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Havelid to The Devils: Now What???

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Old
03-02-2009, 11:49 PM
  #51
teme
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You'll like him, stylewise he'll fit Thrashers and Anderson lot better than Devils. My Salmela image: I think it was QFs overtime last WCs, which is about as much pressure as it gets. Salmela goes after the puck behind USA net and dishes a backhand saucer pass to the slot. The guy has balls, yes he can be bit reckless at times, but that is a nicer problem to have than the opposite. He took his time to grow up on and off the ice, he'll learn to pick his spots and that is something that can be coached.

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03-03-2009, 12:25 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
When has Waddell EVER done anything that makes sense? Instead of stocking up on 4th lines centers/forward, he is now stocking up on 7th defensemen!!
Rich Peverley, Todd White, and arguably Eric Belanger (if he had stayed) say hi.

Before Belkin was driven out of Atlanta Spirit taking 30% of funds to the team away, DW had the budget to have Hossa and Kovalchuk on the same team and brought in guys like Havelid. We had an above average salary before the reprocussions of the ownership court battle sunk in. Has DW spent money wisely before and after then? Not really, but it's not like he's a moron who wants to bring in guys like Niko Kapanen when given the choice. Jason Williams was a great idea...nobody knew that he'd be a chemistry disaster here.

In my book, a 7th defenseman is a guy who has already played a full season's worth of games and isn't quite up to NHL levels but is too good for the AHL. Kinda like Kiwi last year. A young crazy Finn with crazy skills who needs to come up through our system isn't a 7th Dman. He's a project, but not a has been yet.

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03-03-2009, 01:40 AM
  #53
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I say throw the kid in the lineup ASAP, see if he clicks with anybody, and let him take his knocks just like Bogosian and Valabik already are, now not later. Let the kids have as much exposure now for what they need to work on in the offseason to be prepared for next season. Look at the strides Little made between his first and second year.

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03-03-2009, 02:09 AM
  #54
Norm MacDonald
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
Rich Peverley, Todd White, and arguably Eric Belanger (if he had stayed) say hi.
If that's the biggest accomplishments a GM can put on his resume, that's pretty pathetic. Even the most die hard Thrashers fan must admit that Waddell is an utterly horrendous GM. If you want me to go in specifics, I will... but empirical evidence proves that he is one of the worst general managers in the history of the NHL. On a team with any sort of cohesive ownership, he'd be long gone, but since ASG is split there is nobody to fire him.

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03-03-2009, 02:24 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
If that's the biggest accomplishments a GM can put on his resume, that's pretty pathetic. Even the most die hard Thrashers fan must admit that Waddell is an utterly horrendous GM. If you want me to go in specifics, I will... but empirical evidence proves that he is one of the worst general managers in the history of the NHL. On a team with any sort of cohesive ownership, he'd be long gone, but since ASG is split there is nobody to fire him.
Mike Milbury is the worst GM in the history of the NHL. Waddell may be up there, but he has nothing on Milbury.

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03-03-2009, 08:34 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
If that's the biggest accomplishments a GM can put on his resume, that's pretty pathetic. Even the most die hard Thrashers fan must admit that Waddell is an utterly horrendous GM. If you want me to go in specifics, I will... but empirical evidence proves that he is one of the worst general managers in the history of the NHL. On a team with any sort of cohesive ownership, he'd be long gone, but since ASG is split there is nobody to fire him.
I'm pretty sure those aren't even in the top 10 of what DW has done, but don't let that get in the way of hyperbole. You yourself admit that ownership is in a shambles. I don't suppose there's any chance that he's been handcuffed for the last 2 or 3 years? The owners have admitted that they've thrown $150M into a hole with this team (150M they can't really afford). It's not a big step to figure that they've told DW to spend as little as he can without getting into trouble with the league.

