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Old
02-26-2009, 11:14 PM
  #151
shadow1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
That's the thing with Tavares...whichever team drafts him, pretty much has to sign him and stick him in the lineup. If it's the Islanders, Thrashers or Leafs he's gonna have a tough time meeting expectations with all that pressure on his shoulders. And there's no sending him back to junior...for all accounts, he's a guy who's 'bored' with junior and needs a new challenge or whatever.

If the Avs do have the chance to draft Duchene, he needs to stick in Brampton one more year (just like Sakic did in Swift Current) and then he'll be ready for prime-time. He'll probably captain the WJC for Canada this winter (or be an Assistant) since he was Captain for the Under 18s at the Ivan Hlinka tournament last August.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3913357

That's a pretty good article right there...sums it up pretty well.
Yep. He'll probably adjust better than Stamkos (possibility he'll have a "Kane" year), but like you said there's no sense keeping him in junior. Heck, if he were four days younger he could have been drafted next year.

However, Victor Hedman would be a guy to throw into a line-up to get him alot of NHL experience. While he has great hockey sense, he doesn't put up big offensive numbers. Assuming Foote is still around next season, I can't think of a better way for a defenseman to come into the league than to be paired with a legend like him.

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02-26-2009, 11:18 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by nammerus View Post
If we're healthy, we lose to the wings in 5 instead of 4. Only a huge homer would think otherwise.

This team needs a HUGE overhaul if we want to compete for the cup. If you're content with us struggling to make the playoffs and/or going out in the 1st/2nd round, then sure, some small tweaks will allow us to stay in that mode. But I'd prefer a complete reboot.
I see, so we should sell everyone but Statsny and Shattenkirk and stock up on picks?

I don't understand what you're saying. Our "rebuilding" is nigh complete.

We have a good offensive core of Staz, Wolski, Smyth, and Hejduk. I'm sure FG will get some young talent, I hear he is going after Frolov. PLUS, we have upcoming players like Jones, Stewart, and Hensick. And I still think Sakic can make a comeback at a REASONABLE PRICE. Add the "core", the young fast strong guys, some acquisitions, and the offense is fairly strong.

The D needs more help, but I feel starting with Foote, Hannan, and Liles is solid. I think we should extend Leopold too, we all know he is good. Then we have promising young talent coming up, with Shattenkirk looking like a young Dan Boyle.

There's also the assurance of us getting a high draft pick, if not the highest draft pick. Add Hedman or Tavares to this team and all of a sudden things don't look so bleak.

What we do need is a goalie.

So, ALL WE HAVE TO DO is
trim the bad players
add a goalie
raise the young guys up
draft well in this deep draft we are having
and acquire some offensive talent to replace the trimmed players

This isn't a major overhaul, we aren't in for years of rebuilding. I think we'll be back in the playoff hunt NEXT YEAR if FG isn't inept (although he's proven to be a brick), and sooner or later the young guys will develop into studs (with Shattenkirk and GOOD 2009 DRAFTING leading the way) and make us a great team.

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02-26-2009, 11:28 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
So, ALL WE HAVE TO DO is
trim the bad players
add a goalie
raise the young guys up
draft well in this deep draft we are having
and acquire some offensive talent to replace the trimmed players

This isn't a major overhaul, we aren't in for years of rebuilding. I think we'll be back in the playoff hunt NEXT YEAR if FG isn't inept (although he's proven to be a brick), and sooner or later the young guys will develop into studs (with Shattenkirk and GOOD 2009 DRAFTING leading the way) and make us a great team.
Technically we were still in the playoff hunt a few games ago.

Yes, we are in for years of rebuilding. At least a few before we're a good team again (i.e. pre-lockout). This team has very few good prospects, and the ones that are good still need a few more seasons to develop. Sakic and Foote are both injury prone, and on the brink of retiring.

Also, there's no goalie in the system worth a crap (unless someone breaks out). I don't know where the Avs plan on finding one, either. I'm doubting they sign Backstrom, and even if they do is he really the best choice? I get the nagging feeling that he's Roman Cechmanek v.2.

This is a bad team. The Avs didn't even deserve to be in the same building and New Jersey tonight, even though the only injuries were Sakic, Liles, and Jones. AND they were playing a goalie who hasn't played in four months. I don't care if it's Brodeur, he's probably rusty but there's no telling with the crap shots Colorado got on net.

