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[OTT/CBJ] Pascal Leclaire + 2nd round pick for Antoine Vermette

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Old
03-04-2009, 10:21 PM
  #301
overpass
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Originally Posted by Bass Lee View Post
Except Leclaire is much better than Gerber now, and has the potential to widen the gap even further.
It's possible that Leclaire is better than Gerber. He may turn out. However, I don't see any reason why he's a better bet than Gerber after 2005-06. Each had one good full season and a couple of backup/partial seasons. Giving almost $4 million a year to Gerber didn't work out for Muckler, and Murray is repeating Muckler's mistakes.

While I may be proven wrong on the specifics here in the long run, my point is that the strategy of overpaying for unproven or middling goalies isn't a winning one. Leclaire at $3.8 million isn't an asset that a GM should give up anything of value for.

You say he has potential. True, but how many goalies with one good season before the age of 26 go on to good careers? Some do, most don't.

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03-04-2009, 10:33 PM
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Leclaire will

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03-04-2009, 11:23 PM
  #303
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This trade just made too much sense. Glad to see it happen.

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03-05-2009, 07:57 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
It's possible that Leclaire is better than Gerber. He may turn out. However, I don't see any reason why he's a better bet than Gerber after 2005-06. Each had one good full season and a couple of backup/partial seasons. Giving almost $4 million a year to Gerber didn't work out for Muckler, and Murray is repeating Muckler's mistakes.

While I may be proven wrong on the specifics here in the long run, my point is that the strategy of overpaying for unproven or middling goalies isn't a winning one. Leclaire at $3.8 million isn't an asset that a GM should give up anything of value for.

You say he has potential. True, but how many goalies with one good season before the age of 26 go on to good careers? Some do, most don't.

pascal had more than 1 good year.... the problem is almost all of them have been cut short by injury


dudes got cheap rubber bands for ligaments

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03-05-2009, 08:24 AM
  #305
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I love how people in this thread point to the 2nd round pick when picking the winner of this trade.

The 2nd rounder will probably turn out to be nothing, people - the players involved in this deal are highly likely to be much more valuable than what that 2nd round pick will pump out (if anything at all).

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03-05-2009, 08:50 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Hayzed1 View Post
I love how people in this thread point to the 2nd round pick when picking the winner of this trade.

The 2nd rounder will probably turn out to be nothing, people - the players involved in this deal are highly likely to be much more valuable than what that 2nd round pick will pump out (if anything at all).
I still think Ottawa won...

Ottawa got a potential Franchise Goaltender as well as a 2nd round pick (Ottawa's 2nd round pick last year turned into Patrick Wiercioch, if you do not know him look him up or wait till he's in the NHL).

While Columbus got a 2nd line utility player..

I will DEARLY miss Vermette as I have seen him in a Sens jersey ever since he came here to Binghamton, but I think ultimately as long as Leclaire does not keep getting injured that we won this trade.

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03-05-2009, 08:53 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayzed1 View Post
I love how people in this thread point to the 2nd round pick when picking the winner of this trade.

The 2nd rounder will probably turn out to be nothing, people - the players involved in this deal are highly likely to be much more valuable than what that 2nd round pick will pump out (if anything at all).
I think it was TSN that said yesterday that 29 percent of the picks in the 40-50 range (likely where the new Sens pick will be) since 1996 have played more than 100 NHL games.

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03-05-2009, 09:12 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Sammitch View Post
I still think Ottawa won...

Ottawa got a potential Franchise Goaltender as well as a 2nd round pick (Ottawa's 2nd round pick last year turned into Patrick Wiercioch, if you do not know him look him up or wait till he's in the NHL).

While Columbus got a 2nd line utility player..

I will DEARLY miss Vermette as I have seen him in a Sens jersey ever since he came here to Binghamton, but I think ultimately as long as Leclaire does not keep getting injured that we won this trade.
I think Pascal is a great guy and I think his new teammates will agree just as his old ones do, however, the guy has been injured pretty much every year since he started playing the position.

He got to the nhl based on his amazingly quick leg speed and reflexes and not his work ethic. He found out in a real hurry that he better be in better physical condition if he wanted to stay healthy in this league. Kudo's to him for adapting and making that change, not all do (see: Lethonen).

The pre-season injury was kind of a freak thing, but it kind of goes with the saying: injured players get injured.

I, however, am not one of those who believes that that is why his play was terrible this season. I think that was a convenient, built in excuse.