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03-03-2009, 09:21 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
If that's the biggest accomplishments a GM can put on his resume, that's pretty pathetic. Even the most die hard Thrashers fan must admit that Waddell is an utterly horrendous GM. If you want me to go in specifics, I will... but empirical evidence proves that he is one of the worst general managers in the history of the NHL. On a team with any sort of cohesive ownership, he'd be long gone, but since ASG is split there is nobody to fire him.
If DW hadn't made those '05 trades, he'd be very average in everyone's opinion. Don't forget about finding Savard and Kozzy for basically nothing. He has some strange instincts that pay off sometimes, especially on a team on the cheap. Blame the owners before you blame DW.

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03-03-2009, 10:23 AM
  #58
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Salmela has guts. It's very important on this level. He has loads of skill and is still learning to play on the smaller surface. Career NHLer. Even if he maybe just becomes a solid second pairing guy.

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03-03-2009, 10:34 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boognish View Post
I'm pretty sure those aren't even in the top 10 of what DW has done, but don't let that get in the way of hyperbole. You yourself admit that ownership is in a shambles. I don't suppose there's any chance that he's been handcuffed for the last 2 or 3 years? The owners have admitted that they've thrown $150M into a hole with this team (150M they can't really afford). It's not a big step to figure that they've told DW to spend as little as he can without getting into trouble with the league.
Blaming the ownership is easy enough, but Waddell has severely mismanaged the money he was given. Take the Savard situation, for instance. Instead of giving him the contract he wanted, Waddell opted to keep him for the duration of the season and let him walk for nothing. He followed with handing out big contracts to Holik and Rucchin, who obviously could not replace Savard's production.

The ownership did not cause him to be a terrible drafter. I've seen some contrived statistics to argue that Waddell has been "average", but those fail to take into account the quality of those player and instead indiscriminately use game played to determine the quality of a pick. The fact is that outside of top picks, Toby Enstrom, and hopefully Pavelec, the group of Thrashers draftees playing in the NHL consists of fourth line grinders and mediocre role players.

You say that the you are "pretty sure those aren't even in the top 10 of what DW has done", so enlighten me... what are the top 10? There's the Savard trade (although undermined by him walking for
nothing), and the Kozlov trade, but nothing else really stands out.

And believe me, I despise the owners and blame them first and foremost. However, I believe that refusing to fire Waddell despite years and years of terrible mismanagement, disappointment and losing is the primary reason. Above all else, the ASG refuses to cooperate with eachother to take action in resolving team issues.

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Originally Posted by blankspace6 View Post
Mike Milbury is the worst GM in the history of the NHL. Waddell may be up there, but he has nothing on Milbury.
True... but I said "one of"

I think Waddell is a favorite for #2 right now though.

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03-03-2009, 11:49 AM
  #60
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Savard wanted to go for personal reasons, and besides he was playing horrible hockey for us on the road which didn't make him "all that" for us. On a better defensive team with better coaching he has flourished in Boston.

Drafting Little and Enstrom was pretty sweet too. Zhitnik was a great trade: Coburn didn't want to play for us and nobody knew that Zhitnik would go on a Donuts and Vodka diet over the summer after the playoffs. I remember that first day of camp back and everybody was like "OMG, we're screwed...what did Zhitnik do to himself!"

Hainsey was a great signing. Everyone realizes he's played with 3rd pairing/7th defensemen guys so far, right?

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03-03-2009, 12:16 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
When has Waddell EVER done anything that makes sense? Instead of stocking up on 4th lines centers/forward, he is now stocking up on 7th defensemen!!
I wouldn't call this kid a 7th man. At least not yet. He's probably going to get called up on Monday. Then we'll get to take a good look at the kid and see what he can bring to the table.

The kid has 8g 16a for 24p at Lowell so far, so we know he can score. This late in the season, and given what position we're in, he's worth taking a chance on. Then, maybe in the summer, he can get some conditioning and learn to be more defensively responsible.

