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Old
02-24-2009, 10:34 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I stick by my original statement: **** Drury. And **** the rest of the players if they were struggling because they "weren't having fun" or some other totally ******** excuse. There have been fantastic teams--dynasties in fact--throughout every major professional sport that played styles that were "boring" or "not fun" for the players.

You know what makes the game a lot more fun? WINNING. If the reason our players have been sucking ass is that they weren't happy in Renney's system, then **** all of them. They're professional athletes for Christ's sake. I'm plenty sympathetic to people being unhappy with their job, but you still do your ******* job. I've had jobs before where I was unhappy, but I didn't mail it in. You keep working as hard as possible because you have some modicum of pride and respect for the job that you do.

**** Chris Drury, **** anyone else on our team that places the blame on anyone but themselves. Rarely do I become angered by players on my favorite teams, but ****, this is nonsense.
i dont think it has to do with necessarily "being unhappy" with the system, as much as the system not being suited to the players. If the players arent suited for it, it doesnt matter how hard they try, its not going to work as well as it should. And it's the coach's job to realize that and adjust (yes, a lot of this is sather's fault as well for not foreseeing this, esp as a former coach). I dont deny what a great, classy guy Tom Renney is. But this was necessary. We almost definitely will not contend for a cup this year obviously. But look if the option is try to get rid of half the team (near impossible) or make one change that might be able to get the most out of what we have, it's the right choice.

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02-24-2009, 10:39 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I stick by my original statement: **** Drury. And **** the rest of the players if they were struggling because they "weren't having fun" or some other totally ******** excuse. There have been fantastic teams--dynasties in fact--throughout every major professional sport that played styles that were "boring" or "not fun" for the players.

You know what makes the game a lot more fun? WINNING. If the reason our players have been sucking ass is that they weren't happy in Renney's system, then **** all of them. They're professional athletes for Christ's sake. I'm plenty sympathetic to people being unhappy with their job, but you still do your ******* job. I've had jobs before where I was unhappy, but I didn't mail it in. You keep working as hard as possible because you have some modicum of pride and respect for the job that you do.

**** Chris Drury, **** anyone else on our team that places the blame on anyone but themselves. Rarely do I become angered by players on my favorite teams, but ****, this is nonsense.

How about this for something to think of? Did you ever think that the reason why the guys "weren't having fun anymore" comes down to money? We have alot of guys heading into free agency. Free agents get judged on stats compared to other guys with similar stats, and are generally awarded similar contracts. How do you think those stats look when your coach preaches defense and the virtue of winning games 2-1? Has a non goaltender ever been rewarded with a rich free agent deal based on his team's win percentage? I'm not claiming it to be truth by any stretch, but you never know what happens behind the scenes when a bunch of guys get their agents in their ears, agents that are paid based on a percentage of the overall value of their players contracts. There is some kind of iceberg we have here, in that we are only seeing a very small portion of the surface of what really went on. The real danger lurks below the surface. That's what will sink your boat.

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02-24-2009, 10:41 AM
  #53
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Sml...

I think he takes the high road and doesn't blantantly state that the previous coach's methods had somehow, all of the sudden, become ineffective. A captain often is judged on what he says, and what he says under pressure, because if he's not saying the right things to the public when interviewed, there's a decent chance he's not saying the right things to the players during the game, if he's saying anything. Jeter knows what to say. Mess did know what to say. Leetch, Graves and Richter knew what to say. I think it's silly for a 10 year vet to say the team needed something, other than them playing harder, to get them to play better. If his team doesn't like the fact that the captain called out his team to play harder, than this really is more of a collection of players and not really a team then. If 75% came to him and said they don't like Renney, then his answer each time should be, he's the coach and in the end you need to honor the sweater - he put this team back on the map with his ways and all he wants to do is win, which is all we should want also. So go out and play hard and the results should be positive.

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02-24-2009, 10:47 AM
  #54
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money?

maybe that's the problem. I think you can point to a heck of a lot of games in which it wasn't the system that wasn't working, but it was the players who just weren't playing hard enough. Why did this team seem to be able to score through December, and why did they seem to be able to play hard through December, and then it seemed to fade?