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03-05-2009, 09:21 AM
  #309
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It's a great move for us. (OTT) We'll definitely miss Vermette (circa 2007-08) but he's been quite non-productive as of late. I think we win in this deal. Every team should have a french-canadian, butterfly-style goalie and we just got ours!

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03-05-2009, 09:28 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by S3ABAS View Post
It's a great move for us. (OTT) We'll definitely miss Vermette (circa 2007-08) but he's been quite non-productive as of late. I think we win in this deal. Every team should have a french-canadian, butterfly-style goalie and we just got ours!
Leclaire is very much a hybrid goalie who relies on his quick legs and reflexes. He is not your prototypical French-Canadian butterfly goalie a la MAF.

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03-05-2009, 09:28 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Hayzed1 View Post
I love how people in this thread point to the 2nd round pick when picking the winner of this trade.

The 2nd rounder will probably turn out to be nothing, people - the players involved in this deal are highly likely to be much more valuable than what that 2nd round pick will pump out (if anything at all).
Vermette was a late second round pick in 2000. 55th overall to be exact.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=2130

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03-05-2009, 10:03 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by kohlmanator View Post
Vermette was a late second round pick in 2000. 55th overall to be exact.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=2130
12 of the 35 players drafted in the 2nd round that year have had meaningful NHL experience (11 guys with 100+ games and late-blooming Dan Ellis).

That's about 34 percent -- roughly in line with the stat TSN put out yesterday (it was in one of their blogs).

That 12 includes good players like Bryzgalov and Vermette and Stoll and some warm-bodied, but unspectacular NHLers like Andreas Lilja and Paul Martin.

My point is that you may get another Vermette, you may get Brad Winchester, you may get Libor Ustrnul.

A 2nd round pick is a nice piece to have, but you're more likely to have that prospect fail than succeed and even less likely to get someone who'll be a good player.

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03-05-2009, 10:14 AM
  #313
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To put it another way, what is more likely to happen -- Vermette being a good player for Columbus or the 2nd round pick turning into a player the equal of Vermette?
Heck, I bet Leclaire is more likely to be a good goaltender for the Sens than that pick turning into a good player.

Sorry to harp on this, I just think the value of that 2nd rounder is getting a tad overrated here.

I actually think both teams did well. Ottawa added a goalie with a lot of upside and a pick (add picks, while sometimes overrated, isn't a bad thing), while Columbus got immediate offensive/defensive help without subtracting from their current team (and they saved money).

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03-05-2009, 10:26 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by KallioWeHardlyKnewYe View Post
To put it another way, what is more likely to happen -- Vermette being a good player for Columbus or the 2nd round pick turning into a player the equal of Vermette?
Heck, I bet Leclaire is more likely to be a good goaltender for the Sens than that pick turning into a good player.

Sorry to harp on this, I just think the value of that 2nd rounder is getting a tad overrated here.

I actually think both teams did well. Ottawa added a goalie with a lot of upside and a pick (add picks, while sometimes overrated, isn't a bad thing), while Columbus got immediate offensive/defensive help without subtracting from their current team (and they saved money).
Point understood. But another reason why people may like the fact we got a 2nd round pick, mostly people in Ottawa, is that our farm team is pretty empty, and the more picks we get the better. Big ol-thanks to Mucks! ...

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03-05-2009, 10:40 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by KallioWeHardlyKnewYe View Post
12 of the 35 players drafted in the 2nd round that year have had meaningful NHL experience (11 guys with 100+ games and late-blooming Dan Ellis).

That's about 34 percent -- roughly in line with the stat TSN put out yesterday (it was in one of their blogs).

That 12 includes good players like Bryzgalov and Vermette and Stoll and some warm-bodied, but unspectacular NHLers like Andreas Lilja and Paul Martin.

My point is that you may get another Vermette, you may get Brad Winchester, you may get Libor Ustrnul.

A 2nd round pick is a nice piece to have, but you're more likely to have that prospect fail than succeed and even less likely to get someone who'll be a good player.
It was actually like two weeks ago in Scott Cullen's Backchecking:

BACKCHECKING: THE VALUE OF NHL DRAFT PICKS

And your point is taken, but you'll never get people on hfboards to accept or understand the fact that draft picks are NOT better then NHL ready players. The salary cap does skew this a bit, and adds more value to the draft picks, but to me looking at the percentages provided by TSN a 2nd is almost just as good as a late 1st, but will pay dividends in contract talks if you hit a homerun.

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03-05-2009, 11:15 AM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kohlmanator View Post
Vermette was a late second round pick in 2000. 55th overall to be exact.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=2130
Nicely played.

