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ESPN breaks down deadline deals from a GM perspective

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03-02-2009, 06:48 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by 3TB3 View Post
missed the playoffs because of his using huet the last game off an injury layup. also did NOT bolster that team at trade deadline and ate souray after not trading him and not resigning him.


at one time this was a winners city- a city of winners and if habs got beat in stanley cup finals it was a terrible year.
Why would he trade Souray when the team was in full playoff hunt mode? You'd trade away your top scoring defenceman when you're trying to qualify for the playoffs? What kind of message would that send to the team? Furthermore, he did try to sign Souray, he offered him the contract that Hamrlik finally got. It's not like he didn't try, Souray just preferred coming home and play for his home province. Are you going to say that Hamrlik is a terrible signing now?

Furthermore, the thing about the Stanley cup finals, you talk as if it's still 1950 and there are only 6 teams in the league. We're in 2009, there are 30 teams vying for the same thing, and there's a salary cap. Having a team with Richard, Béliveau, Geoffrion, Plante, Harvey in this modern era would be impossible to have.

Hockey has evolved, I think it's time that you evolve with it.

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03-02-2009, 07:02 PM
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I'd read the article before taking shots at the OP. If this is true I've never read such an in depth description of a GMs on trade deadline day.

Did you read the timeline given by Waddell? Shero wasn't even sure about adding Armstrong until 2:50+. How the **** would he have told Gainey what Shero was offering.


Definitely a must read article.
First of all, yes I did read the article.... not sure how you gathered that I didn't. Even more puzzling is, how you somehow figured I was "taking a shot" at the OP. Huh?

All I was pointing out was that Gainey *did* have a chance to match the offer cause he *did* know in advance what it was going to take from a Pittsburgh perspective.

The issue is your not following what I'm saying. Yes Shero *agreed* to add Armstrong at the last minute, but Waddell had *requested* him before that.

So Gainey was told that a deal was not done cause Waddell was waiting on Pittsburgh, and he was told what the Penguins deal was, and if he could top that deal, well, obviously there's no point in waiting on Pittsburgh. Gainey likely thought that the Penguins wouldn't meet that price, so he was waiting for Waddell to blink.

In the end, Shero did meet the price.

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03-02-2009, 07:04 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
According to his statement, even Waddell didn't know if Shero would throw in Armstrong until 2:57, three minutes before the deadline. The deal was closed immediately after Shero agreed, meaning that Gainey never had a chance to match and had no time to use these assets to make other deals. It wasn't at all nice of Waddell to keep us on the hook and monopolize our assets, while he was covering his bases. The only mistake we made, IMO, was not putting a deadline on our offer. Since we had been discussing the deal with Waddell for several days and he knew what we were offering, we should have given him until 2:30pm to make a decision. If he hadn't agreed by then, we should have let him know of our intention to pull the offer.
Again, Gainey didn't know the Shero was going to include Armstrong, but he *did* know that Waddell was asking for him. Until Waddell got a hard "no" from the Pens, the deal was still in play and Montreal's offer was still in play.

To say it wasn't nice of Waddell is silly - obviously Gainey holds no grudge, he made a deal with the Thrashers this year to pick up Schneider - Waddell was just doing his job, trying to maximize his asset. Gainey's frustration, if it exists, would stem from the evening before the deadline, because that's when he thought he had a deal for Marian Hossa. At around midnight or so they allegedly closed a deal that would be faxed into the league office in the morning only to be told the next morning that a "wrinkle" had surfaced - believed to be the Detroit Red Wings expressing interest. Waddell was very keen on Valteri Fillippula so that dance dragged on for a good chunk of the morning with Gainey waiting.


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03-02-2009, 07:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 3TB3 View Post
missed the playoffs because of his using huet the last game off an injury layup. also did NOT bolster that team at trade deadline and ate souray after not trading him and not resigning him.

didnt bolster last years team at deadline - benched ryder ate him and streit in july getting nothing in return.

never won 2 series here in one year. never came close in either 2nd series the habs got to.

at one time this was a winners city- a city of winners and if habs got beat in stanley cup finals it was a terrible year.

you gainey supporters are what vince lombardi once said, "the only good loser is a loser."
Go back on the RDS talkbacks please.

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03-02-2009, 07:07 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by 3TB3 View Post
missed the playoffs because of his using huet the last game off an injury layup. also did NOT bolster that team at trade deadline and ate souray after not trading him and not resigning him.

didnt bolster last years team at deadline - benched ryder ate him and streit in july getting nothing in return.

never won 2 series here in one year. never came close in either 2nd series the habs got to.

at one time this was a winners city- a city of winners and if habs got beat in stanley cup finals it was a terrible year.

you gainey supporters are what vince lombardi once said, "the only good loser is a loser."

