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Old
03-12-2004, 11:33 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
when it comes to quality and competitive level of hockey I would compare the USHL and CIAU, not NCAA (certainly at the bigger schools).

CHL and NCAA are true comparisons because they both compete for the best players in North America at that age.
The CHL and NCAA are very different. NCAA is all about education and over-protection (players wearing cages....get real). Their rulebook is much more strict than the CHL, which basically uses the NHL rulebook plus no-touch icing.

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Old
03-12-2004, 11:38 AM
  #27
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Some of this stuff is true though. If Moore suffers a mild concussion instead on a broken neck, most people would be talking about the great chemistry in the Canucks locker room, how these guy fight for each other, etc. Don Cherry would probably be praising that good ole' canadian boy that plays the game the right way and honors the code.

We, Canadians, when it comes to hockey, are incredibly stupid sometimes.

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Old
03-12-2004, 11:41 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheZodiac
As far as Major Junior hockey, it's an absolute watered down pile of crap, the scouting is a joke, all they scout is big and zero talent. Give me NCAA game anyday over that pile of crap in the CHL.
Are you talking about the NHL scouting the CHL or CHL scouts? Cause last time I checked, Pierre-Marc Bouchard, Sidney Crosby and Sidney Croby were top picks in their respective Bantam drafts and none of them are taller than 5'11''. Not to mention the reigning CHL Player of the Year is Corey Locke. And if you are talking about the former, its not like NHL scouts only look at big players in the CHL. Big players are given precident in every league. Look at Zach Parise or Jiri Hudler. So don't make it seem like its just the CHL.

And as for watered down pile of crap, I don't really get that. Sure if you see teams like Minnesota and Michigan play it would be better than Saskatoon and Everett. But I'd take the latter game over a Trinity vs Wentworth game anyday.

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Old
03-12-2004, 11:43 AM
  #29
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People complain about the violence in hockey, proclaiming it "evil" and reasoning that's why it'll never become really popular in the USA. All the while, they are completely ignoring all the similar stuff that happens in other sports. In football, there are eye gouges at the bottom of scrums and pileups that are unseen by refs but seen by cameras, not to mention the helmet-leading hits that aren't called on a regular basis. People say that hockey players take any chance to "take out" opposing star players and it's wrong. What do you think a linebacker does when he's lining a quarterback up for a sack?
Basketball players get so many elbows and fingers flying into eyes, it's quite amazing nothing serious happens on a regular basis. Players jockeying for position in the post is no different from a guy standing in front of the net trying to screen a goalie. If basketball players knew how to throw a punch, there certainly would be more injuries when a fight breaks out.
Baseball has its own form of revenge. You hit my player with a pitch, I hit yours. It seems like an "unwritten rule" and you see it all the time. Biggest example was Roger Clemens beaning Mike Piazza in the head and it caused Piazza to miss a bunch of games with a concussion. Clemens didn't get suspended for it and neither were the pitchers who hit players on subsequent pitches in the following innings. Oh yeah, and baseball is the only major sport that still has bench clearing brawls.

Hockey is not understood, so when something like this comes up, it is a perfect time to vilify it. Rather than learning about the game and why things can happen, those who don't understand it would rather mock it and shun it. Meanwhile, the crap that happens in the sports they DO understand is brushed off as "just a part of the game".

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Old
03-12-2004, 12:04 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes
I guess some people should pick a kinder, gentler sport to watch.. like knitting.
Knitting is a sport?

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Old
03-12-2004, 12:05 PM
  #31
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Why are there so many American vs. Canadian discussions going on in these threads??? Is it really that big of a problem? I dont think so at all. We are basically all the same kind of people. Lets find something else to talk about. I love the US, I love Canada. I am a North American. Whats the point of going back and forth in a nationality discussion? Its very childish.

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Old
03-12-2004, 12:42 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Why are there so many American vs. Canadian discussions going on in these threads??? Is it really that big of a problem? I dont think so at all. We are basically all the same kind of people. Lets find something else to talk about. I love the US, I love Canada. I am a North American. Whats the point of going back and forth in a nationality discussion? Its very childish.
I think the the biggest reason is that journalists and supposed professionals out there are turning it into a Canada vs. US issue. We're arguing, well at least I am arguing, that it's not a Canadian issue and that it's more of byproduct of the sport, not a mentality of a nation.

