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Patrick O'Sullivan to Edmonton; Justin Williams to LA (3-way Trade)

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Old
03-05-2009, 12:53 AM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BringTheReign View Post

But, good luck in Edmonton Sully, have fun in the playoffs.

Williams, you better not let Sully outscore you or this board will be up in arms screaming, "Fire DL
!"
No they wont, but only because half of them have the nose shoved so far up DL's anus that they can't suck in enough fresh air to scream anything.

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03-05-2009, 12:53 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
Then why don't the good teams make moves like this?

It's a horrible move from and asset standpoint alone. You KEEP O'Sullivan and the ****ing second and keep letting him develop. We lose NOTHING by taking a chance on O'Sullivan. We lose at least a 2nd taking a chance on Williams.

I like Williams, don't get me wrong, but he could have been had for less at another time. Same goes for Cole. O'Sullivan would have been an extremely valuable asset on draft day.

Just like with Cammalleri, he got a terrible return on the investment.
I tend to agree with you especially on the last point.

You would think if canes were making a playoff run and were trying to replace Williams or perhaps just trying to add a player, we would be the ones trading from strength and not from weakness.

Like you, I too like Williams quite a bit. I'm just not crazy about giving up on Sully so early in his years.

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03-05-2009, 12:54 AM
  #303
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I need to start posting more so it gets some exposure.


I don't see O'Sullivan being that consistent 30 goal scorer many homers around here claim he will be so I'm kind of in the middle. If I was going to trade him I'd only do it if you get back something closer to a sure thing than Williams.

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03-05-2009, 12:57 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
No they wont, but only because half of them have the nose shoved so far up DL's anus that they can't suck in enough fresh air to scream anything.
While the other half is busy smelling their own farts.

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03-05-2009, 12:59 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
Then why don't the good teams make moves like this?
Moves like what? Trading good young players for injured players? Let's go to the videotape...the Wings traded Shawn Mathias for an injured Bertuzzi and TWO picks.

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It's a horrible move from and asset standpoint alone. You KEEP O'Sullivan and the ****ing second and keep letting him develop. We lose NOTHING by taking a chance on O'Sullivan. We lose at least a 2nd taking a chance on Williams.
But what if O'Sullivan keeps regressing? Or plateaus and turns into the next Tyler Arnason? You always lose by waiting if you're already convinced a guy isn't going to develop into a more valuable asset than he is today.

You're making a pretty big assumption that O'Sullivan is going to improve...THIS season he got WORSE. And he's no spring chicken anymore...he's 24.

Quote:
I like Williams, don't get me wrong, but he could have been had for less at another time. Same goes for Cole. O'Sullivan would have been an extremely valuable asset on draft day.
Why would you think any of those things? If Williams got healthy, came back and started scoring, he'd cost ALOT more than O'Sullivan and a 2nd. According to the Canes GM, the ONLY reason they traded him was because they want scoring NOW to make a push into the playoffs. It's just like the Gleason-Johnson trade...the Canes made a trade for "now" and the Kings made one for next season.

Quote:
Just like with Cammalleri, he got a terrible return on the investment.
I don't want to get into a big argument about Cammalleri, but I'm not one of his fans. I really like Teubert and I think DL got fine value.

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03-05-2009, 12:59 AM
  #306
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Really late to the party here...

Although i thought Sully was the most likely King to be traded, i thought he'd fetch more than what we got. A healthy Williams would be great, but it's hard to expect that with his recent injury history. Apparently they did a huge background check on Williams' health, so i guess the Kings think he'll get back to full strength. What i really don't like is the seemingly thrown in 2nd round pick.

Good luck Sully. I'll miss you as a King, even if you seemed disinterested most of the time.

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03-05-2009, 01:01 AM
  #307
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw5RM...layer_embedded

ouch.

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03-05-2009, 01:01 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by VictoryRose View Post
I cannot wait to revisit this thread in 365 days. Bookmarked.
Just click on the "News Report" part of the thread link. It'll query some gems of older threads already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindcircus View Post
Apparently they did a huge background check on Williams' health
My guess is that's where the leak sprung.

- T

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03-05-2009, 01:07 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post

My guess is that's where the leak sprung.

- T
Sounds like a job for Billy Mays and his Mighty Putty!!


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03-05-2009, 01:07 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Now you can go dig up YouTube clips of O'Sullivan's fights.

- T

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03-05-2009, 01:07 AM
  #311
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I don't know how in the hell someone in the organization could have a look at Williams health and say, yeah, that's our guy. If someone can give me an explanation for that one, I'd love to hear it. All I've read so far is that if he's healthy, he's the best player in the deal. Yeah, that's true, but his injury history is undeniable fact. I don't see how that changes going to a much tougher conference, on a dump and chase team that's trying to play a grittier game.

