HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Do we miss lats ?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-25-2009, 01:27 PM
  #51
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Komisarek View Post
A big body up front is always welcome.
I hope you are talking about hockey here....

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 01:28 PM
  #52
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,258
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You are comparing them when Lats is having a better season than last year and when Higgins is having an off-year.
Uh no. Lats ESG/60 this year >= Higgins ESG/60 this year. Lats ESG/60 last year > Higgins ESG/60 last year. Higgins was still ahead the year before, but that was Lats' rookie year so I think the 19-year-old-at-the-time can be cut some slack.

This year, Lats is actually scoring less than last year overall, though he was having a good stretch when he was hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Even-strenght scoring doesn't mean he's a better scorer.
I'll allow that special teams scoring also factors in, but even-strength scoring, especially on this team, is an important factor. At any rate, Lats is scoring more on the PP than Higgins this year as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
What you also tend to forget is that Higgins, playing on better lines, also has to go through better defenders, something Lats doesn't have to go through.
I'll give you that, but Lats has been successful on top lines before. And he hasn't really faced worse opposition this year than Higgins.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 01:57 PM
  #53
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Uh no. Lats ESG/60 this year >= Higgins ESG/60 this year. Lats ESG/60 last year > Higgins ESG/60 last year. Higgins was still ahead the year before, but that was Lats' rookie year so I think the 19-year-old-at-the-time can be cut some slack.

This year, Lats is actually scoring less than last year overall, though he was having a good stretch when he was hurt.



I'll allow that special teams scoring also factors in, but even-strength scoring, especially on this team, is an important factor. At any rate, Lats is scoring more on the PP than Higgins this year as well.



I'll give you that, but Lats has been successful on top lines before. And he hasn't really faced worse opposition this year than Higgins.

Like I said before, you are still comparing year for year. Try comparing best year versus best year, or overall career. Like with the PP, you are comparing only this season, yet Lats is NOWHERE near Higgins's best season on the PP. Get it? You are cherry picking, but the definitive conclusion right now, is that Higgins is still a better goal scorer, for the moment.

EDIT: also, for me, a way to see pure goal scoring is the breakaway, where guys like Gagné and Carter score often on PK, just like Higgins and Pleks. I've seen Higgins score many times on breakaways, while Lats has had several chances and scored once or twice. Now granted, Lats is not the same type of player, and this is where I want to make my point. Higgins and Pleks use their speed to complement their scoring touch. Lats has to use his size in front of the net to do that, but doesn't. Its not just a matter of sticking his butt there, he has to learn and condition himself to react the right way, to take the rebound at the right time at the right place. From the slot, it is the same thing, Lats doesn't have the positional skills of Pleks and Higgins, he has to learn that. Until he can couple his talent for scoring with other attributes, it doesn't warrant the title of better goal scorer. Yes, I'll admit that he does have a better shot than both Pleks and Higgy, but contrarily to the two, doesn't have anything to strive on, to complement his shot.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 02-25-2009 at 02:09 PM.
Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 02:04 PM
  #54
BigTimer*
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,970
vCash: 500
Of course he's missed. He and Max formed a consistent duo, and he didn't fail as badly as Higgins did on the Tanguay-Koivu line so there's always a spot on our roster where he can do better than the guy we have playing there now.

BigTimer* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 02:06 PM
  #55
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27,612
vCash: 500
Every regular is missed.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 02:25 PM
  #56
Markovskaya
Registered User
 
Markovskaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 885
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Every regular is missed.
yeah but there is a lot of lats haters outside the locker room.

Markovskaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 02:33 PM
  #57
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,258
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Like I said before, you are still comparing year for year. Try comparing best year versus best year, or overall career.
Lats' best career year for scoring rate was probably last year, where he beat Higgins who was also having a better season that last year. I could go back and compare his rookie season, but I get the feeling Lats is still going to beat him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
EDIT: also, for me, a way to see pure goal scoring is the breakaway, where guys like Gagné and Carter score often on PK, just like Higgins and Pleks. I've seen Higgins score many times on breakaways, while Lats has had several chances and scored once or twice.
Actually I've always felt Lats was one of the better Habs on breakaways, and Higgins never was very good. Lats can be relied to roof the puck on even a partial break, whereas Higgins tends to muff a higher percentage -- though he gets more of them. If there's one thing I can subjectively point to to explain why I think Lats is a better scorer, this would have been it. Lats and Higgy score most often the same way on breakaways, with the top-shelf shot -- it's just that Lats gets fewer but buries a higher percentage.