But I'm not sure money was the problem since the guys who should be leading this team, Henke, Rozsival, Drury, Gomez, Naslund and Redden are all locked up to fat contracts. Mara, a guy who is playing for a contract, is visibly playing hard every night and is noticed for that fact. Cally is visibly playing hard every night and has been rewarded with more offensive opportunties of which he's taken advantage.

Perhaps Renney should've sat Gomez indefinitely when he wasn't playing well. I'm sure he wouldn't have sulked and resented the coach even more. Perhaps Drury deserved to stay home when the Rangers went on a road trip. I'm sure that would've made him happy. Perhaps Redden would've liked riding buses with 22 years olds across the Northeast, since that's where he really belonged at times.

I can criticize Renney with the best of them, trust me, but certain things I really cannot defend, and that's been the effort.

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02-24-2009, 10:49 AM
  #55
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I'm not going to lose too much sleep over this. Coaches know when they get hired that there's a pretty good chance that they are going to get fired. 5 of the 30 coaches in the league this season have been fired already. They know the deal, it's part of the job. Look around the league, who's really been around that long? Lindy Ruff? MacTavish? Lemaire? Okay, the rest haven't been in their jobs that long. You get about a five year window unless you're great. Then no matter what you say or what great "system" you have, the players get tired of you and need a shake up. I can thin of worse things than getting paid a ton of money to NOT have to come to work every day. Renney is a good coach and he'll find another job. If he wasn't okay with this, he wouldn't have decided to become a coach.

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02-24-2009, 10:49 AM
  #56
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allstar...

perhaps the system didn't suit the players...perhaps the mix of players, however, isn't there to better suit everyone. Perhaps this team is missing a top six winger. Perhaps it's missing a real PP point guy who can also bring the puck up ice. Maybe the system is in place to take into consideration the obvious holes in the lineup that relied on aging vets bouncing back from a couple seasons of mediocrity and youth that was imperfect from the start to produce more than they're capabale of producing.

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:51 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
maybe that's the problem. I think you can point to a heck of a lot of games in which it wasn't the system that wasn't working, but it was the players who just weren't playing hard enough. Why did this team seem to be able to score through December, and why did they seem to be able to play hard through December, and then it seemed to fade?

But I'm not sure money was the problem since the guys who should be leading this team, Henke, Rozsival, Drury, Gomez, Naslund and Redden are all locked up to fat contracts. Mara, a guy who is playing for a contract, is visibly playing hard every night and is noticed for that fact. Cally is visibly playing hard every night and has been rewarded with more offensive opportunties of which he's taken advantage.

Perhaps Renney should've sat Gomez indefinitely when he wasn't playing well. I'm sure he wouldn't have sulked and resented the coach even more. Perhaps Drury deserved to stay home when the Rangers went on a road trip. I'm sure that would've made him happy. Perhaps Redden would've liked riding buses with 22 years olds across the Northeast, since that's where he really belonged at times.

I can criticize Renney with the best of them, trust me, but certain things I really cannot defend, and that's been the effort.
Drury, Gomez werent sitting b/c even if they werent playing up to their standards they were still better than anything we could replace them with.

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02-24-2009, 10:53 AM
  #58
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I don't disagree with that, SML...coaches don't have long lives in this league. And I can't say that I didn't think this was a possibility, because you can't fire the players. I'm just upset at the circumstances surrounding the firing. I don't like the "team" Sather put together; don't like the contracts he's given out over the last couple seasons, and have not been enamored with the effort over the last couple months when this team really showed little backbone. I can deal with the firing. I don't sit here and say "poor Tom". I can deal with Torts, who I wanted as coach many years ago before Ron Low. I'm just expressing displeasure for some of the circumstances surrounding that firing.

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02-24-2009, 10:55 AM
  #59
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so what you're saying, allstar, is that Sather is to blame here for not putting together a team that had depth and thus an ability for Renney to bench any player at any time if they're not playing within the system or they're out there dogging it.

