or was this just out of anger?

Also, for the person who said this was worse than the McSorely incident ...thats just ridiculous. There isn't a single reputable news channel that has touched this one yet, including ESPN and TSN.
So you havent seen it and are calling me rediculous?

The McSorely slash just caught Brashear in the right place to knock him out, this slash was far more vicious and premeditated so it is worse, dont call me rediculous without seeing it for yourself.

It doesnt really do a lot for your credibility.

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03-11-2004, 08:51 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
So you havent seen it and are calling me rediculous?

The McSorely slash just caught Brashear in the right place to knock him out, this slash was far more vicious and premeditated so it is worse, dont call me rediculous without seeing it for yourself.

It doesnt really do a lot for your credibility.
I wasn't calling you ridiculous, I was calling the idea of it ridiculous. For starters.

Also, I think the fact that I haven't seen it speaks volumes for the severity of the incident. Had it been as bad as McSorely, even without the results, it would have been all over the place due to the media's dogpile mentality when it comes to horrible events. With all this Bertuzzi nonsense, it would have been a perfect follow up story. I haven't seen it.

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Old
03-11-2004, 09:02 PM
  #46
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Well everyone who has see it knows it was a delibrate 2 handed swing at a players head, it is indisputable.

Maybe because it wasnt a national game that it hasnt been reported.
The intent and action was worse than McSorely. Because the Bolts player wasnt injured it will be let go. The wrong way to go about it IMO.

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03-11-2004, 09:13 PM
  #47
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I haven't seen this slash attempt yet, but from what I've heard, it looked very vicious. It won't get any media coverage, though, mainly because A)no one was hurt and B)it's the Bolts and Canes, not the Nucks and Avs.

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03-12-2004, 12:38 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeminus
You said it's the ref's responsibility to "react to what happened" and not to what might have happened. That's black and white.
No it is not.

A referee's reaction to what he sees is him using his judgment to decide if the play was safe, worth a penalty, and how severe of a penalty if he decides to call one.

A "black and white" penalty is one he has no choice but to call. For example: A goaltender shooting the puck over the glass must be assessed a Delay Of Game penalty. THAT is "black and white".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Swedish Bolt Fan
Wish there was some way to hand out suspension to the Zebra's too if they blow calls that later gets suspended from the league
Such a system could never work. If an official is suspended, the only realistic option would be to replace the suspended official with somebody from the AHL for the duration of the suspension....And one of the biggest complaints about the 2-referee system is the lack of experience that is currently on the officials roster.

Officials get fined if they screw up bad enough.

I guarantee that whichever referee called Brashear for "High Sticking" tonight was torn a new ***hole by his supervisor after the game, and Andy Van Hellemond will fine him as well.

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03-12-2004, 12:58 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Van
I guarantee that whichever referee called Brashear for "High Sticking" tonight was torn a new ***hole by his supervisor after the game, and Andy Van Hellemond will fine him as well.
I've never reffed a hockey game before, so I don't protest to know what its like to be in their shoes, but the "high sticking" call on Brashear is one that is hard to miss in my opinion.

What I question is if he was in good enough position to see that the Numminen was high sticked, how could he not see that Brashear never lifted his stick off the ice? This was no even a close, questionable call - it was very blatant.

I'm not trying to pick at you, Van; I'm just dumbfounded at how the officials flubbed that call so much. Hey, I guess we all make mistakes.

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03-12-2004, 02:09 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksflytogether
I haven't seen this slash attempt yet, but from what I've heard, it looked very vicious. It won't get any media coverage, though, mainly because A)no one was hurt and B)it's the Bolts and Canes, not the Nucks and Avs.
I would think it would get plenty of attention anyway. The more sensationalist part of the media would love to run a "IT HAPPENED AGAIN! SOMEONE STOP THE BRUTALITY THAT IS HOCKEY!" story.

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