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Old
03-12-2004, 12:45 PM
  #33
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My apologies to the administrators, and members, of HFBoards for what they call spamming. It was not my intent to spam but rather give this article a wider audience by posting to three boards. Again, I had no ill intent and apologize.

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Old
03-12-2004, 01:41 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
The CHL and NCAA are very different. NCAA is all about education and over-protection (players wearing cages....get real). Their rulebook is much more strict than the CHL, which basically uses the NHL rulebook plus no-touch icing.
You have just made the point about the difference between Canadian style hockey and in this case, NCAA. The NCAA protects its players. The NHL could care less.

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Old
03-12-2004, 01:57 PM
  #35
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Canadians pride themselves on being tougher and meaner on the ice than any other country. Americans are probably the second dirtiest country right behind Canada because if you're any good around here chances are you were taught by a Canadian.

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03-12-2004, 02:25 PM
  #36
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All you have to do on this issue to see why there is a problem is read the various posts on the threads related to this issue over the past - there is a "culture" in and around the game of hockey that believes that it is inherently a violent sport, that the best check on the really dirty stuff is by "enforcement" by guys selected for that sole purpose (i.e. of pounding the crap out of anyone who offends the "code" or as Hitchcock said - to "feed him his lunch"), that the problem isn't that there is too much violence but that the instigator rule has made players lose the "fear factor" that was really behind so-called respect, and so on.

I think that many, including Don Cherry, would agree that this "culture" has more sway in Canada than in Europe, or the NCAA, or wherever else. Many posters are proud of this.

And the article doesn't claim this "culture" only exists in Canada - just that the stats and the commentary (and the posters defending it) are more Canadian than from elsewhere.

As a Canadian who played for almost 20 years, coached for another 15, and watched all my life - the article is not wrong.

From Novice hockey up, there are great coaches and organizations that show and teach and live respect, good sportsmanship, hard play, proper use of physical force for impact on play and, yes, for intimidation. But there are way too many on the benches and in the stands that just plain like to see kids pound someone else - and despite the fact that they stand "appalled" when someone gets hurt, they get off on the fighting and cheer the blood. And, yes, too many of them are in or from Canada - whether they are the Crawfords or the Hitchcocks, or in the CHA, or in Tier 2 Junior, or wherever.

Is this unique to hockey - not in type but probably in scope. It is high time to fix it.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:00 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelovesshanny
im an american and i fully agree with you. mr. kelley is a dimwit. its not only these ugly hits that are hurting the marketability of the sport its jackasses like this guy who decide they dont like hockey just right off the bat. in general people who arent fans of hockey have never been fans of hockey in the first place. they refuse to even try to understand the sport.
Jim Kelley was covering hockey before you were born. He's also a three time president of the Professional Hockey Writers Association and serves on the Hockey Hall of Fame selection committee. I may not always agree with Kelley, although in this case I do, but it's ludicrous to suggest he doesn't have the background to know what he's talking about.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:05 PM
  #38
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Defending Canadian Hockey

I think that the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association started moving away from the tough guy mentality 6 years ago. It started out with kids programs that emphasized skill development over tough play. The novice, atom, and Pee Wee programs all contain coaching directives that teach sportsmanship and skill first. All coaches and parents are required to watch video's aimed at kids enjoying the game. Arena's are filled with posters adhering to sportsmanship, ads are on TV promoting enjoyment, and in general the game and arena atmosphere in Canada is improving.

As a parent of 3 boys (aged 5-14) who all play hockey, I can tell you that the program is working. I really feel that the impact of this program will be seen with the next generation of Canadian Hockey players. It is rare today to see a coach who actively sends kids out to hurt other players. It is also rare to see the idiotic parent yelling at the kids and officials in minor hockey. Peer pressure is forming at the grass roots, and more respect is creeping into the game.

