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The Official we don't need Briere thread

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Old
02-24-2009, 03:48 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I'm sure Jester will be here shortly, lol.
Yeah honestly, I expected him to come up with something better, but after heming and hawing about how scoring has gone up (proved him wrong again with our team rank in those defensive categories), he's nowhere to be found.

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Old
02-24-2009, 04:29 PM
  #127
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All the Briere hate on here is disgusting. All what the guy does is produce. What's wrong with having a purely offensively talented player on the roster? People make such a big deal about defensive play, but Briere isn't paid to be a stellar two way player. He's being paid because he's offensively gifted and his offensive play (when healthy) is certainly worth every penny he gets.

I sometimes think people are happy with nothing but grinders and muckers and that the moment a pure skill player gets to Philadelphia, the hate he receives is just out of this world. I'll take Briere on my team any day, defensive deficiencies or not.....

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02-24-2009, 05:37 PM
  #128
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The Flyers dont NEED him, but he is a damn good luxury to have

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:30 PM
  #129
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I rarely find myself aligned with Jester, but these numbers that he cited do not lie and cannot be spun:

Quote:
Richards? +14
Carter? +6
Briere? -22
A span that wide over an entire season cannot be poopooed by talk of bounces or flukes. Those numbers say something.

I don't believe they say "the Flyers are better off without Briere", but they do say something and it ain't flattering.

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:42 PM
  #130
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Again, I'll keep the league leading scorer in the post season since the lockout.

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:47 PM
  #131
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I am *this* close to starting a positive thread for Danny lol. The majority of fans like him; just look at all the Briere jerseys floating around! But you wouldn't be able to tell reading all the negative crap about him on this crazy website. (not that HE gives a **** hah)

But if I did start the thread, it would likely turn into another endless debate b/w Jester and the gang.

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02-24-2009, 10:54 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Miss Mess View Post
I am *this* close to starting a positive thread for Danny lol. The majority of fans like him; just look at all the Briere jerseys floating around! But you wouldn't be able to tell reading all the negative crap about him on this crazy website. (not that HE gives a **** hah)

But if I did start the thread, it would likely turn into another endless debate b/w Jester and the gang.
Do it, make it a poll...and then those who voted for one over the other can shove it in the faces of the others.

Here's how I would make the options...
  • Yes, he makes us a better team. Who cares that were tight to the cap ceiling.
  • No, we don't need him. His offensive production is wiped out by his defensive failures
  • If it weren't for the cap and Richard and Carter emerging, I'd like him around...but his cap penalty would be better suited on defense/goaltending


And then ask this thread to be merged in the poll.

Of course, make the votes public.

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Old
02-24-2009, 11:32 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I rarely find myself aligned with Jester, but these numbers that he cited do not lie and cannot be spun:

A span that wide over an entire season cannot be poopooed by talk of bounces or flukes. Those numbers say something.

I don't believe they say "the Flyers are better off without Briere", but they do say something and it ain't flattering.
Well said.

Danny has something to offer this team and any team - goal production. He's not Glen Metropolit with a $6.5M cap hit. But, he is a liability on the ice defensively and with the offensive emergence of Carter and Richards, I'd rather spend that money on J-Bo or a top-notch goalie.

I'm not hating on him, it's just how I feel. I've actually come to like the little smurf and his ability to score goals - he's a player we don't often see in Philly. But I wouldn't miss him if he was gone, knowing that money was plugging some other holes in the roster. I don't think the team would suffer from his permanent absence, either.

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Old
02-24-2009, 11:32 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by sgupca View Post
Briere is lighting and exciting to watch. Unless you can land someone like Jay-bo or Kaberle or Pronger you don't trade him.

For the record i'd put him back on the top line with Richards and Gagne

lines of:

Gagne - Richards - Briere
Hartnell - Carter - Lupul
Upshall - Metro - Knuble
how about gags -briere -giroux...hartnell-carter -lupul... richards-knuble-jvr

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Old
02-25-2009, 07:27 AM
  #135
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This team is defensively challenged.. soft goalies and Defense that backs up and never steps up for hit. we don't need another defensive liability we score goals our shots against and Defense is problem

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Old
02-25-2009, 07:32 AM
  #136
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I am *this* close to starting a positive thread for Danny lol. The majority of fans like him; just look at all the Briere jerseys floating around! But you wouldn't be able to tell reading all the negative crap about him on this crazy website.