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02-24-2009, 10:58 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SML View Post
How about this for something to think of? Did you ever think that the reason why the guys "weren't having fun anymore" comes down to money? We have alot of guys heading into free agency. Free agents get judged on stats compared to other guys with similar stats, and are generally awarded similar contracts. How do you think those stats look when your coach preaches defense and the virtue of winning games 2-1? Has a non goaltender ever been rewarded with a rich free agent deal based on his team's win percentage? I'm not claiming it to be truth by any stretch, but you never know what happens behind the scenes when a bunch of guys get their agents in their ears, agents that are paid based on a percentage of the overall value of their players contracts. There is some kind of iceberg we have here, in that we are only seeing a very small portion of the surface of what really went on. The real danger lurks below the surface. That's what will sink your boat.
Considering our most underachieving players happen to be the same ones with long-term contracts for big money, no, I didn't/don't think that's the reason.

Look, I've defended these players all year in the face of criticisms like "they don't care" or "they're heartless", and now it's becoming readily apparent to me that I was wrong--a lot of them don't seem to care, and have no heart. It makes me feel foolish to have advocated for a bunch of ******* for as long as I did.

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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
i dont think it has to do with necessarily "being unhappy" with the system, as much as the system not being suited to the players. If the players arent suited for it, it doesnt matter how hard they try, its not going to work as well as it should. And it's the coach's job to realize that and adjust (yes, a lot of this is sather's fault as well for not foreseeing this, esp as a former coach). I dont deny what a great, classy guy Tom Renney is. But this was necessary. We almost definitely will not contend for a cup this year obviously. But look if the option is try to get rid of half the team (near impossible) or make one change that might be able to get the most out of what we have, it's the right choice.
My anger and resentment in this thread is separate from my disappointment that Renney was let go. As I've stated numerous times in other threads, I knew this move was inevitable, accepted it and in some respects even acknowledged it may be necessary.

And I do understand that the players we have might not be the best fit for Tom Renney's system, but that is absolutely no excuse for lazy play, lack of effort and seemingly waning passion.

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02-24-2009, 11:03 AM
  #61
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I don't think much of Drury as a captain and I agree with the assessment that's he's a good player when he's on a good team and a mediocre one when he's not. He shouldn't be the go to guy and he's in way over his head now. His comments basically are as uninspired as the team. The problem really goes back to Slats. Signing guys to long term and very lucrative contracts that they don't deserve. You make those mistakes in this new cap era and you pay the price. One mistake is bad enough--we have three. They hamper our ability to correct anything. Renney is the fall guy now. Tortorella to the rescue--maybe it works--maybe it doesn't. Personally I don't think we have enough talent one way or the other. So I'm a skeptic.

By the way Pittsburgh beat us in last years playoffs mainly on talent, size and aggressiveness and deserved to win. It wasn't the coaching.

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02-24-2009, 11:10 AM
  #62
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There are many facets to coaching and one of them is being able to inspire your guys to get out there and give 100%. If any of you can tell me that over the past 15 games Renney did just that, then you're full of ****. Say all you want about the lack of talent, these losses were less about talent and more about a failure to battle. Seriously, how many guys were going out there every night and trying to win battles? I'm talking about down low, along the half-boards, everywhere.

You can point the fingers at the captain, at Sather, at Dolan, or whoever, but at the end of the day there was one guy in charge of getting the Rangers wins each night. He failed to do his job and he was held accountable. Just because other people deserve blame as much as (if not more than) Renney doesn't mean that Renney himself didn't deserve to get canned.

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02-24-2009, 11:18 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I stick by my original statement: **** Drury. And **** the rest of the players if they were struggling because they "weren't having fun" or some other totally ******** excuse. There have been fantastic teams--dynasties in fact--throughout every major professional sport that played styles that were "boring" or "not fun" for the players.

You know what makes the game a lot more fun? WINNING. If the reason our players have been sucking ass is that they weren't happy in Renney's system, then **** all of them. They're professional athletes for Christ's sake. I'm plenty sympathetic to people being unhappy with their job, but you still do your ******* job. I've had jobs before where I was unhappy, but I didn't mail it in. You keep working as hard as possible because you have some modicum of pride and respect for the job that you do.

**** Chris Drury, **** anyone else on our team that places the blame on anyone but themselves. Rarely do I become angered by players on my favorite teams, but ****, this is nonsense.
Geez dude, tell us how you actually feel. No really, don't hold back

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02-24-2009, 11:20 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Considering our most underachieving players happen to be the same ones with long-term contracts for big money, no, I didn't/don't think that's the reason.