That said, I'm amused at reports that Murray kept on asking for a prospect before finally taking the second rounder. I like the idea of Howson thinking to himself "b###h, do your own scouting."

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03-05-2009, 11:30 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Masterplan View Post
It was actually like two weeks ago in Scott Cullen's Backchecking:

BACKCHECKING: THE VALUE OF NHL DRAFT PICKS

And your point is taken, but you'll never get people on hfboards to accept or understand the fact that draft picks are NOT better then NHL ready players. The salary cap does skew this a bit, and adds more value to the draft picks, but to me looking at the percentages provided by TSN a 2nd is almost just as good as a late 1st, but will pay dividends in contract talks if you hit a homerun.
Thanks for the link. I knew I'd read that recently.

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03-05-2009, 11:38 AM
  #318
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Leclaire is pretty good, I think he benefitted from the system in Columbus, but he's still a decent goalie. His career NHL SV% is just below .900. So we will see.

Another important point is that the most he's played in one season is 54 games. So we can assume he'll play around 60 next year, therefore the Sens have to rely on Auld or Elliott for a good chunk of games too. They both have been inconsistent at times, though Elliott has looked better. I think in back-up roles they will do very well.

Vermette is not a #1 centre, but he is a #2 with an off year. Brassard, Umberger and Vermette is a pretty good lineup down the middle. No current #1 centre, but still promising depth. Throw in those young wingers and hopefully a puckmoving defenceman through free agency and you have a playoff team.

Good trade.

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03-05-2009, 12:30 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Leclaire is pretty good, I think he benefitted from the system in Columbus, but he's still a decent goalie. His career NHL SV% is just below .900. So we will see.

Another important point is that the most he's played in one season is 54 games. So we can assume he'll play around 60 next year, therefore the Sens have to rely on Auld or Elliott for a good chunk of games too. They both have been inconsistent at times, though Elliott has looked better. I think in back-up roles they will do very well.

Vermette is not a #1 centre, but he is a #2 with an off year. Brassard, Umberger and Vermette is a pretty good lineup down the middle. No current #1 centre, but still promising depth. Throw in those young wingers and hopefully a puckmoving defenceman through free agency and you have a playoff team.

Good trade.
It's pretty tough to argue that a potential No. 1 goalie isn't worth more then a potential No. 2 center, then to top it off a 2nd was added to the potential No. 1 goalie. That's the real point here when people are saying the 2nd swings the deal in the Sens favor. Not that the pick is particularly valuable, but that the Sens should have had to add a pick, not the other way around.

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03-05-2009, 12:56 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Masterplan View Post
It's pretty tough to argue that a potential No. 1 goalie isn't worth more then a potential No. 2 center, then to top it off a 2nd was added to the potential No. 1 goalie. That's the real point here when people are saying the 2nd swings the deal in the Sens favor. Not that the pick is particularly valuable, but that the Sens should have had to add a pick, not the other way around.
It's all about reducing risk.

Leclaire's ceiling is higher than Vermette's, but Vermette is more likely to be a good and contributing player than Leclaire, simply because of Pascal's health issues.

If Pascal didn't have as lengthy an injury history, I think this deal would've been straight-up or even have the Sens throwing in something.

But Sens take on more risk, hence Columbus adding.

At least that's the way I see it.

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03-05-2009, 01:38 PM
  #321
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Nicely played.

That said, I'm amused at reports that Murray kept on asking for a prospect before finally taking the second rounder. I like the idea of Howson thinking to himself "b###h, do your own scouting."
The issue isn't scouting so much as timeline. Murray would like us to return to a contending form sooner rather than later, so he doesn't really have the time to wait for a second round pick to pan out 2 or 3 years from now. He'd rather have a prospect that's close to being NHL ready so we can start inserting him in the lineup as early as next year.

That's been his stated strategy all year.

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03-05-2009, 11:00 PM
  #322
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haha go check his press confrence on www.ottawasenators.com funny as hell

hi....im pascal!

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03-06-2009, 01:55 PM
  #323
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haha go check his press confrence on www.ottawasenators.com funny as hell

hi....im pascal!
Thanks for the heads-up on that.

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03-06-2009, 03:25 PM
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haha go check his press confrence on www.ottawasenators.com funny as hell

hi....im pascal!
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03-06-2009, 03:27 PM
  #325
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I don't know if it has been said but to those Senators fans that may be wondering Vermette will make his debut tomorrow night.

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