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Old
03-13-2004, 12:59 AM
  #76
quat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
Firstly,You are completely correct that I don't know when Steve Moore will be skating. Which is why I don't make any public predictions about it. Brian Burke do. So if anyone has any information from any physician that has examined Moore which indicates Moore could be skating in 4 weeks, I love to see it. Until such material surfaces - Burke is a liar. Simple as that. (hint: the treating doctors at the hospital released a press statement where they made no predictions as to Moores recovery whatsoever).

Secondly, you come off as a romantic when it comes to violence. A guy that would rather call a brutal assault "a friendly tap" or "a mistake" because hey, thats what we jolly good hockey people do.

Thirdly, Burkes stupid comments only draw even more attention to Bertuzzi.

Lastly, I attack stupid statements. If posters drop the charade where they invent facts or allow their bias to downplay anything they won't have any problem with me. Am I going to go after people who claim stuff they can't back up? You bet.

Then you should spend a great deal of time attacking yourself. You constantly spew venom, invent or distort information, and attack others points of view with lies or missinformation. Ultimately, I don't think I even disagree with you on lengths of suspensions or fines or what have you, but your constant hectoring tone makes Burke seem like a kindergarten teacher.

I'll use your post above as an example of how you, like many others make up quotes to insult the crediblity of others opinions. Personally, I dont' know why you do this, as your point of view isnt' terrifically difficult to defend.

What guy called a brutal assault "a friendly tap" or "a mistake"? You see how you do this? You invent part of the quote to serve your purpose of insulting the crediblitly of the poster. That's called lieing, and you're doing a disservice to Moore by not being credible with the facts. The quote was "a mistake", and by definition it was that. You want to call it an assault, fine by me.

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:19 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Gilmour's Way
well well look what i started
(heston)
DAMN YOU LEAF FANS !!!!

DAMN YOU TO HELL !!
(/heston)

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:57 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by quat
I'll use your post above as an example of how you, like many others make up quotes to insult the crediblity of others opinions. Personally, I dont' know why you do this, as your point of view isnt' terrifically difficult to defend.

What guy called a brutal assault "a friendly tap" or "a mistake"? You see how you do this? You invent part of the quote to serve your purpose of insulting the crediblitly of the poster. That's called lieing, and you're doing a disservice to Moore by not being credible with the facts. The quote was "a mistake", and by definition it was that. You want to call it an assault, fine by me.
What was responded to was: "a "vicious assault" lol give me a break - have you ever played hockey?". So no, the quote wasn't "a mistake". The original one by Burke was, but not the one responded to.

And where did I claim he said either of these things? They were obviously examples and not direct quotes, "a mistake" was used by Burke and "a friendly tap" is often used to trivialize physical contact that went to far. Surely the phrase is not foreign to you? That it wasn't a direct quote here I thought was somewhat clear. Was I mocking him? Sure. Did he deserve to be mocked for be mocked for that statement? Maybe, maybe not.

I'll ignore the rest of your attack, since you only brought up one point of substance (and then attatch a long list of offenses that are unsubstantiated, might want to try some introspection at some point). When you find others, feel free to point them out. Shouldn't be that hard since I "constantly spew venom, invent or distort information, and attack others points of view with lies or missinformation.". I would think you could have found a much better one than this one, which was very minor in nature (and resolved by the next post, where it was established that he didn't take this lightly and I acknowleged that). But with my constant offenses we can be confident that you will find a good one soon, eh?

But point taken. I probably am a bit too liberal with using "" to mark examples out and it could be misinterpreted as direct quotes by the guy I am responding to. Since this forum show what you actually are responding to, I would think this is not a big problem.

As for if Bertuzzis assault was a mistake or not. While it might fit the definition I think that anyone calling it that is trying to downplay the severity of it. You could call any act that has dire concequences a mistake. A murder. The Vietnam War. But the more severe the act you try to pass off as "a mistake" is, the more foolish you will look. Just my opinion (so I don't get accused for passing this one off as "lies or missinformation").


Last edited by Freudian: 03-13-2004 at 03:22 AM.
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Old
03-13-2004, 05:48 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
No one has argued that there isn't a good chance that Moore will have no permanent damage from this and will make a return to hockey.

Debating Burkes statements as to when Moore will make a comeback isn't dumb, especially since those statements seemed self-serving and there has been no confirmation from any of the treating doctors.

Or are you saying Burke is honest when he takes a "best case scenario for this type of injury" and equates it with Moores return to the Avs? Or is he speculating and being self-serving?

The radio here reported Burke spoke to some doctors and that was a normal prognosis for the injuries Moore has. So its average, or perhaps early in the normal range seen.

There may be some self-serving aspect there, but what do you expect him to do? His team has essentially been fined around 3/4 of a million dollars (the sallary and the fine to the team) and has lost one of their best players to an unprecedented suspension. A reasonable reaction would be to question it. Any good manager has to make sure everything was looked at by the NHL. There are reports the Avs withheld medical information, who were the only party to submit medical reports of any kind, for example.

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Old
03-13-2004, 01:16 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by rye&ginger
Not true.

And you are disgracing the victims of those murderers. Some Avs fans were calling Bertuzzi 'Osama'. Id' like to know what one of his victims family thinks about such a comparrison. I bet they would be insensed that a mass murderer can be compared in any way to this incident. Lets keep it real.
Again, I'm not trying to compare what Bertuzzi did to those people, but just saying that they made "mistakes" as well. I don't see how anyone can call a premediated assault from behind a "mistake". It just seems like that understates the magnitude of what Bert did.

There are a lot of stupid posters (for all teams). I know that Bert is taking a ton of heat (and some of it is way over the top).