Look, I've defended these players all year in the face of criticisms like "they don't care" or "they're heartless", and now it's becoming readily apparent to me that I was wrong--a lot of them don't seem to care, and have no heart. It makes me feel foolish to have advocated for a bunch of ******* for as long as I did.



My anger and resentment in this thread is separate from my disappointment that Renney was let go. As I've stated numerous times in other threads, I knew this move was inevitable, accepted it and in some respects even acknowledged it may be necessary.

And I do understand that the players we have might not be the best fit for Tom Renney's system, but that is absolutely no excuse for lazy play, lack of effort and seemingly waning passion.
when was micheletti quoted as saying that?

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Old
02-24-2009, 11:29 AM
  #65
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when was micheletti quoted as saying that?
Yesterday on NHL Live. They had him on to talk about the Renney firing.

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Old
02-24-2009, 11:33 AM
  #66
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I don't have a problem with Drury's comments. I think he isn't the right guy to be Captain, but he is right to a certain degree.

Messier was kind of a hypocrite. He hated Nielson's system in 1992 and 1993 and went public with it, but when Colin Campbell used the same system in 1997, he kept his mouth shut and said it was necessary.

Drury may have never liked Renney but kept his mouth shut, which is really not a fault, depending from the point of view.

Drury basically said the team needed a swift kick in the behind and a new coach might do that. But I don't think he is deflecting criticism away from the players.

Anybody with a pulse knows the combination of the old coaching staff and the current roster was toxic, not just the fault of either party singularly.

Let's just see how the next 20 games play out. The players have a brief reprieve, but it will disintegrate if they keep playing like poo.

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02-24-2009, 11:49 AM
  #67
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Forget about their salaries and the length of their contracts for a moment. Just focus on the players that Sather brought in as compared to the players already on the team. None of these guys made any sense for this team at the time they were signed, and that is simply speaking on the ice, not even counting the financial side.

This is ALL on Sather. Like his prize acquisitions, he is extremely overrated and hasn't done **** as a GM in nearly 20 years. Gomez and Drury made no sense for this team because both need to be surrounded by a lot of talent to excel, which this team didn't have, doesn't have and won't for a while.

Redden we all know the story. Signing a guy who has been awful for two seasons to the league's worst contract... these players made no sense for this team. They don't belong here and now this team is poorly put together. How could someone look at this roster in August and think to themselves: this is the recipe for success. A team lacking a single first-line forward, a team lacking size and strength, full of smallish, talentless grinders, and a soft, mediocre defense.

It doesn't matter what Drury says because the problem isn't the system, it's that there isn't anyone on the team with enough talent to make **** happen on their own. They are ALL complimentary players and role players.

Tortorella won't change that.

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02-24-2009, 11:51 AM
  #68
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There are many facets to coaching and one of them is being able to inspire your guys to get out there and give 100%. If any of you can tell me that over the past 15 games Renney did just that, then you're full of ****. Say all you want about the lack of talent, these losses were less about talent and more about a failure to battle. Seriously, how many guys were going out there every night and trying to win battles? I'm talking about down low, along the half-boards, everywhere.

You can point the fingers at the captain, at Sather, at Dolan, or whoever, but at the end of the day there was one guy in charge of getting the Rangers wins each night. He failed to do his job and he was held accountable. Just because other people deserve blame as much as (if not more than) Renney doesn't mean that Renney himself didn't deserve to get canned.
If our players need motivation from a coach to play with any semblance of passion and desire, then we have far larger problems than the coach himself.

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02-24-2009, 12:16 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
so what you're saying, allstar, is that Sather is to blame here for not putting together a team that had depth and thus an ability for Renney to bench any player at any time if they're not playing within the system or they're out there dogging it.
exactly. Though it can be argued that Renney didnt properly communicate what he needed to sather (hell renney said early on they were gonna be an uptempo forechecking team didnt he???) so Renney then falls back into the 1-2-2 BS, and now doesnt have the team for it since that wasnt the original plan. On the flip side, Sather could have just F'd up. Either way we cant change the past,and for Sather (who wants to keep his job im sure) especially its about figuring out what we can do now with what we have regardless of how much or how little that may be. That was my point i guess.