You're (1) criticizing Gainey for not bolstering the 2007 team in the lead up to the playoffs and (2) in the same breath you then blast him for not depleting our team and trading Souray at the deadline. You then do the same thing with Streit and Ryder last year. This is exactly the neurotic and irrational criticism that I think is typical of Gainey-haters.

Gainey chose in those years to be a buyer and not a seller (except in the case of Huet because Price was ready). And he didn't fail in his bid to be a buyer by not getting Hossa or some other overpriced rent-a-player. Hossa was way too costly...as the Pens struggles this year attest to. And in case you think that it was a mistake to be a buyer: You will not find a GM in the league who has a team in 1st - 10th place and decides to sell roster players for draft picks and risk missing the playoffs. Not one.


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03-02-2009, 07:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Again, Gainey didn't know the Shero was going to include Armstrong, but he *did* know that Waddell was asking for him. Until Waddell got a hard "no" from the Pens, the deal was still in play and Montreal's offer was still in play.
We don't know what Gainey knew or didn't so let's not speculate on something we have no idea about.

We came close but in the end didn't overpay. Case closed.

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03-02-2009, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
We don't know what Gainey knew or didn't so let's not speculate on something we have no idea about.

We came close but in the end didn't overpay. Case closed.
If you say so.

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03-02-2009, 07:11 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
If you say so.
Well, do we know for sure if he knew or not? No so why argue about it?

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03-02-2009, 07:12 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Again, Gainey didn't know the Shero was going to include Armstrong, but he *did* know that Waddell was asking for him. Until Waddell got a hard "no" from the Pens, the deal was still in play and Montreal's offer was still in play.
I don't know where you read that Gainey knew what Waddell was demanding from Shero (?) but it doesn't even matter. Waddell said that if the deal with Shero fell through the Habs would have had Hossa. In other words, until 2:57 Gainey's offer for Hossa was the best one. Gainey may not have been prepared to go further than his offer but he should be commended for that, not criticized. You don't go after players at any price. The pens gave up too much for Hossa and if you need any proof, just look at them this year. In that case, why would we criticize Gainey for not giving up more than the Pens?


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03-02-2009, 07:20 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
Well, do we know for sure if he knew or not? No so why argue about it?
It's a long story I'd rather not get into here.

Though it is odd that all the people that thought I was full of **** about the Hossa trade last year are strangely quiet now that an article came out confirming every thing I said.

Funny how that works.

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03-02-2009, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
I don't know where you read that Gainey knew what Waddell was demanding from Shero (?) but it doesn't even matter. Waddell said that if the deal with Shero fell through the Habs would have had Hossa. In other words, until 2:57 Gainey's offer for Hossa was the best one. Gainey may not have been prepared to go further than his offer but he should be commended for that, not criticized. You don't go after players at any price. The pens gave up too much for Hossa and if you need any proof, just look at them this year. In that case, why would we criticize Gainey for not giving up more than the Pens?
I didn't "read" it anywhere. Common sense dictates that a GM trying to create the best market possible for his player is going to say Team A is offering X, Y, and Z. However, to close the deal they must also include player B. If you want to add so-and-so, we've got a deal, if you don't want to match this, I'm gonna wait and see how this plays out.

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03-02-2009, 07:26 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post

To say it wasn't nice of Waddell is silly - obviously Gainey holds no grudge, he made a deal with the Thrashers this year to pick up Schneider - Waddell was just doing his job, trying to maximize his asset. Gainey's frustration, if it exists, would stem from the evening before the deadline, because that's when he thought he had a deal for Marian Hossa. At around midnight or so they allegedly closed a deal that would be faxed into the league office in the morning only to be told the next morning that a "wrinkle" had surfaced - believed to be the Detroit Red Wings expressing interest. Waddell was very keen on Valteri Fillippula so that dance dragged on for a good chunk of the morning with Gainey waiting.
It's not about grudges. If you've ever made an offer in a negotiation to purchase anything, you will understand the ethical problem here. I work in a supply side business, much like the NHL is a seller's market at the trade deadline and this kind of abuse of someone else's assets is generally frowned upon and I tend to think it's for good reason.

Even if your speculation is correct about the sequence of events, I still have a problem with what Waddell did.

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03-02-2009, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
I didn't "read" it anywhere. Common sense dictates that a GM trying to create the best market possible for his player is going to say Team A is offering X, Y, and Z. However, to close the deal they must also include player B. If you want to add so-and-so, we've got a deal, if you don't want to match this, I'm gonna wait and see how this plays out.

"Common sense" is a common cop out. Let's stick to what we know, which is what Waddell says in the article. You don't know if Gainey knew what Waddell was looking for from Pittsburgh but I'm not even sure that matters. If you were Waddell and I were Gainey, and you told me that you wanted Armstrong from Pittsburgh but that he so far wasn't included in the deal, and I thought Hossa wasn't worth that, why would I raise my bid? I would tell you to take my offer because it's the best one and it's actually on the table. You don't get coerced into raising your bid. The seller sets his price. You set yours. That's it.