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Old
03-03-2009, 01:19 PM
  #62
Norm MacDonald
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Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
Savard wanted to go for personal reasons, and besides he was playing horrible hockey for us on the road which didn't make him "all that" for us. On a better defensive team with better coaching he has flourished in Boston.
Fabrication... there's no evidence to support this, nor is there any evidence to suggest that Waddell made an effort to keep him in Atlanta. Also, I'd hardly say that he was playing "horrible hockey" when he managed to score 97 points that season. At the time, he was unpopular among Thrashers fans because of the occasional stupid penalty, but they undervalued what they had in the organization. He proved that he was not Kovalchuk's leach with the Bruins and Waddell's experiment of replacing him with checking line centers failed.

Quote:
Drafting Little and Enstrom was pretty sweet too
Two bright spots, for sure. Little was more-or-less the widely accepted best player available at that pick, but Enstrom was a great pickup in the late rounds. Unfortunately, that's about all he's done there... and considering the strength of the 2003 draft, one would hope Atlanta would come away with more.

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Zhitnik was a great trade: Coburn didn't want to play for us and nobody knew that Zhitnik would go on a Donuts and Vodka diet over the summer after the playoffs. I remember that first day of camp back and everybody was like "OMG, we're screwed...what did Zhitnik do to himself!"
Really?... I honestly don't understand this extent of homerism. It's best to just accept the fact that it was horrible asset management, since fan outcry is the best way to inspire change. Nothing is to be gained from somehow thinking the Coburn trade was "good." Waddell traded away the team's most promising young prospect in exchange for an aging, mediocre defenseman. There was a reason that the Islanders traded him early that season for Freddy Meyer, but that seemed to go over Waddell's head completely.

I've also heard nothing to the extent that Coburn did not want to play for the Thrashers. That's just more fabrication, especially considering that he was under contract and wanted to be in the NHL. Waddell was simply impatient with him did not make room for him to play in the NHL, even though he was playing well after being called up.

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Hainsey was a great signing. Everyone realizes he's played with 3rd pairing/7th defensemen guys so far, right?
He started off the season well, but he's fallen off. Even so, at $4.5M, it's expected of him to perform at those early standards throughout the season. People talk about the ownership strapping Waddell for cash, but when he uses the money given to him to overpay free agents, that logic is completely compromised.

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03-03-2009, 01:28 PM
  #63
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Look Deep Orange, I'm not going to post the travails of Savard's personal life on a messageboard, but he had family reasons to want to be in the Northeast and play near Toronto a lot. You didn't know this? Also, I heard a radio interview with him in Atlanta and he wasn't personally happy in his last year here, and it had NOTHING to do with The Thrashers.

It's easy for you to shout "fabrication" and basically call me a liar, but I'm trying to be respectful about Savard.

It's also not "fabrication" that Coburn didn't want to play for Atlanta. You didn't know this either? Many other posters have mentioned this about Coburn not being happy or giving his all in Atlanta or Chicago. I watched the kid practice in Atlanta several times and McCrimmon just couldn't get through to the guy. He'd work with him one-on-one and Coburn really just went through the motions and didn't engage with him. That's not fabrication...I saw it with my own eyes. Zhitnik got us to the playoffs and the OWNERS told DW to sell whatever he could to get a playoff berth. That's the end of the story. I'm sure DW wasn't thrilled to flush that asset away.

You refuse to listen to what others are saying. You make some good points about DW, but you're not all correct about things.

Hainsey played better when X was playing more like a 2nd pairing guy. He's been stranded with an injured X, a subpar X, or Valabik since then. Is it surprising he's fallen off? Lets see Havelid or Enstrom play with Valabik or an ailing Exelby for much of the season. You just won't listen...Hainsey or even Pronger playing with Valabik is like well, Kovalchuk playing with Thorburn and Reasoner!


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Old
03-03-2009, 01:30 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
People talk about the ownership strapping Waddell for cash, but when he uses the money given to him to overpay free agents, that logic is completely compromised.