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02-26-2009, 11:30 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
Yep. He'll probably adjust better than Stamkos (possibility he'll have a "Kane" year), but like you said there's no sense keeping him in junior. Heck, if he were four days younger he could have been drafted next year.

However, Victor Hedman would be a guy to throw into a line-up to get him alot of NHL experience. While he has great hockey sense, he doesn't put up big offensive numbers. Assuming Foote is still around next season, I can't think of a better way for a defenseman to come into the league than to be paired with a legend like him.
That's a good point and I do like Hedman a lot as well. If I had the #2 pick, I'd really be torn between Hedman and Duchene. I guess a lot would depend on what could be gained by trading down 1 spot to take Duchene. If it's not worthwhile, I think the wise move is to probably draft Hedman. D-men like that just don't come along often enough to pass him up. I just hope that the alleged injuries he had at the WJC were for real and not some cop-out for his less than dominating play. I thought he looked pretty good but expected a bit more.

By the way, you're wrong on the Tavares thing. If he were 4 days younger, he could have gotten drafted LAST YEAR not next year! He'll be one of the oldest players in this years draft. For example, he'll be 19 for his first NHL game.

Tavares DOB Sept 20th/1990
Hedman DOB Dec 18th/1990
Duchene DOB Jan 16th/1991

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02-26-2009, 11:33 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
That's a good point and I do like Hedman a lot as well. If I had the #2 pick, I'd really be torn between Hedman and Duchene. I guess a lot would depend on what could be gained by trading down 1 spot to take Duchene. If it's not worthwhile, I think the wise move is to probably draft Hedman. D-men like that just don't come along often enough to pass him up. I just hope that the alleged injuries he had at the WJC were for real and not some cop-out for his less than dominating play. I thought he looked pretty good but expected a bit more.

By the way, you're wrong on the Tavares thing. If he were 4 days younger, he could have gotten drafted LAST YEAR not next year! He'll be one of the oldest players in this years draft. For example, he'll be 19 for his first NHL game.

Tavares DOB Sept 20th/1990
Hedman DOB Dec 18th/1990
Duchene DOB Jan 16th/1991
Whoops, that's what I meant.

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02-26-2009, 11:34 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
Technically we were still in the playoff hunt a few games ago.

Yes, we are in for years of rebuilding. At least a few before we're a good team again (i.e. pre-lockout). This team has very few good prospects, and the ones that are good still need a few more seasons to develop. Sakic and Foote are both injury prone, and on the brink of retiring.

Also, there's no goalie in the system worth a crap (unless someone breaks out). I don't know where the Avs plan on finding one, either. I'm doubting they sign Backstrom, and even if they do is he really the best choice? I get the nagging feeling that he's Roman Cechmanek v.2.

This is a bad team. The Avs didn't even deserve to be in the same building and New Jersey tonight, even though the only injuries were Sakic, Liles, and Jones. AND they were playing a goalie who hasn't played in four months. I don't care if it's Brodeur, he's probably rusty but there's no telling with the crap shots Colorado got on net.
Maybe the avs aren't even trying anymore?

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02-26-2009, 11:35 PM
  #157
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it is pointless to fix the roster until TG is fired, and Cloutier with him. There's certainly some areas that need work on the roster, but I'm not sure fixing them matters unless you fix the deeper problem.

It would be like a million dollar remodel on a house with a crumbling foundation. it's a complete waste.

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02-26-2009, 11:38 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
Maybe the avs aren't even trying anymore?
I doubt it. The "good" players (Wolski, Hejduk, Smyth, Stastny) combined for over a third (9/24) of the Avs shots, and guys like Willsie and Guite have no choice but to work or else they won't be able to find anyone to pay them the minimum.

It's just a typical 15th seeded team. All the wrong parts in all of the wrong places.

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02-27-2009, 02:19 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
That's a good point and I do like Hedman a lot as well. If I had the #2 pick, I'd really be torn between Hedman and Duchene. I guess a lot would depend on what could be gained by trading down 1 spot to take Duchene. If it's not worthwhile, I think the wise move is to probably draft Hedman. D-men like that just don't come along often enough to pass him up. I just hope that the alleged injuries he had at the WJC were for real and not some cop-out for his less than dominating play. I thought he looked pretty good but expected a bit more.

By the way, you're wrong on the Tavares thing. If he were 4 days younger, he could have gotten drafted LAST YEAR not next year! He'll be one of the oldest players in this years draft. For example, he'll be 19 for his first NHL game.