Majority of flyers fans drink that crap coatsy and JJ spill about how great our little girls is, girls buy jerseys because guy is cute.

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Old
02-25-2009, 08:45 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Well said.

Danny has something to offer this team and any team - goal production. He's not Glen Metropolit with a $6.5M cap hit. But, he is a liability on the ice defensively and with the offensive emergence of Carter and Richards, I'd rather spend that money on J-Bo or a top-notch goalie.

I'm not hating on him, it's just how I feel. I've actually come to like the little smurf and his ability to score goals - he's a player we don't often see in Philly. But I wouldn't miss him if he was gone, knowing that money was plugging some other holes in the roster. I don't think the team would suffer from his permanent absence, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC
I rarely find myself aligned with Jester, but these numbers that he cited do not lie and cannot be spun:

Quote:
Richards? +14
Carter? +6
Briere? -22
A span that wide over an entire season cannot be poopooed by talk of bounces or flukes. Those numbers say something.

I don't believe they say "the Flyers are better off without Briere", but they do say something and it ain't flattering.
Look at the ****ing stats.

I am really getting tired of morons just using +/- as the end-all be-all of determining a hockey player's value.

The team has not gotten better defensively. Everything bears that out, the stats I look at and the games I watch. Richie and Carter were + players last year because they're elite offensive players (something that JXC denies in the other thread which is funny).

Also, as I've pointed out numerous times, once Briere got on a line with some chemistry (Hartnell-Briere-Prospal), he absolutely shredded at the end of the year and had a positive rating, but he was stuck most of the time playing with a lazy Lupul, Knuble, and Upshall.

Everyone loves to talk about how Briere kills this team defensively, but he's gone out of the lineup, we've added an elite 2-way winger, and there's still absolutely no change.

I think it's time for people to wake up and realize what the problem with this team is.

EDIT: I should also add that I don't totally trust our offense without Briere, I think they're still strong, but you're basically relying on Carter or Richards to carry it because Giroux is still a bit young and the other guys don't really generate offense, they simply add to the offense and try to convert chances. We also don't have a single playmaking winger on our top-2 lines.

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Old
02-25-2009, 09:54 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Richie and Carter were + players last year because they're elite offensive players (something that JXC denies in the other thread which is funny).
I have never said a thing about them where offense is concerned. If you meant "elite defensive players", and you think Carter is one, and you saw Fedotenko's second goal the other night and Ovechkin's goal last night, then you have serious Power of Observation issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Everyone loves to talk about how Briere kills this team defensively, but he's gone out of the lineup, we've added an elite 2-way winger, and there's still absolutely no change.
I'm not sure how a comparision of this year versus last is germane here. Players change, teams change = too many variables.

The germane stat is Richards versus Briere over the full year last year, and the chasm is canyonesque.


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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
but he was stuck most of the time playing with a lazy Lupul, Knuble, and Upshall.
Hmmm.

Let's look at "the ****ing stats", shall we?

Lupul +2
Upshall +2
Knuble -3
Briere -22

Looks like THEY were stuck with HIM, not vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I think it's time for people to wake up and realize what the problem with this team is.
It's totally system!

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:00 AM
  #139
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So Fly, you're saying Briere is a good defensive player? Because I said sweet ****-all about +/-.

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:12 AM
  #140
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Yes JXC, the guy who said Richards was nearly a bust and judges Carter on one play. Good analysis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
So Fly, you're saying Briere is a good defensive player? Because I said sweet ****-all about +/-.
I've never said that, but you were agreeing with JXC's post where he uses +/- to decide that apparently we don't need Briere.

I mean, Carter and Richards are extremely unique in that they don't need special chemistry with their linemates to generate offense.

A lot of guys in this league do need that, Briere does, and he didn't get it last year.

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02-25-2009, 10:14 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I've never said that, but you were agreeing with JXC's post where he uses +/- to decide that apparently we don't need Briere.