Obviously in this case we're both relying on anecdotical observation, and so it's pretty subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
From the slot, it is the same thing, Lats doesn't have the positional skills of Pleks and Higgins, he has to learn that. Until he can couple his talent for scoring with other attributes, it doesn't warrant the title of better goal scorer. Yes, I'll admit that he does have a better shot than both Pleks and Higgy, but contrarily to the two, doesn't have anything to strive on, to complement his shot.
Subjectively again, Lats' positional skills are underrated IMHO (and so are his passing skills, for that matter). But they both rely on other players to be effective, and Lats hasn't had the quality of linemates that Pleks and Higgins have had with regularity. He's done well when paired up with the right players, just like Higgins and Pleky have, but those two have better all-around games and so have been higher on the depth chart.

Still, for a guy who supposedly has the flaws you attribute to him, that he's been objectively able to score so much is quite remarkable, don't you think?

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 02:44 PM
  #58
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27,612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Lats' best career year for scoring rate was probably last year, where he beat Higgins who was also having a better season that last year. I could go back and compare his rookie season, but I get the feeling Lats is still going to beat him.
You can compare their rate all you want. Until Lats nets 25+G, you can't say he's a better Goal Scorer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Actually I've always felt Lats was one of the better Habs on breakaways, and Higgins never was very good. Lats can be relied to roof the puck on even a partial break, whereas Higgins tends to muff a higher percentage -- though he gets more of them. If there's one thing I can subjectively point to to explain why I think Lats is a better scorer, this would have been it. Lats and Higgy score most often the same way on breakaways, with the top-shelf shot -- it's just that Lats gets fewer but buries a higher percentage.

Obviously in this case we're both relying on anecdotical observation, and so it's pretty subjective.
Maybe Lats is better on breakaways. But that's far from proving anything. If I'm not mistaken, Komisarek scored on his sole Breakaway attempt, does this make him a better scorer?
Lapierre is 2/2 during shootouts, does this make him a better scorer??..Nope.
So, being a better breakaway/Shootout guy doesn't necessarily make you the better scorer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Subjectively again, Lats' positional skills are underrated IMHO (and so are his passing skills, for that matter). But they both rely on other players to be effective, and Lats hasn't had the quality of linemates that Pleks and Higgins have had with regularity. He's done well when paired up with the right players, just like Higgins and Pleky have, but those two have better all-around games and so have been higher on the depth chart.

Still, for a guy who supposedly has the flaws you attribute to him, that he's been objectively able to score so much is quite remarkable, don't you think?
I think Lats is good, and I was always opposed to see him on any line outside 1st/2nd. I think that's where we'd see him excel the most. I'm not disappointed in Lats, I think people as usual had high expectations.
That being said, I think Lats main issue is his skating. If he can work on that over the next few years, he'll become a very solid player.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 02:54 PM
  #59
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Lats' best career year for scoring rate was probably last year, where he beat Higgins who was also having a better season that last year. I could go back and compare his rookie season, but I get the feeling Lats is still going to beat him.
LOL come on. You are comparing ES scoring per 60 minutes ONLY. Compare opposition, compare PP scoring, compare PK scoring, in both their best seasons. Sorry but Higgins comes out on top.



Quote:
Actually I've always felt Lats was one of the better Habs on breakaways, and Higgins never was very good.
Man get off the Lats Kool-Aid. He scored TWO goals on breakaways, in 80 games less than Higgins, while Higgins has scored so many I can't count, he already has TWO this season. Come on, I like Lats, but that comment is so biased.

Quote:
Lats can be relied to roof the puck on even a partial break, whereas Higgins tends to muff a higher percentage -- though he gets more of them.
Not true. Go check youtube vids of breakaways from both players. Higgins is much better on breakaways.

Quote:
If there's one thing I can subjectively point to to explain why I think Lats is a better scorer, this would have been it. Lats and Higgy score most often the same way on breakaways, with the top-shelf shot -- it's just that Lats gets fewer but buries a higher percentage.
That's false. I've seen about all of their games, both of them, and if I had to chose between the two, I'd take Higgins, no questions asked. Because Higgins can use his speed as a trigger to move the goalie, while Lats can't, as simple as that. Both Higgins and Plekanec have scored more often on breakaways and have had a higher percentage than Lats.

Quote:
Obviously in this case we're both relying on anecdotical observation, and so it's pretty subjective.
Yeah it is, I entirely agree with that, but for breakaway percentage, we'd only need to make a bit of research for the facts, but having seen mostly all the games since Higgins came into the league, I can assure you that his breakaway percentage is much higher than Lats.



Quote:
Subjectively again, Lats' positional skills are underrated IMHO (and so are his passing skills, for that matter).
The positional game is the reason why Lats isn't playing on the 1st or 2nd line and why Higgins is there. It is not subjective, it was easy to see. When playing with Lapierre, who has simple game of dump and chase, Lats knows where to go, but has a hard time whenever things get more complicated, but that's not a fault, he's young and will get better (already is somewhat better), but it is fact that at this moment, his positional game doesn't help him produce mroe goals.