The ironic thing that I can tell you is this. Mr Kelley believes that the Canadian game is responsible for hockey troubles. He should visit northern US rinks, as I do with kids tournaments. Believe me that the US would sure benefit from a program similar to that adopted by the CAHA. I have never seen so many people enamored with yelling for fights, berating officials, and showing poor sportsmanship at kids tournaments in the US.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:15 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by membleypeg
The ironic thing that I can tell you is this. Mr Kelley believes that the Canadian game is responsible for hockey troubles. He should visit northern US rinks, as I do with kids tournaments. Believe me that the US would sure benefit from a program similar to that adopted by the CAHA. I have never seen so many people enamored with yelling for fights, berating officials, and showing poor sportsmanship at kids tournaments in the US.
That's a separate issue and it happens in all sports. Mostly it's the parents and it really ruins it for the kids. Kelley is addressing something that's more culturally ingrained. It's nice to hear things are turning around. It's something we can all do without wherever we live. I think it's up to the NHL to set a good example if we're to see an end to this nonsense. Ultimately, that's who the kids look up to.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:17 PM
  #40
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I think

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Daddy
How about comparing apples to apples, like the NCAA vs CIAU and not the WHL.
The comparison, is the top level of amateur hockey in both countries...has nothing to do with one being college, and one not.


I thought this was a good article...interesting POV. Hard to argue with the facts he's put out there.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:18 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
Jim Kelley was covering hockey before you were born. He's also a three time president of the Professional Hockey Writers Association and serves on the Hockey Hall of Fame selection committee. I may not always agree with Kelley, although in this case I do, but it's ludicrous to suggest he doesn't have the background to know what he's talking about.
I would say that this is a pretty complete answer...

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:29 PM
  #42
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horrible argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehc73
In football, there are eye gouges at the bottom of scrums and pileups that are unseen by refs but seen by cameras, not to mention the helmet-leading hits that aren't called on a regular basis. People say that hockey players take any chance to "take out" opposing star players and it's wrong. What do you think a linebacker does when he's lining a quarterback up for a sack?

Biggest example was Roger Clemens beaning Mike Piazza in the head and it caused Piazza to miss a bunch of games with a concussion. Clemens didn't get suspended for it and neither were the pitchers who hit players on subsequent pitches in the following innings. Oh yeah, and baseball is the only major sport that still has bench clearing brawls.
The things that happen at the bottom of scrums....that's something you hear about...it's not EVER seen. In football the MAIN purpose of most of the players on the field, is to hit the opponent. Last I checked, that wasn't one of the primary skills in hockey (skating, passing, shooting).

If MLB could have PROVED Clemens threw at Piazza intentionally, he would have been suspended. It's hard to PROVE intent, when there are so many mechanics involved in throwing a baseball 97 mph.

One thing you're right about...MLB does still have bench clearing brawls, and I think they stink.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:32 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud The Spud
Knitting is a sport?
Why do you think Shayne Corson left the Queefs?

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:38 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud The Spud
Knitting is a sport?

Apparently you missed a good movie if you don't know where that quote was from.. too bad..

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:47 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamcaper
Please check out this article which was posted on ESPN regarding the NHL and "Canadian" hockey in general. There are some very disturbing and upsetting remarks made about Canada and the mentality when it comes to the game. I'm submitting an email to Mr. Kelley voicing my displeasure and I urge you do the same please:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...jim&id=1757143
I think this was a poorly written article filled with generalizations and misconceptions. Filled withhypocracy and filled with one sided examples.
He seems to be equating an after the whistle scrum, to the act that Bertuzzi commited on Moore.

I am sorry, but every Canadian hockey player is not as mindless as Bert and Domi.

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Old
03-12-2004, 04:57 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes
Apparently you missed a good movie if you don't know where that quote was from.. too bad..
I guess so...because when I read that, it wasn't funny.

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Old
03-12-2004, 05:00 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Buoy
We, Canadians, when it comes to hockey, are incredibly stupid sometimes.
Don't say "we, Canadians" because then you're including me in that group. It's some Canadians, just like it's some Americans, some Czechs, and some Finns.

Kelley's whole article makes that assumption, which is why I disagree with it. Thankfully, I don't think there are near enough morons like Cherry to say plays like Bertuzzi's are "Canada's culture."