I mean, Carter and Richards are extremely unique in that they don't need special chemistry with their linemates to generate offense.

A lot of guys in this league do need that, Briere does, and he didn't get it last year.
I'm not a big fan of +/- but there's something to be said for Briere's last season. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

I don't understand why it's a big deal to you. He's not perfect and you know it.

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:19 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I'm not a big fan of +/- but there's something to be said for Briere's last season. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

I don't understand why it's a big deal to you. He's not perfect and you know it.
My problem is the people saying, "Briere comes back and our defense gets worse" when I've just proven that our defense reaches the same level of suckitude whether or not Briere is in the lineup.

Obviously he's not perfect, but I think he adds a lot of dynamism to our offense that I'm not sure if we have right now.

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:24 AM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah honestly, I expected him to come up with something better, but after heming and hawing about how scoring has gone up (proved him wrong again with our team rank in those defensive categories), he's nowhere to be found.
I didn't come back, because it isn't worth it, because you don't seek to contextualize your numbers.

Danny Briere was a horrendous defensive player for this club. You accept this as a fact.

What you're arguing is that we're allowing the same number of even strength goals against the relative competition. It disproved my belief that we might have improved slightly against the group--though, not that we may have improved against the mean.

Questions your numbers do not answer, but should be pointedly responded to in justifying your position.

Our save percentage has dropped from .913 to .910. If our SVPCT had remained the same, our GAA would be 2.77, instead of 2.86. That .09 is 5.22 goals this season...completely independent of whether Briere is or is not out there.

Our defense is vastly altered from last year. We played an 18 y/o rookie for a good chunk of the season (-6). We put Andreas Nodl out there for 29 games...he was -11 (you can take up your *****ing with GKJ about how stupid his defensive comment was there).

Braydon Coburn hasn't been as good defensively as last year.

Matt Carle has his problems defensively.

Andrew Alberts has his problems defensively.

Randy Jones has his problems defensively.

We've been about the same defensively as a team, but a better offensive team this year. Is it not at all possible that our defense as a team is simply a little bit weaker this season? Our goaltending hasn't been as good, and our defenseman are, on the whole, less defensively inclined. You can say what you want about guys like Smith and Hatcher, but they were, in fact, capable of holding their own in the defensive zone...they just struggled in the transition game. They played SAFE defense, but could provide very little going forward (which this group is better at providing).

However, the real problem in making analytical statements about an individual player using team-wide statistics is that you need to context the crap out of them. Danny Briere is a BAD defensive player. Put him on the ice and he will be a bad defensive player and your team defense will regress. Your statistics do not speak to that question at all.

They do not speak to the fact that Andrew Alberts, Ossi Vaananen, Matt Carle, Darrol Powe, Arron Asham, Steve Eminger, Glen Metropolit, Josh Gratton, Jonathan Kalinski, Jared Ross, Luca Sbisa, and Andreas Nodl did not play for the Flyers last season.

Yes, you proved me wrong about our team rank. But your argument about Briere using team statistics is terribly flawed, weak, and specious. It is using a statistic built of the efforts, both offensively and defensively, of 19 players on the ice to make a commentary about 1 player on the ice. Perhaps if the other 18 hadn't changed at all you would be able to make that argument, but that's not the case....now is it?

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:28 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
My problem is the people saying, "Briere comes back and our defense gets worse" when I've just proven that our defense reaches the same level of suckitude whether or not Briere is in the lineup.

Obviously he's not perfect, but I think he adds a lot of dynamism to our offense that I'm not sure if we have right now.
Can anyone really point out 5 obvious defensive failures by Danny B that cost them game after game? Enough to nullify all the good he's done on the offensive end?

Everyone needs to calm down and just accept the fact that he's an offensive fwd first and that's his role. Just like Upshall's role is to speed down the ice like a mad man and fall.

Danny B is the key to this teams PP consistency. In the playoffs there isn't a more important forward on the Flyers with the man advantage than Danny B. Face it, he was a big reason they had success in 2 series where the Flyers were underdogs.

Stop the hate.