I was just responding to certain ignorant posters that said that Moore deserved what happened to him.

What respected hockey person (as opposed to biased homer off this board) said that Moore's hit on Naslund was dirty? I don't remember any, and every player/commentator that commented said it was clean (or borderline at worst). There was no penalty on the play. The league reviewed the play and didn't issue a suspension. I just have a hard time stomaching people defending Bert and say he was right for doing what he did.

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:09 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
There are reports the Avs withheld medical information, who were the only party to submit medical reports of any kind, for example.
The Avs posted their second press release on their website the morning of the 10th...the day of the Bertuzzi hearing. It said (quote):

Vancouver Coastal Health is issuing the following update concerning Steve Moore at the request of his attending physicians.

Moore suffered a significant loss of consciousness at the time of the injury. He had a loss of memory for a period of time prior to and after the injury. He is currently stable, awake, and recovering.

Moore's injuries include the following:

- C3 and C4 transverse process spinal fractures
- Spine ligament injuries at the C3 and C4 level
- A closed head injury with concussion
- Multiple facial lacerations and abrasions

He is experiencing some post-concussion symptoms. His spinal cord and spinal nerves have not been injured. Moore remains an in-patient on the spinal ward at Vancouver General Hospital under close observation.

(end quote)

You can read the three press releases the Avs made on Steve Moore’s condition on the Avs site http://www.coloradoavalanche.com Click on news.

Since this information was available to the general public, it seems safe to assume that the Vancouver press had access to it as well as Colin Campbell.

Also, according to a Globe and Mail article, Colin Campbell spoke directly with the doctors AFTER the hearing. You can read his account of the procedure Colin Campbell followed here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...NStory/Sports/

Of particular relevance to this topic are the actions that Colin Campbell took immediately after the hearing. (quote)

‘Mr. Burke asked Mr. Campbell to look into Mr. Moore's medical reports because he was concerned after some news outlets reported that he had a broken neck, and about past incidents that Mr. Burke deemed similar.

Mr. Campbell conferred with hospital officials and reviewed the other incidents, and made up his mind on the punishment on Wednesday evening, but because Mr. Bertuzzi was going to make a statement that evening in Vancouver and the Canucks had a game, he waited until yesterday morning to deliver the news.’ (end quote)

The facts are out there. Unfortunately, it would seem there are some, even in the Vancouver media, who would rather believe Brian Burke’s smoke and mirrors defense than to question the actions of their GM, coach, and players.


Last edited by wazee: 03-13-2004 at 02:42 PM.
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Old
03-13-2004, 02:34 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota
Well i dont see people reporting this as well (if its true) and Burke even challenged reporters to make that front page news ... the fact that the recovery of the incident "could" be 4-6 weeks... im sure in 4-6 weeks this will be back page news and moore will be skating in practice with the team... and I hope he does... BUT IF HE DOES is it too much to ask the NHL to re-enstate BERTUZZI earlier? Again this is a hypothetical question... it comes back to the suspension being weighted heavily on the injury to the player which in this case it clearly was.... not that there is anything wrong with that but if the situation changes, does the suspension?

He was suspended for the attack not because of the injury. He is lucky he didn't get more

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Old
03-13-2004, 02:43 PM
  #83
rye&ginger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
What respected hockey person (as opposed to biased homer off this board) said that Moore's hit on Naslund was dirty?
There have been some that called is borderline, and a head shot.
Few that I have heard simply called it a clean check because it was directed at his head and Naslund didnt have the puck. Its hard to dig up the articles now because anything I search for brings up 100s of articles about this incident, but there has been credible people calling Moore's hit 'dangerous' for example.

Even Naslund, who many people quote as saying the hit was clean, questioned the respect factor: "I've seen it on TV and I know that I was in a vulnerable position and basically he took advantage of that," he said. "He got me with an elbow to the jaw, and that's how I got knocked out, and that's how I hit my head on the ice twice."

The NHL dropped the ball by not looking at it harder, and the comments the Canucks made. Perhaps this never would have happened if the NHL was more proactive in the first place.


And fair enoigh wazee. I guess the reports were wrong.


Last edited by rye&ginger: 03-13-2004 at 02:50 PM.
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Old
03-13-2004, 02:57 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
There have been some that called is borderline, and a head shot.
Few that I have heard simply called it a clean check because it was directed at his head and Naslund didnt have the puck. Its hard to dig up the articles now because anything I search for brings up 100s of articles about this incident, but there has been credible people calling Moore's hit 'dangerous' for example.

Even Naslund, who many people quote as saying the hit was clean, questioned the respect factor: "I've seen it on TV and I know that I was in a vulnerable position and basically he took advantage of that," he said. "He got me with an elbow to the jaw, and that's how I got knocked out, and that's how I hit my head on the ice twice."

The NHL dropped the ball by not looking at it harder, and the comments the Canucks made. Perhaps this never would have happened if the NHL was more proactive in the first place.


And fair enoigh wazee. I guess the reports were wrong.
I agree that it wasn't a lily-white hit, but I don't think a borderline hit justified what people were saying about Moore (that he deserved what happened to him).

The hit wasn't like McLaren's elbow to the head on Zednik. He kept he elbow down, and it happened to catch Naslund up high because Naslund was stretched out reaching for the puck. It was such a "bang/bang" type of play, that I didn't think it was dirty. Of course that's just must opinion.

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Old
03-14-2004, 08:43 AM
  #85
dakota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
He was suspended for the attack not because of the injury. He is lucky he didn't get more
Yes he was, but the suspension (Length) is a a major result of the injury... straight from Colin Campbells mouth... otherwise we are just talking about another Owen Nolan suspension...

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