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02-24-2009, 12:21 PM
  #70
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Scipio...

I don't think Mess' comments regarding Neilson's and Campbell's systems are necessarily hypocritical. Perhaps we're talking about two different teams with different sets of players and the system better-suited one group of players at one time over another group. Remember that 1997 team. Landgon was on a checking line with Graves. You had a bunch of injuries (Kovalev had been out since January and remained out). They were lucky to hobble into Philly.

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02-24-2009, 12:22 PM
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Renney communicating to Sather, most likely, would be useless. Sather's going to bring in who he wants to bring in. Think Redden's the kind of guy Renney would ask for? Look at Sather's quote today regarding Avery and Torts. Sather will bring in who he pleases, and to be honest, that's the way it should be. He should have a coach who shares the same vision as he and thus finding players each likes should be easy. Should be, but isn't.

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02-24-2009, 12:24 PM
  #72
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BringupBobby..

I don't disagree about the fight in the players. And to an extent, Renney did try. He juggled around his lines to a point where it didn't make any sense as very few combos were working and his players hit a wall. I don't argue too much that there didn't appear to be a sense of urgency in Renney, and that resonated in his players, but at the same time, that's never been his style and players in the past found ways to work hard under him.

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02-24-2009, 12:31 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
We shouldnt be too quick to judgment here. Drury could be speaking for the team.
Lundqvist wasn't exactly discontent either, judging from his comments yesterday.
He wanted Renney gone, and like it or not he (henrik) is the leader of this team right now.
Sather even admits that he recently held discussions with certain key players regarding their thoughts on Renney, prior to making the final decision.
The players gave up on him and in the end that's why he was fired.

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02-24-2009, 12:32 PM
  #74
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I'd be a lot more impressed with Torts had he stripped Drury of the 'c' this morning.

Would've been sick.

Yeah I'm a Drury hater, get over it.

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02-24-2009, 12:35 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Forget about their salaries and the length of their contracts for a moment. Just focus on the players that Sather brought in as compared to the players already on the team. None of these guys made any sense for this team at the time they were signed, and that is simply speaking on the ice, not even counting the financial side.

This is ALL on Sather. Like his prize acquisitions, he is extremely overrated and hasn't done **** as a GM in nearly 20 years. Gomez and Drury made no sense for this team because both need to be surrounded by a lot of talent to excel, which this team didn't have, doesn't have and won't for a while.

Redden we all know the story. Signing a guy who has been awful for two seasons to the league's worst contract... these players made no sense for this team. They don't belong here and now this team is poorly put together. How could someone look at this roster in August and think to themselves: this is the recipe for success. A team lacking a single first-line forward, a team lacking size and strength, full of smallish, talentless grinders, and a soft, mediocre defense.

It doesn't matter what Drury says because the problem isn't the system, it's that there isn't anyone on the team with enough talent to make **** happen on their own. They are ALL complimentary players and role players.

Tortorella won't change that.
You know, a lot of people assumed this team would struggle scoring goals this season...

A lot of people thought that replacing Jagr/Straka/Shanny/Avery with Voros/Rissmiller/Naslund/Zherdev wouldn't have positive results.

Even last season, with 2 600+ goal scorers, there were plenty of games where we couldn't muster up enough offense.

It's no surprise we struggled offensively. Not too me, anyway.

As an avid poster on the Rangers board, I recall numerous people saying things like "This team might take a step back this season with the moves Sather forced". They were correct.

The changes Sather made is what ultimately set this team up for failure. Scotty Bowman behind our Bench would struggle finding consistent offense with the group of players Sather has assembled.

Renney's no fool. He played, and coached this team to their strengths. But that's where the real joke is. This current team, can't even excel in the little areas of the game.

The Jed Ortymeyer's, Steve Rucchin's, Dominic Moore's, and Ryan ****ing Hollweg's were capable of playing a simple, countering system that rewarded attention to detail. Yet their better replacements couldn't.

Sather set Renney up for failure. Can you guys imagine your boss doing the same? And then firing you? It's hard to make Peanut Butter with Almonds. I don't give a damn how hard you try.

I think a lot of people expecting Torts to turn this ship around, are in for a rude awakening.

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