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02-25-2009, 10:31 AM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
My problem is the people saying, "Briere comes back and our defense gets worse" when I've just proven that our defense reaches the same level of suckitude whether or not Briere is in the lineup.

Obviously he's not perfect, but I think he adds a lot of dynamism to our offense that I'm not sure if we have right now.
As a whole? Probably not. The average probably won't move a lot. But as an individual (and therefore his line when he's on the ice), Briere is more likely to have goals scored on him at even strength than the other centres on this team. I believe the stats support that and my observations support that.

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:31 AM
  #146
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Danny B is the key to this teams PP consistency.

He adds another dimension to it, but he's not the key. He's been out practically all year and were chugging along on the PP.

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02-25-2009, 10:31 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Crescent Street View Post
Can anyone really point out 5 obvious defensive failures by Danny B that cost them game after game? Enough to nullify all the good he's done on the offensive end?
Go watch the beginning of the season, he had a slew egregious "lack of effort" defensive plays in the first few games alone. Can specifically remember him just watching his man go to the back post against SJ.

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02-25-2009, 10:33 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I didn't come back, because it isn't worth it, because you don't seek to contextualize your numbers.

Danny Briere was a horrendous defensive player for this club. You accept this as a fact.

What you're arguing is that we're allowing the same number of even strength goals against the relative competition. It disproved my belief that we might have improved slightly against the group--though, not that we may have improved against the mean.

Questions your numbers do not answer, but should be pointedly responded to in justifying your position.

Our save percentage has dropped from .913 to .910. If our SVPCT had remained the same, our GAA would be 2.77, instead of 2.86. That .09 is 5.22 goals this season...completely independent of whether Briere is or is not out there.

Our defense is vastly altered from last year. We played an 18 y/o rookie for a good chunk of the season (-6). We put Andreas Nodl out there for 29 games...he was -11 (you can take up your *****ing with GKJ about how stupid his defensive comment was there).

Braydon Coburn hasn't been as good defensively as last year.

Matt Carle has his problems defensively.

Andrew Alberts has his problems defensively.

Randy Jones has his problems defensively.

We've been about the same defensively as a team, but a better offensive team this year. Is it not at all possible that our defense as a team is simply a little bit weaker this season? Our goaltending hasn't been as good, and our defenseman are, on the whole, less defensively inclined. You can say what you want about guys like Smith and Hatcher, but they were, in fact, capable of holding their own in the defensive zone...they just struggled in the transition game. They played SAFE defense, but could provide very little going forward (which this group is better at providing).

However, the real problem in making analytical statements about an individual player using team-wide statistics is that you need to context the crap out of them. Danny Briere is a BAD defensive player. Put him on the ice and he will be a bad defensive player and your team defense will regress. Your statistics do not speak to that question at all.

They do not speak to the fact that Andrew Alberts, Ossi Vaananen, Matt Carle, Darrol Powe, Arron Asham, Steve Eminger, Glen Metropolit, Josh Gratton, Jonathan Kalinski, Jared Ross, Luca Sbisa, and Andreas Nodl did not play for the Flyers last season.

Yes, you proved me wrong about our team rank. But your argument about Briere using team statistics is terribly flawed, weak, and specious. It is using a statistic built of the efforts, both offensively and defensively, of 19 players on the ice to make a commentary about 1 player on the ice. Perhaps if the other 18 hadn't changed at all you would be able to make that argument, but that's not the case....now is it?
I <3 Stats

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:35 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
As a whole? Probably not. The average probably won't move a lot. But as an individual (and therefore his line when he's on the ice), Briere is more likely to have goals scored on him at even strength than the other centres on this team. I believe the stats support that and my observations support that.
Well, let us be clear. Briere is a positive player when you add in his points on the PP. So, technically he's more productive than what he gives up. The problem would be that with our PP operating quite effectively to this point in the season, do we really need to accept the problems to get an effective PP?

'Course, it's all moot. He's not going anywhere.

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02-25-2009, 10:37 AM
  #150
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He adds another dimension to it, but he's not the key. He's been out practically all year and were chugging along on the PP.
There's a big problem when you are 1st in PP conversion at home, and 30th away. We looked miserable in the PP last night. We NEEDED Briere in our PP last night.

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