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Old
03-12-2004, 05:14 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
Jim Kelley was covering hockey before you were born. He's also a three time president of the Professional Hockey Writers Association and serves on the Hockey Hall of Fame selection committee. I may not always agree with Kelley, although in this case I do, but it's ludicrous to suggest he doesn't have the background to know what he's talking about.
In all fairness, a good resume doesn't necessarily result in good quality.

Jim Kelley's article takes the subject of unacceptable violence in hockey as we all witnessed on Monday night and applies it to the mindset of one country exclusively simply because it is the popular opinion of the day.

I think these "experts" (and there are certainly alot of new ones today) need to figure out that the incident they are reporting on, has nothing to do with what is deemed as acceptable violence in the sport. Do Canadians like the contact in hockey or fighting? Absolutely, but what does Monday's incident have to do with that?

In his list of most heinous hockey villans, where are Keith Tkachuk, Chris Chelios, Darian Hatcher, Tom Barasso, Chris Nilan (and so on and so on).

Why does he villify an entire country for appreciating a game that has always been played with an edge while ignoring how hockey markets in a neighbouring country will embrace the same thing? There weren't a whole lot of empty seats in Philly during the rein of the Broadstreet Bullies, there certainly weren't alot of Americans that were condemning them when they ran the Russians out of their rink, there weren't a whole lot of people vilifying Stan Jonathan in the old Boston Garden, they didn't hold a Rob Ray night in Buffalo because of his 50 goal seasons.

The so called "violent" parts of the game that are suddenly unacceptable today have always been embraced by hockey traditionalists in all NA hockey markets.

Perhaps if he wishes to call out professionals in sports, he should bring to light some more serious questions.

Such as why a country will not only defend but embrace an athelete accused of **** while vilifying the victim, why a country needs to hide the use of Steroids in both professional and Amateur sports, how it's ok to idolize a cross dressing basketball player that will kick a photgrapher in the groin for sitting too close to the side lines and so on...

Yes there are some incidents in hockey that are regretable, but when 23 guys skate into an arena to face off against 23 other guys knowing full well how the game has always been played and accepting the risks, why are they being condemned for their actions? The fans enter the arena to watch exactly what they bring on 99.9% of the nights they play, including the fighting and body checking.

And yet this seems to be a bigger problem than the off ice incidents that plague the "better" professional leagues in the U.S.

As Mr. Kelley proudly points out,
America also has a criminal element in many of its sports, but it seldom manifests itself on the playing surfaces of the NFL, Major League Baseball or the NBA. With a few notable exceptions, those despicable acts generally take place outside of the actual games, in large part because the leagues simply don't tolerate them.

Boy it's a good thing to because if they took place on the courts and fields of the other major league sports, we would be watching a bunch of guys doing drugs, arranging hits, shooting each other and be forced to watch some unsuspecting girl ....

Yup, priorities in sports sure create a strange and wacky world....

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03-12-2004, 05:31 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue

As Mr. Kelley proudly points out,
America also has a criminal element in many of its sports, but it seldom manifests itself on the playing surfaces of the NFL, Major League Baseball or the NBA. With a few notable exceptions, those despicable acts generally take place outside of the actual games, in large part because the leagues simply don't tolerate them.

Boy it's a good thing to because if they took place on the courts and fields of the other major league sports, we would be watching a bunch of guys doing drugs, arranging hits, shooting each other and be forced to watch some unsuspecting girl ....

Yup, priorities in sports sure create a strange and wacky world....
What I found odd about that statement is the fact that the criminal element rarely manifests itself in hockey as well.
The Bert incident is a blemish no doubt, but to suggest that this type of thuggery goes on in this sport more so than it does in others is ludicrous.
There are incidents that have happened in baseball, football and basketball that have a certain criminal element to them, which happen during the game (or as a direct result of the game). Yet these incidents are just as few and far between as the Bertuzzi incident.

Which is why I do not support this article. It has to many ignorant staements in it.

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Old
03-12-2004, 05:58 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed
Jim Kelley was covering hockey before you were born. He's also a three time president of the Professional Hockey Writers Association and serves on the Hockey Hall of Fame selection committee. I may not always agree with Kelley, although in this case I do, but it's ludicrous to suggest he doesn't have the background to know what he's talking about.
i was saying that this is a general opinion of people who are not followers of the sport. i could care less who he is.

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