Quote:
But they both rely on other players to be effective, and Lats hasn't had the quality of linemates that Pleks and Higgins have had with regularity.
Yet again, you mention linemates, but still falter in not mentionning that with better linemates, comes better opposition.

Quote:
He's done well when paired up with the right players, just like Higgins and Pleky have, but those two have better all-around games and so have been higher on the depth chart.
But it also has to do with the aspects of their game that was already developped, using their assests to complement their scoring touch, something Lats has not done yet.

Quote:
Still, for a guy who supposedly has the flaws you attribute to him, that he's been objectively able to score so much is quite remarkable, don't you think?
What Flaws? I did say he had a better shot? Wouldn't that explain it? Don't you think? Wouldn't that also explain why he is still on the bottom lines? Because he doesn't complement his scoring touch yet, because his positional game still needs a lot of tweaking?

Let's just agree to disagree.

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:02 PM
  #60
NewHabsEra*
 
NewHabsEra*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,695
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markovskaya View Post
Somehow I can't decide...
The way Lats was playing before his injury, we certainly miss him...

NewHabsEra* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:06 PM
  #61
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
 
Fish on The Sand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Posts: 52,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBrowser View Post
He was playing well for his standards. Are those standards anywhere near something I would miss? Not at all.
he was playing every bit as well as Pacioretti. The Lats hate in here is ridiculous. Before Lats got hurt Lapierre and Kosto were chipping in some offence, since then Kosto has been meh and Lapierre has contributed dick all on the score sheet.

Fish on The Sand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:27 PM
  #62
LeMAD
Registered User
 
LeMAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,448
vCash: 500
How many goals/points would Latendresse have had if he played all year with Saku and on the 2nd PP?


Not saying he's clearly better than Higgins, but Latendresse is underrated. Imo, at his best this year, he was better than Higgins' best this year. And, there are few players in the league that are as good as Lats in the corners.

LeMAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:35 PM
  #63
BigTimer*
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,970
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
How many goals/points would Latendresse have had if he played all year with Saku and on the 2nd PP?


Not saying he's clearly better than Higgins, but Latendresse is underrated. Imo, at his best this year, he was better than Higgins' best this year. And, there are few players in the league that are as good as Lats in the corners.
Yeah, he complemented Tangs and Koivu pretty well.. we can only wonder what a whole season of that trio would yield. Giving Higgins that spot on a silver platter was a mistake and it blew up right in Carbo's face.

BigTimer* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:36 PM
  #64
Markovskaya
Registered User
 
Markovskaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 885
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
How many goals/points would Latendresse have had if he played all year with Saku and on the 2nd PP?


Not saying he's clearly better than Higgins, but Latendresse is underrated. Imo, at his best this year, he was better than Higgins' best this year. And, there are few players in the league that are as good as Lats in the corners.

I would say 20 goals, 15 assist, 35 points.

Markovskaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:38 PM
  #65
12jf54
Registered User
 
12jf54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 881
vCash: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
How many goals/points would Latendresse have had if he played all year with Saku and on the 2nd PP?


Not saying he's clearly better than Higgins, but Latendresse is underrated. Imo, at his best this year, he was better than Higgins' best this year. And, there are few players in the league that are as good as Lats in the corners.

12jf54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 04:08 PM
  #66
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,258
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You can compare their rate all you want. Until Lats nets 25+G, you can't say he's a better Goal Scorer.
Counting stats are exceedingly misleading when not examined with some care, and do not accurately represent who's the better goal-scorer -- just who's scored the most goals. It also piles power play, even strength, and shorthanded goals together and that's a very broad brush.

We keep talking about PPG players, yet never look much at icetime as a factor. That seems really odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Maybe Lats is better on breakaways. But that's far from proving anything. If I'm not mistaken, Komisarek scored on his sole Breakaway attempt, does this make him a better scorer?
That was brought up by someone else, but there's sample size to consider. Lats and Higgy both get more breakaways than Komi. My point was that I didn't believe that Lats is worse on breakaways than Higgins when he gets them,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Lapierre is 2/2 during shootouts, does this make him a better scorer??..Nope.
Shootouts are a mystery TBH, there doesn't seem to be much correlation to being a good scorer in game, even on breakaways, and being a good scorer in the shootout. Which leads to puzzling things like Joe Sakic being terrible in shootouts and guys like Jarko Ruutu being designated shootout specialists.

The same with goalies.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 04:31 PM
  #67
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 27,612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Counting stats are exceedingly misleading when not examined with some care, and do not accurately represent who's the better goal-scorer -- just who's scored the most goals. It also piles power play, even strength, and shorthanded goals together and that's a very broad brush.

We keep talking about PPG players, yet never look much at icetime as a factor. That seems really odd.
I agree, people often don't read the Stats correctly. I was/am always happy to defend Lats's production via IceTime and linemates. His age can also be brought into it.