Tavares DOB Sept 20th/1990
Hedman DOB Dec 18th/1990
Duchene DOB Jan 16th/1991
I feel the same way about Hedman and Duchene. If I had the #2, I'd be really torn as well. Because of Shattenkirk, I think I would go for Duchene. Our prospect pool at forwards is a little thin right now. I think Duchene will be a very special player. Great speed, not afraid to play physical, good at both ends...and he is an Avs fan. Imagine having Stas, Duchene and Wolski at centers. Once Duchene shows he belongs in the NHL, we could use Wolski to get us a pretty darn good dman to go along with Shat, Hannan, Liles and Cohen. Or maybe we can move Duchene to LW to pay with Stas or Wolski.
In fact if I had the #1, I would trade down twice with the next 2 teams and take Duchene.

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02-27-2009, 08:35 AM
  #160
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Am I the only one who thought Rayzor looked way off tonight? Played wayyyyyyyy out of the net
Half of everythign i said was about Ray

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02-27-2009, 08:46 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post

So, ALL WE HAVE TO DO is
trim the bad players
add a goalie
raise the young guys up
draft well in this deep draft we are having
and acquire some offensive talent to replace the trimmed players
You forgot:
-Acquire new coaching
-Change all strategies
-Forecheck
-Get aggressive on the Defense
-Don't get discouraged when the opposition scores a goal, regardless of when it is, because it's a given that they other team is GOING to score. It's almost innevitable.
-And skate harder. We lose a lot of 1-1 battles, battles along the boards, and don't get to the loose puck much because of this. This results in a lot of rush chances lost.

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Old
02-27-2009, 08:50 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
I'd say we could have beaten the Wings if not for the fact that every single forward we had got injured.
I honestly don't mean this to sound mean, but that is simple homerism. If the Avs were completely healthy, and Theodore played the way he did in the Minnesota series, the Avs still lose to Detroit in 5 games. Maybe 6 (if they got the 'good' bounces ).

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
The bad moves that killed us?
1) Losing Theo and replacing him with Raycroft
2) Losing Brunette (BARGAIN 80 POINT PLAYER) for Tucker -> major problem
3) The SLOW emergence of a new wave of young players: Jones, Stewart, Hensick
4) Injuries
Agreed. But, you forgot one:

5) The players they have are consistently playing poorly, particularly against lousy teams.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
These combined to really kill us. how can you say we need major changes when we have an offensive core of Statsny, Hejduk, Smyth, Wolski (at center), along with a crop young players like Stewart, Jones, Hensick and the liklihood of several high draft picks.
Because those players have not gotten it done this year. Both Stewart and Jones started very slowly (as did Wolski and Svatos), Hensick is invisible - yet a lot of Avs fans believe they have a dominant #1 NHL line right there. It's not so. Is Stewart a #2 wing, or a #3 grinder? Unknown. Ditto for Jones. Is Hensick even a NHL player? Unknown. Yet, you want to enthusiastially build the team around them. Much like FG did this past offseason. Didn't work. 40 NHL games for each of them is going to turn it around? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
our D looks pretty decent too, Shattenkirk is coming up at some point, and Liles + hannan + Foote + .... is not so bad.
Again, we all said the same thing this past offseason. Not so bad. Well, 60 games in, it's not so good, either. Foote, Salei, Leopold, Clark, Liles - have all played significant amounts of time where they played well below expectations. I agree it looks OK on paper, but it sure doesn't on the ice.

A lot of fluff about Shattenkirk. The kid hasn't stepped one foot on NHL ice, and probably won't next season either, yet we're banking on him to lock down the Avs 'great future' defense? Again maybe, maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
We need to raise the kids well, GET A GOALIE, and shed guys like Svatos, Tucker, CLark, Arnason...guys who HAVE played well but don't show anything consistently (or at all).
That may or may not be true. But the team also needs Scott Hannan to play like a true #1 shutdown defenseman, not like a 2nd pairing guy. They also need Smyth to play like a $6M player and score 35-40 goals. They need Wolski to play consistently well, not 4 games on, 4 games off. They need Liles to quarterback the powerplay in a consistently competent fashion. The Avs will not compete if these things don't happen.

Everyone wants to point fingers at Arnason, Tucker, etc. And yes, those guys do suck. But, the Avs are in DEAD LAST PLACE. That does not come about due to 3rd/4th line players alone. The top guys aren't getting it done, either.

I agree 100% that we need to go out and spend whatever it takes to get good goaltending.