It turns out that Hossa wasn't worth it.

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03-02-2009, 07:54 PM
  #39
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To understand why I have a problem with what Waddell did, consider the following scenario:

Imagine for one minute that Pittsburgh wasn't in the running for Hossa. Now imagine that at 2:30 Gainey had told Waddell he was ready to give up player X, Y, Z and B...by far the best offer but Gainey needed 10 minutes to finalize. 29 minutes later he pulls the offer off the table and trades these players to another team, leaving Waddell stuck with Hossa and probably a pink slip. In this hypothetical situation, Gainey doesn't treat Waddell with the kind of respect you would expect between professionals - heck, he basically screws Waddell here. It's just a ****** thing to do.

I think this most effectively illustrates my complaint.

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03-02-2009, 07:57 PM
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It's not about grudges. If you've ever made an offer in a negotiation to purchase anything, you will understand the ethical problem here. I work in a supply side business, much like the NHL is a seller's market at the trade deadline and this kind of abuse of someone else's assets is generally frowned upon and I tend to think it's for good reason.

Even if your speculation is correct about the sequence of events, I still have a problem with what Waddell did.
Waddell did nothing unethical. He never lied to Gainey, he never misled him and he never made him any promises.

His job, as the General Manager of the Atlanta Thrashers is to give them the best possible roster he can. In trading Marian Hossa, he knew he was moving a dead asset (he made it clear he would not re-sign with the club) that luckily had tremendous value.

Unless he was given and offer that absolutely blew his socks off, his best move, his smartest move, was to hold on to that asset for as long as possible, because every day closer to the deadline, that asset gains value.

He sat on it as long as he could, literally down to the last minute, and maximized his asset as much as he could then cashed in. And in my opinion, he did very well.

At no point was Gainey under the impression that he was doing anything but that. It's simply how the game is played, it happens every year at the deadline. Gainey, it seems, felt he had a very strong offer, and according to this article Waddell felt he did too, until very late in the day.

Gainey made the call to hold firm on the offer and see how it played out. He could have gone to a plan B and picked up some other player instead of waiting. He choose not to. He clearly would have known that it was possible the Thrashers could decide to trade him elsewhere if another team stepped up. It was a risk he felt was worth taking it seems. It very well could have gone his way.

I don't see what Waddell did wrong here.


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03-02-2009, 07:59 PM
  #41
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Waddell did nothing unethical. He never lied to Gainey, he never misled him and he never made him any promises.

His job, as the General Manager of the Atlanta Thrashers is to give them the best possible roster he can. In trading Marian Hossa, he knew he was moving a dead asset (he made it clear he would not re-sign with the club) that luckily had tremendous value.

Unless he was given and offer that absolutely blew his socks off, his best move, his smartest move, was to hold on to that asset for as long as possible, because every day closer to the deadline, that asset gains value.

He sat on it as long as he could, literally down to the last minute, and maximized his asset as much as he could then cashed in. And in my opinion, he did very well.

At no point was Gainey under the impression that he was doing anything but that. It's simply how the game is played, it happens every year at the deadline. Gainey, it seems, felt he had a very strong offer, and according to this article Waddell felt he did too, until very late in the day.

Gainey made the call to hold firm on the offer and see how it played out. He couldn't have gone to a plan B and picked up some other player instead of waiting. He choose not to. He clearly would have known that it was possible the Thrashers could decide to trade him elsewhere if another team stepped up. It was a risk he felt was worth taking it seems. It very well could have gone his way.

I don't see what Waddell did wrong here.

You were probably writing while I was. Look at the post directly above yours. I illustrate my problem best there. It's not just wrong according to any law but it's unethical.

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03-02-2009, 08:00 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
"You don't get coerced into raising your bid
If you honestly believe that NHL General Managers don't get coerced into raising their bids at the Trade Deadline and during Unrestricted Free Agency in the summer I really don't know what else to say.

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03-02-2009, 08:06 PM
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To understand why I have a problem with what Waddell did, consider the following scenario:

Imagine for one minute that Pittsburgh wasn't in the running for Hossa. Now imagine that at 2:30 Gainey had told Waddell he was ready to give up player X, Y, Z and B...by far the best offer but Gainey needed 10 minutes to finalize. 29 minutes later he pulls the offer off the table and trades these players to another team, leaving Waddell stuck with Hossa and probably a pink slip. In this hypothetical situation, Gainey doesn't treat Waddell with the kind of respect you would expect between professionals - heck, he basically screws Waddell here. It's just a ****** thing to do.

I think this most effectively illustrates my complaint.
But you've added a significant wrinkle, perhaps unknowingly to your scenario.