I'm pretty much on board with everything you've laid out with the exception of this last point. Waddell HAS to overpay to get anyone here. Granted, Waddell's choices to this point may have been a contributing factor to no one wanting to come here, but I also believe that the crappy ownership plays a part in this fact as well.

Even when we bust the bank to try to bring players here they're saying no (Campbell).

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03-03-2009, 01:46 PM
  #65
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Wait, who is fabricating things:

"He followed with handing out big contracts to Holik and Rucchin, who obviously could not replace Savard's production."

Um, Holik and Savard were on The Thrashers at the same time, and Holik was rarely used in the top six. DW signed Holik to one contract before Savard left.

Rucchin-Kapanen-Metropolit were all mistakes...made necessary by the ownership. DW knew they weren't great.


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03-03-2009, 01:59 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
Fabrication... there's no evidence to support this, nor is there any evidence to suggest that Waddell made an effort to keep him in Atlanta. Also, I'd hardly say that he was playing "horrible hockey" when he managed to score 97 points that season. At the time, he was unpopular among Thrashers fans because of the occasional stupid penalty, but they undervalued what they had in the organization. He proved that he was not Kovalchuk's leach with the Bruins and Waddell's experiment of replacing him with checking line centers failed.
There is also no indication that Waddell did not try to keep him. The Savard situation looks worse in hindsight than it actually was at the time. That year, the Thrashers spent to the cap and managed to miss the playoffs by a whopping 2 points. At the deadline, the Thrashers were looking like they could make the playoffs, so Waddell had to make a decision. Either he had to move the teams #1 center, essentially throwing the rest of the season away, or he could keep Savard, push to make the playoffs (for the first time in franchise history) and hope to re-sign him over the summer (which is what happened). Yes, ATL lost Savard for nothing as an UFA, but its a gamble that I (and most Thrasher fans) was all for at the time


Quote:
Two bright spots, for sure. Little was more-or-less the widely accepted best player available at that pick, but Enstrom was a great pickup in the late rounds. Unfortunately, that's about all he's done there... and considering the strength of the 2003 draft, one would hope Atlanta would come away with more.
Almost totally in agreement here. You could add Garnette Exelby and Ondrej Pavelec as well to the good late round picks. Granted, Exelby has completely fallen off since his concussion, but he was looking like a mean mother ****er before it. Also, Pavelec looked relatively uninspired when he was up earlier this season, but he is still considered a damn good prospect.



Quote:
Really?... I honestly don't understand this extent of homerism. It's best to just accept the fact that it was horrible asset management, since fan outcry is the best way to inspire change. Nothing is to be gained from somehow thinking the Coburn trade was "good." Waddell traded away the team's most promising young prospect in exchange for an aging, mediocre defenseman. There was a reason that the Islanders traded him early that season for Freddy Meyer, but that seemed to go over Waddell's head completely.

I've also heard nothing to the extent that Coburn did not want to play for the Thrashers. That's just more fabrication, especially considering that he was under contract and wanted to be in the NHL. Waddell was simply impatient with him did not make room for him to play in the NHL, even though he was playing well after being called up.
Again, this is another trade that looks MUCH worse in hindsight than it did at the time. Brayden Coburn was more a victim of Hartley's dickery than Waddell's incompetence. Coburn made the team, but was barely used because of Hartely's hard-on for veterans (aka, Hartely's boys...de Vries, Larsen, ect). Upon being demoted, Coburn's play took a dive. He looked just plain BAD. His play essentially showed that he was not willing to work on his game for Atlanta. The team had been playing piss poor since the All Star game and NEEDED something different to help them get into the Playoffs. So come deadline, DW decides that Atlanta needs some defensive help. I agree that DW could probably have snagged something better than Zhitnik, but upon his arrival he was damn impressive. He had 14 pts in 18 games after joining the Thrashers and was our best d-man down the stretch. The added bonus of all of this is that Zhitnik was signed for 3 more years. Then Zhitnik decided that conditioning was below him and we all know what happened after that. The good news is that thanks to Zhitnik's incredibly bad play, the Thrashers landed Bogosian, so there is that, lol.