-AB

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Old
02-27-2009, 09:15 AM
  #163
Bender
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I honestly don't mean this to sound mean, but that is simple homerism. If the Avs were completely healthy, and Theodore played the way he did in the Minnesota series, the Avs still lose to Detroit in 5 games. Maybe 6 (if they got the 'good' bounces ).



Agreed. But, you forgot one:

5) The players they have are consistently playing poorly, particularly against lousy teams.



Because those players have not gotten it done this year. Both Stewart and Jones started very slowly (as did Wolski and Svatos), Hensick is invisible - yet a lot of Avs fans believe they have a dominant #1 NHL line right there. It's not so. Is Stewart a #2 wing, or a #3 grinder? Unknown. Ditto for Jones. Is Hensick even a NHL player? Unknown. Yet, you want to enthusiastially build the team around them. Much like FG did this past offseason. Didn't work. 40 NHL games for each of them is going to turn it around? Perhaps. Perhaps not.



Again, we all said the same thing this past offseason. Not so bad. Well, 60 games in, it's not so good, either. Foote, Salei, Leopold, Clark, Liles - have all played significant amounts of time where they played well below expectations. I agree it looks OK on paper, but it sure doesn't on the ice.

A lot of fluff about Shattenkirk. The kid hasn't stepped one foot on NHL ice, and probably won't next season either, yet we're banking on him to lock down the Avs 'great future' defense? Again maybe, maybe not.



That may or may not be true. But the team also needs Scott Hannan to play like a true #1 shutdown defenseman, not like a 2nd pairing guy. They also need Smyth to play like a $6M player and score 35-40 goals. They need Wolski to play consistently well, not 4 games on, 4 games off. They need Liles to quarterback the powerplay in a consistently competent fashion. The Avs will not compete if these things don't happen.

Everyone wants to point fingers at Arnason, Tucker, etc. And yes, those guys do suck. But, the Avs are in DEAD LAST PLACE. That does not come about due to 3rd/4th line players alone. The top guys aren't getting it done, either.

I agree 100% that we need to go out and spend whatever it takes to get good goaltending.

-AB
I agree although I'm not 100% sure that you do it THIS summer though. It might not be worth it and you might not get the 'right' guy. If Granatool is still coaching this team and Brett Clark is still playing over 20 minutes per game I don't really know what good it will do. Shoring up the position with a capable #1 goalie with this scenario might only allow us to possibly 'squeak' into the playoffs or just miss them by a few points. If Clark & Granato are gone as well as a bunch of others who just aren't contributing and a whole new coaching staff is hired with an actual proven track record then I think I'd be for it but if not, count me out. Just re-sign Budaj & Raycroft to 1 year deals for next season 'cuz it ain't gonna make much difference.

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02-27-2009, 09:42 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
I feel the same way about Hedman and Duchene. If I had the #2, I'd be really torn as well. Because of Shattenkirk, I think I would go for Duchene. Our prospect pool at forwards is a little thin right now. I think Duchene will be a very special player. Great speed, not afraid to play physical, good at both ends...and he is an Avs fan. Imagine having Stas, Duchene and Wolski at centers. Once Duchene shows he belongs in the NHL, we could use Wolski to get us a pretty darn good dman to go along with Shat, Hannan, Liles and Cohen. Or maybe we can move Duchene to LW to pay with Stas or Wolski.
In fact if I had the #1, I would trade down twice with the next 2 teams and take Duchene.
If we ended up with the number one I'm sure IF we decided to trade down than we could get one heck of a return.

As for where to play Duchene, I'd throw him on the wing, his speed game would benefit more from playing on the wing in the NHL in my opinion, he's also got a deadly shot which I think would be more effective from the wingside. Pairing him with someone like Wolski would be amazing IMO, Wojo's got insane puck skills and is getting better and better at protecting the puck, he's also quickly becoming one of our best defensive players, and also has the size, reach and pass first mentality that is great for centers. If we somehow did get Duchene I'd love to see Duchene - Wolski - Stewart as our second line, it's young but you give that line time to develop together and you've got all the makings of something great.

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02-27-2009, 11:24 AM
  #165
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This kind of response scares the living hell out of me, because I think FG shares it.

The Avs got to the final 8 last year, with a goaltender playing absolutely out of his mind, and the first round opponent missing two of their top 4 defensemen. That run, like the 15-2-2 run the year before, weren't indicative of the team's real potential. We're seeing it now, like we did before Theodore got hot last year, and like we did before the 15-2-2 run. The team doesn't have the talent or coaching to go anywhere.