They way yours plays out, it turns out Gainey was negotiating with another team for those very same players he was going to offer for Hossa. BUT HE DOESN'T TELL THAT TO WADDELL. He never indicates that he's shopping those guys around and looking, obviously, to make the best deal possibly.

But what I was talking about was Waddell saying, I'm moving Hossa today. Best offer gets him. If you give me these guys, he's yours.

Gainey makes a good offer, not the exact request, but the best one on the table. Waddell says... we'll see if this is good enough. Time ticks away. A better offer surfaces... WADDELL TELLS GAINEY, Pittsburgh's now in on this. If they add Armstong, done deal, if you add Player X (speculated to be Chris Higgins) he's yours. Gainey opts not too, holding out on the Pens not adding Armstong. And he loses.

But Waddell, shows him the professional courtesy of saying, here's whats up. Gainey, in the end, doesn't do it. In your scenario, it's not about making a choice, it's someone getting screwed.

Massive difference.

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03-02-2009, 08:12 PM
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If you honestly believe that NHL General Managers don't get coerced into raising their bids at the Trade Deadline and during Unrestricted Free Agency in the summer I really don't know what else to say.
You do see some desperate moves in the NHL because some markets are desperate. But that doesn't mean Gainey should and that's the whole point. I think he does good business while many other organizations don't (but mostly because they don't have a choice).

At the end of the day, my point is that Gainey may have known what Waddell wanted for Hossa or he may not have, but he was right not to match. The Penguins' depleted core is the reason they went from Cup contender to playoff contender. I don't wish that on our team and I know Gainey doesn't.

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03-02-2009, 08:32 PM
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But you've added a significant wrinkle, perhaps unknowingly to your scenario.

They way yours plays out, it turns out Gainey was negotiating with another team for those very same players he was going to offer for Hossa. BUT HE DOESN'T TELL THAT TO WADDELL. He never indicates that he's shopping those guys around and looking, obviously, to make the best deal possibly.

But what I was talking about was Waddell saying, I'm moving Hossa today. Best offer gets him. If you give me these guys, he's yours.

Gainey makes a good offer, not the exact request, but the best one on the table. Waddell says... we'll see if this is good enough. Time ticks away. A better offer surfaces... WADDELL TELLS GAINEY, Pittsburgh's now in on this. If they add Armstong, done deal, if you add Player X (speculated to be Chris Higgins) he's yours. Gainey opts not too, holding out on the Pens not adding Armstong. And he loses.

But Waddell, shows him the professional courtesy of saying, here's whats up. Gainey, in the end, doesn't do it. In your scenario, it's not about making a choice, it's someone getting screwed.

Massive difference.

It wouldn't matter to me whether he tells him or not. As you point out, it's obvious. My problem is specifically withholding a decision until the deadline when you're soliciting prospective buyers and not giving those other buyers time to make decisions. You're arguing that it violates nothing concrete and that Waddell did his duty for Atlanta. I'm saying that for the buyers - your colleagues - it is professionally disrespectful and you embarrass the guy in front of his bosses. Waddell would have received a pink slip if the shoe was on the other foot and he wouldn't have liked it.

Regardless, I think we've become distracted from the point. Gainey elected not to pursue Hossa at what I think was an outrageous price. It's a price that killed the Penguins and the deal worked out for neither team. The Penguins are a shadow of 2008 and Atlanta is still a bottom feeding, dying franchise. Waddell hasn't done much right in his tenure there. With Gainey, the Habs have over the long term improved and will continue that trend. That's really the point here as far as I can recall.

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03-02-2009, 09:37 PM
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It wouldn't matter to me whether he tells him or not. As you point out, it's obvious. My problem is specifically withholding a decision until the deadline when you're soliciting prospective buyers and not giving those other buyers time to make decisions. You're arguing that it violates nothing concrete and that Waddell did his duty for Atlanta. I'm saying that for the buyers - your colleagues - it is professionally disrespectful and you embarrass the guy in front of his bosses. Waddell would have received a pink slip if the shoe was on the other foot and he wouldn't have liked it.

Regardless, I think we've become distracted from the point. Gainey elected not to pursue Hossa at what I think was an outrageous price. It's a price that killed the Penguins and the deal worked out for neither team. The Penguins are a shadow of 2008 and Atlanta is still a bottom feeding, dying franchise. Waddell hasn't done much right in his tenure there. With Gainey, the Habs have over the long term improved and will continue that trend. That's really the point here as far as I can recall.
I agree with all of this except one minor point - you can't blame the Penguins woes this season entirely on this trade depleting their core.

In free agency, the Penguins lost Marian Hossa, Ryan Malone, Gary Roberts, Georges Laraque, Jarkko Ruutu and Adam Hall. That's two full lines of NHL forwards leaving the team. You can't overlook that. It's a massive loss and a major strain on the Penguins depth.

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