Quote:
He started off the season well, but he's fallen off. Even so, at $4.5M, it's expected of him to perform at those early standards throughout the season. People talk about the ownership strapping Waddell for cash, but when he uses the money given to him to overpay free agents, that logic is completely compromised.
Agree on Hainsey. He started like a madman, but has fallen off as of late. Granted, he has spent most of the year paired with guys like Garnette Exelby, Boris Valabik, and Nathan Oystrick. One is a post-concussion cluster**** of a defense man and the other two are rookies. Also, Atlanta HAS to overpay for free agents. And another thing, this is one of the contracts that helped us get over the cap floor


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03-03-2009, 02:04 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TasteofFlames View Post
The ---fill in the blank ----- situation looks worse in hindsight than it actually was at the time. .......

fixed....

You can use any one of the below here....


Brunette
Savard
Coburn
Schneider
Hossa
Tkachuk
Bourret draft moves
Kunitz
Fata
etc

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03-03-2009, 02:21 PM
  #68
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Not to go too far off on a tangent of the thread, but I can't say that the Hossa situation is applicable to the "looks worse in hindsight" conversation.

We got Hossa for Heatley. That's exceptional return - particularly during the time - and there was zero chance of Heatley staying due to the shattering of events in 03-04.

What does DW do? At the time, what other player would you want for Heatley? Also, consider that Heatley was somewhat "damaged goods" then....(recovered from mutiple injuries, psychologically tragic event)....so who knows if Heatley would have panned out as well as he did in Ottawa after the accident. Thrashers got Hossa, who you knew would continue to perform as he did before. I'd do that deal over and over again.

Hossa had great seasons here, except for that last year when he playd the "I don't want to be here" game. Waddel deals him away for a 1st, Armstrong, Christensen, and prospect (Esposito)..........

Sure, it would have been nice to keep Hossa, but considering he came here unexepectingly and unwillingly, he played pretty well.

Just imagine if we got Havlat or Gaborik back for Heatley, or someone who didn't match what Heater was doing here... could have been a lot lot worse.


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03-03-2009, 02:39 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sneak View Post
fixed....

You can use any one of the below here....


Brunette
Savard
Coburn
Schneider
Hossa
Tkachuk
Bourret draft moves
Kunitz
Fata
etc

Fata was picked up on Waivers. Nothing special, waiver pick ups suck all the time. No reason to hate.

Kunitz is kind of a ****** situation, but Hartley is who hated him, so he gets the blame, not DW, imo.

There were a lot of reports that Bourret had attitude issues, which was a major reason he dropped. I do hold this one

I liked having Tkachuk. DW overpaid, but he helped get us to the playoffs. I also don't think this was a particularly crippling trade (which it so often gets called)

**** Hossa! Probably could have gotten something better, but we still can't evaluate this trade fully. 1/4 of this deal has been **** (christansen), 1/4 of this deal has been pretty shweet (armstrong), and the other half is still up in the air.

I personally LOVE the Schneider deal. We got rid of Klee and Larsen and got to the cap floor with that deal. If he hadn't been hurt, we could have talked about his mentoring (or possible lack there of, too small of a sample size) Bogosian.

Coburn, Savard, Brunette = worse in hindsight

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03-03-2009, 02:41 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
Blaming the ownership is easy enough, but Waddell has severely mismanaged the money he was given. Take the Savard situation, for instance. Instead of giving him the contract he wanted, Waddell opted to keep him for the duration of the season and let him walk for nothing. He followed with handing out big contracts to Holik and Rucchin, who obviously could not replace Savard's production.
Severly mismanaged is quite an overstatement. There isn't a GM out there who hasn't made a boneheaded FA signing of some kind.