Big changes are needed. Not tweaks.

-AB
Tweaks were needed after LAST season. Bigger changes are needed now. But we don't need a massive franchise changing overhaul.

We made the playoffs last year. But...and call me a homer...had we not had the injuries we did, I think we would have won the division in a walk. As it stood we only missed out on it by 3 points. Now we do need to make changes. We have to completly overhaul the goaltending, change up the defense a bit and add some scoring depth.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
I'd say we could have beaten the Wings if not for the fact that every single forward we had got injured. We were playing well... the whole team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nammerus View Post
If we're healthy, we lose to the wings in 5 instead of 4. Only a huge homer would think otherwise.
We still don't beat the Wings if we are completly healthy. But it would have been a great series, possibly even a seven gamer.

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02-27-2009, 11:42 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
I see, so we should sell everyone but Statsny and Shattenkirk and stock up on picks?
I'd rather they sell and get a few good young roster players, not just picks.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
I don't understand what you're saying. Our "rebuilding" is nigh complete.
Can you push that ashtray over here? I'd like a hit or two of what you've got going.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
We have a good offensive core of Staz, Wolski, Smyth, and Hejduk.
Agreed. We're still short two Top-6 forwards in that group though.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
I'm sure FG will get some young talent,
Good grief. How are you "sure" about this? In his three years here, has he shown some secret means of putting young talent on the Avs? And don't go with Stastny/Wolski, because they were drafted on PL's watch.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
I hear he is going after Frolov. PLUS, we have upcoming players like Jones, Stewart, and Hensick.
Unproven, unproven, and unproven. Hensick has had a lot of chances this year, and has shown almost nothing. Yes, Granato isn't using him terribly well, but he's still got a lot of rookie ice time. Not impressive. Jones looks like a 3rd line player. I'm still on the fence, but he could be useful in that role. Stewart? He shows flashes that are exciting, but can the Avs really count on him as a 2nd line player just yet?

There's an awful lot of faith built into your assertions here.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
And I still think Sakic can make a comeback at a REASONABLE PRICE.
So, the rebuilding is 'nigh complete', yet you want to keep a 40 year old Sakic? Are you also counting on Forsberg coming back next season?

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
Add the "core", the young fast strong guys, some acquisitions, and the offense is fairly strong.
OK, when you say 'some acquisitions'....that leaves an awful lot to ponder. If 'some acquisitions' = two young legitimate Top 6 forwards, and one 3rd line checking/faceoff specialist - hey, I'm on board.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
The D needs more help, but I feel starting with Foote, Hannan, and Liles is solid.
And not one legitimate 1st pairing defenseman anywhere in sight. Hannan could be, but he just doesn't play quite well enough. Foote is almost done - he cannot handle #1 duties anymore. And Liles isn't close.

So, if we want to look at 'some more acquisitions', the Avs need one #1 defenseman, and a 2nd defenseman with a good shot from the point. Not too many of those floating around.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
What we do need is a goalie.
No question there.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
So, ALL WE HAVE TO DO is
trim the bad players
Agreed. And the really old, beat up ones. This includes Sakic. Time to move on and truly rebuild.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
add a goalie
Add a legitimate NHL starter. Not another f**king castoff. Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
raise the young guys up
With realistic expectations, yes. Expecting 1st line/pairing results from the young guys isn't realistic.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
draft well in this deep draft we are having
With realistic expectations. Drafted players very rarely play the next year, and veryveryveryvery few rarely make any kind of impact.

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Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
and acquire some offensive talent to replace the trimmed players
Ah, here's the rub. For the Avs to be a decent team next year, I believe they need to add:

Two top 6 forwards.
One 1st pairing defenseman.
One 3rd line center.
One starting NHL goaltender.

Then, with all of the young guys going, the Avs could compete.

If Stewart pans out, maybe they just need one Top 6 forward. But, it's still a lot of players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsboy12345 View Post
This isn't a major overhaul, we aren't in for years of rebuilding. I think we'll be back in the playoff hunt NEXT YEAR if FG isn't inept (although he's proven to be a brick), and sooner or later the young guys will develop into studs (with Shattenkirk and GOOD 2009 DRAFTING leading the way) and make us a great team.
That's the 4th time with Shattenkirk. Yes, he looks like a very good prospect. Maybe we should wait until he actually plays ONE professional shift, before *counting* on him.

-AB

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