That being said, we cannot affirm that he'd be a better goal scorer if he'd have gotten the same opportunities Higgins has. We can say if he kept a similar pace he would, but as you know, this isn't an exact science.
There's no way to say FOR SURE, that he'd keep up the same ratio/pace if he were to get more icetime/ops.

That's why I said, until he actually does it, we can't say he's a better goal scorer.


Personally, I do think he'll be able to get more goals, but as of today he's not a better goal scorer than Higgins. Maybe next year.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 04:34 PM
  #68
dutchy29
Registered User
 
dutchy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: SIRISAACBROCKVILLE
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,912
vCash: 500
who?

dutchy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 04:38 PM
  #69
TheCH*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,060
vCash: 500
If he played with blah he'd be blah.
If Plekanec played with Ovechkin he'd be better then Backstrom.

TheCH* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 04:41 PM
  #70
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,258
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
LOL come on. You are comparing ES scoring per 60 minutes ONLY. Compare opposition, compare PP scoring, compare PK scoring, in both their best seasons. Sorry but Higgins comes out on top.
Higgins is certainly better on the PK as Lats doesn't kill penalties. Latendresse is better than Higgins on the PP this year and worse last year, but he hasn't really had enough PP time to really make a definite conclusion in both cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Not true. Go check youtube vids of breakaways from both players. Higgins is much better on breakaways.
YouTube? You want to use YouTube as an argument?

YouTube would only have spectacular breakaway goals. Not even all of them, and both players tend to score breakaways on good, top-shelf shot that don't make for great YouTubes. I'm not going to do it, but it'd make more sense to go to the NHL site and look at the goal-scoring videos for both players.

Besides, YouTube isn't really going to show garden-variety failed breakaways, so it's not a good measure of if someone is good at scoring on a high percentage of breakaways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Both Higgins and Plekanec have scored more often on breakaways and have had a higher percentage than Lats.
That hasn't been my impression, but unless someone goes back and counts all the breakaways both players had and calculates the percentages, we can't tell either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Yet again, you mention linemates, but still falter in not mentionning that with better linemates, comes better opposition.
That's true, but Latendresse has been effective when used on top lines before, so I'm not sure this is such a deal-breaker. Besides, strength of opposition is something not many metrics exist for, and by the only one I know of -- the one from behindthenet.ca -- the two have faced roughly equivalent opposition this year and produced roughly equivalent goal-scoring.

OTOH, if you want to argue that Higgins is safer to use against tough opposition due to his defensive game I will concede you that, but that doesn't factor in goal-scoring ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
But it also has to do with the aspects of their game that was already developped, using their assests to complement their scoring touch, something Lats has not done yet.
I was talking of their all-around game more with regards to their ability to kill penalties and defend as well as attack. I think Lats is a better offensive player than Higgins (not Pleky though), but that doesn't mean he is a better player overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
What Flaws? I did say he had a better shot? Wouldn't that explain it? Don't you think? Wouldn't that also explain why he is still on the bottom lines? Because he doesn't complement his scoring touch yet, because his positional game still needs a lot of tweaking?
I suspect he is on the third line because Andrei Kostitsyn is clearly ahead of him on the depth chart and is going to take up one of the spots. Higgins has seniority and he has a better all-around game, which puts him ahead of Lats on the depth chart as well.

It should be noted that Lats was more effective offensively on a line with Koivu and Tanguay this year than Higgins was -- though that sample size was very small and no doubt affected by Higgins' injury. If the two had remained healthy and Lats hadn't developped such good chemistry with Lapierre and Kostopoulos (he was outscoring anything Higgins has done all year with them), I suspect he would have eventually ended up back on that line.

MathMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 05:16 PM
  #71
madbox
Registered User
 
madbox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Quebec
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,371
vCash: 500
I'd for sure say yes. The confidence he was finally showing, the way him and Lapierre play together, how could you not miss that? When healthy (minus Lang ), I'd definitely be interested in seeing Patches playing on the other wing.

madbox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 05:52 PM
  #72
Jack DiBiase
Team Iceland Coach
 
Jack DiBiase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: Iceland
Posts: 2,304
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Komisarek View Post
LOL We're 6-0-1 without Frank Bouillon in the lineup ahaha
You're saying this as it would be surprising?

Jack DiBiase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 05:55 PM
  #73
Corey
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,300
vCash: 500
I agree he plays well with Lapierre. However, he's not one of the key players on the team. The players with scoring potential have to step it up, and Plekanec has finally heard the message.

Corey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 07:01 PM
  #74
LeMAD
Registered User
 
LeMAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12jf54 View Post
Seriously, he comes out with the puck 90% of the times...

LeMAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 08:40 PM
  #75
Turboflex*
 
Turboflex*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,152
vCash: 500
I'd rather have Lats on a scoring line than Kostopolos

Turboflex* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:43 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.