First off, Steve Rucchin was paid $4.5 over 2 years. I'm not sure how that qualifies as a big contract, but I won't belabor the point. Bad signing to be sure.

Secondly, as was pointed out above, Holik was not signed to replace Savard. They played together for the 05-06 season.

Quote:
The ownership did not cause him to be a terrible drafter. I've seen some contrived statistics to argue that Waddell has been "average", but those fail to take into account the quality of those player and instead indiscriminately use game played to determine the quality of a pick. The fact is that outside of top picks, Toby Enstrom, and hopefully Pavelec, the group of Thrashers draftees playing in the NHL consists of fourth line grinders and mediocre role players.
Feel free to provide a criteria for judging the quality of GM draftees. I'll still wager that DWs drafting is right in the middle of the pack.

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You say that the you are "pretty sure those aren't even in the top 10 of what DW has done", so enlighten me... what are the top 10? There's the Savard trade (although undermined by him walking for
nothing), and the Kozlov trade, but nothing else really stands out.
In no particular order, not including drafted players:

1 - Savard trade
2 - Kozlov trade
3 - Hossa In
4 - Hossa out
5 - Jiri Slegr In
6 - Jiri Slegr out (He got what he paid plus Butsayev)
7 - Getting first overall pick in the Inaugural Draft
8 - Getting the All Star game in Atlanta
9 - Trading Bourrett for an NHL player
10 - Audette/Kaberle trade

Bonus: EC for a warm body.

Quote:
And believe me, I despise the owners and blame them first and foremost. However, I believe that refusing to fire Waddell despite years and years of terrible mismanagement, disappointment and losing is the primary reason. Above all else, the ASG refuses to cooperate with eachother to take action in resolving team issues.
I don't put DW above blame in any sense. He's certainly had a number of bonehead moves, but he's had crappy owners since Shiller left and for more than a few years he's been handcuffed financially.


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03-13-2009, 04:05 PM
  #71
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just read Knobler's article about Salmela over on ajc.com. I'm more optimistic about his prospects now than I was a couple minutes ago. I'd like to believe that Atlanta is a nice fit for him from a comfort perspective (fellow Finn to aid in communications- Kari) and playing style. He's young and raw but seems to have a skill set that fits in with what our coach wants to do.

I'm only left with one concern. He's wearing Andy Sutton's number. I fear a suckage carryover.

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03-14-2009, 02:17 PM
  #72
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Andy Sutton is a saint!!!

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03-14-2009, 09:34 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Ashe View Post
Andy Sutton is a saint!!!
I know that was sarcasm, but IMO, Andy Sutton gets a little bit too much criticism from Thrashers fans in the same way that Bryan McCabe got unfair criticism from Leafs fans. Sutton was an absolute beast at blocking shots. He also threw some great hits, and put on a show with some good fights during his time in Atlanta. I'd take him over Exelby at the very least.

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03-14-2009, 10:09 PM
  #74
orangethrasher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux Aurumque View Post
I know that was sarcasm, but IMO, Andy Sutton gets a little bit too much criticism from Thrashers fans in the same way that Bryan McCabe got unfair criticism from Leafs fans. Sutton was an absolute beast at blocking shots. He also threw some great hits, and put on a show with some good fights during his time in Atlanta. I'd take him over Exelby at the very least.
Sutton had an occasional bright spot, but mostly I remember bad defense (other than the blocked shots) and dirty hits. I for one don't like having guys on the team I cheer for making dirty hits. And taking bad penalties.

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03-14-2009, 10:44 PM
  #75
DungeonK
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Sutton took **** penalties constantly, was terrible on defense (the only reason he was good at blocking shots was because he was a traffic cone with a big body), wasn't physical along the boards AT ALL, and took runs at the other team's players for no reason when there was a minute left and a 4 goal differential. Aside from that he was great.

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