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03-05-2009, 01:08 AM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greasy Squid View Post
Zeus says hi!
Please recall that Zeus was signed UFA and we gave up nothing to get him but 4mil a year. Big difference from that as to when you trade away high potential player for a player with a history of injuries as long and as serious as Williams has.

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03-05-2009, 01:09 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
Now you can go dig up YouTube clips of O'Sullivan's fights.

- T
O'Sullivan only fights his demons...


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03-05-2009, 01:11 AM
  #314
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You're making a pretty big assumption that O'Sullivan is going to improve...THIS season he got WORSE. And he's no spring chicken anymore...he's 24.
Yeah, you're right. How could we have waited 2 full seasons for an aging 24 yr old to continue to improve.

What were we thinking???

Let's hope JJ has a good year next year because he'll be a year shy of his 24th birthday and we just can't afford to wait too long.

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03-05-2009, 01:11 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
Sounds like a job for Billy Mays and his Mighty Putty!!

That isn't Justin Williams is it?

If it is, we're ****ed.

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03-05-2009, 01:11 AM
  #316
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Quote:
Please recall that Zeus was signed UFA and we gave up nothing to get him but 4mil a year. Big difference from that as to when you trade away high potential player for a player with a history of injuries as long and as serious as Williams has.
That first four million on Handzus certainly went down the ******* due to his lack of health. But don't forget, that checked out too.

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03-05-2009, 01:12 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Trades only happen around here if they are in 3s.

DIEHARD gives you his O'Sullivan jersey + his car

You trade his O'Sullivan jersey + his car to me

I give you my Kings yellow practice jersey with the mustard stain and my daugther's poopy diaper

Deal?
The deal only goes through if I get your car, and you can give the poopy diaper to Jr.

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03-05-2009, 01:14 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
The risk of Williams' injury history is there, but so is the risk of O'Sullivan never living up to his billing.
I think a lot of folks here would do well to read that again. In the end the Kings gave up only potential, and traded it for the potential for a better player to remain healthy.

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Old
03-05-2009, 01:17 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
I don't know how in the hell someone in the organization could have a look at Williams health and say, yeah, that's our guy.
You take health out of the equation, that's how.

Case in point:

05-Feb-09 Shoulder surgery, remainder of the regular season.
09-Apr-07 Missed the last 8 games of the regular season (ankle injury).
23-Mar-07 Ankle injury, day-to-day.
09-Mar-07 Missed 3 games (lower body injury).
03-Mar-07 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
19-Dec-06 Missed 2 games (shoulder injury).
14-Dec-06 Shoulder injury, day-to-day.
19-Jan-06 Missed 2 games (cervical strain).
14-Jan-06 Cervical strain, day-to-day.
29-Mar-04 Missed 1 game (flu).
27-Mar-04 Flu, day-to-day.
14-Mar-04 Missed 17 games (shoulder injury).
03-Feb-04 Shoulder injury, sidelined indefinitely.
31-Jan-04 Unknow, left Saturday's game.
20-Jan-04 Cervical strain, left Tuesday's game (Didn't miss any games).
03-Jan-04 Missed 6 games (concussion).
20-Dec-03 Concussion, sidelined indefinitely.
22-Mar-03 Missed 1 game (sprained ankle).
20-Mar-03 Sprained ankle, day-to-day.
17-Feb-03 Missed 12 games (knee injury).
03-Feb-03 Knee injury, mid-February.
19-Jan-03 Knee injury, day-to-day.
18-Jan-03 Knee injury, left Saturday's game.
30-Dec-02 Missed 1 game (flu).
29-Dec-02 Flu, day-to-day.
26-Dec-02 Missed 1 game (back injury).
23-Dec-02 Back injury, day-to-day.
17-Dec-02 Missed 10 games (back spasms).
27-Nov-02 Back spasms, mid-December.
21-Nov-02 Missed 1 game (back spasms).
19-Nov-02 Back spasms, day-to-day.
30-Apr-01 Missed Game 5 and 6 of Round One against Detroit and Game 1 and 2 of Round Two against Colorado (arm injury).
21-Apr-01 Arm injury, day-to-day.
14-Apr-01 Missed Game 1 against Detroit (knee injury).
11-Apr-01 Knee injury, day-to-day.
07-Dec-00 Missed 1 game (back injury).
03-Dec-00 Back injury, day-to-day.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=2223

Or:

24-Dec-08 Groin, sidelined indefinitely.
17-Dec-08 Missed 27 games (back injury).
16-Oct-08 Back injury, day-to-day.
15-Nov-07 Missed 3 games (groin).
05-Nov-07 Groin, day-to-day.
01-Nov-07 Missed 2 games (groin).
27-Oct-07 Groin, day-to-day.
06-Jan-07 Missed 34 games (groin strain).
02-Jan-07 Groin strain, day-to-day.
21-Oct-06 Groin strain, sidelined indefinitely.
23-Nov-05 Missed 11 games (hip flexor).
25-Oct-05 Hip flexor, sidelined indefinitely.
19-Oct-05 Missed 6 games (groin).
04-Oct-05 Groin, mid-October.
28-Sep-05 Groin, day-to-day.
02-Feb-04 Missed 5 games (hip flexor).
22-Jan-04 Hip flexor, day-to-day.
17-Dec-02 Missed 1 game (flu).
15-Dec-02 Flu, day-to-day.
28-Dec-01 Missed 3 games (groin).
22-Dec-01 Groin, day-to-day.
07-Oct-01 Missed 1 game (hernia).
01-Oct-01 Hernia, day-to-day.
08-Apr-01 Missed the last 4 games of the regular season (abdominal strain).
02-Apr-01 Abdominal strain, day-to-day.
30-Nov-00 Missed 6 games (left leg injury).
17-Nov-00 Left leg injury, day-to-day.

http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=2096

Most hockey players are going to have their list of breaks, tears and pulls over the years. You have to temper that with the type of player they are when healthy, and what they can bring to the team overall. GM's have to take risks on players all the time that have a laundry list of injuries. DL felt this risk was worth taking.

This trade is going to be a footnote compared to the day when the decision on what DL wants to do with Frolov is made public. What DL does with Frolov will make or break his tenure as GM.

- T


Last edited by TonySCV: 03-05-2009 at 01:31 AM.
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Old
03-05-2009, 01:24 AM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I agree that O'Sullivan hurt himself this season by missing camp. He's not currently earning his contract.

They are all regressing offensively under Murray.
Brown isn't regressing offensively:
07-08 33G/27A
08-09 30G/34A (projected)

Frolov isn't:
07-08 23G/44A
08-09 34G/27A (projected)

Stoll isn't:
07-08 14G/22A
08-09 21G/29A (projected)

Handzus isn't:
07-08 7G/14A
08-09 14G/23A (projected)

And that's not counting guys like Quincey, Johnson and Doughty who have blossomed under Murray. I'm not some big Murray fan, but you're just wrong about them all regressing. And that's not even factoring in that Cammy is gone so they're not getting points from his offense.

Kopitar is, but he's 21 and I expect him to be more inconsistent.

Quote:
Where did I say every new coach has a negative effect?
You didn't, but you made an excuse for O'Sullivan by saying he's struggling because of a new coach. New coaches are OFTEN a major reason players do BETTER. It's just excuse-making, especially when the other players on the team aren't struggling as much.

Quote:
You make it sound as if O'Sullivan is the only one on the team struggling offensively. They all are.
Show some numbers to prove your point.

Quote:
Stoll with one more point is A LOT closer? uh, okay.
Yep. You're not one of those fans who thinks offense is the only thing that matters are you?

Stoll is better defensively and brings more leadership than O'Sullivan.

Quote:
Kopitar is currently earning his contract, but unless we see about a 30 point increase next year he won't be.
How about if you wait until next year before bashing Kopitar.

Quote:
Well, I hope we got Sakic.
Me too. But I'll settle for 05-06 Williams.

Quote:
All players progress differently. Williams has regressed since he was 24 as well, injuries or not.
Age 24: 31G/45A
Age 25: 33G/34A

Then he has some injuries that limited his play. I would hardly call that "regressing". He scored more goals at age 25 and then he had injuries. At worst, I'd say he plateaued.

Quote:
Players progress at different stages. They're all adjusting and it shows, which is why all the "O'Sullivan is garbage, he's done improving, etc" stuff is BS.
Sure, it's garbage. But what in the world has he done THIS year to make you think he has NOT stopped improving? You're just HOPING he'll keep getting better.

Quote:
Earlier you told me not to worry about his injury history but now it's an excuse? Shouldn't that worry us?
There's a difference between an "excuse" and a "reason". Blaming a new coach is an excuse. Injuries are a reason.

And yes, his injuries should worry everyone with the Kings. That's why doctors get involved.

Quote:
Hopefully you're right. If it's 05-06 Williams we get, I'm fine with the trade, other than the pick.
If it's 05-06 Williams, there is NO WAY Lombardi gets him for O'Sullivan and a 1st, much less a 2nd. If it's 05-06 Williams, I am ECSTATIC with this trade unless O'Sullivan suddenly turns the corner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
The 47 games played was the lockout season. He missed 1 game that season. In 8 seasons, Williams will have missed about 35 more games than Sakic did his first 18 seasons. Until proven otherwise, Williams is injury prone.
Fair enough, I've been up too late and just spaced on the lockout. But it's undeniable that Sakic went through a stretch where he was chronically injured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I just saw that, I was looking at Quincey's TOI as he was right below him.

My point there still stands though.
It sort of does. Who would you expect to have more TOI?? Handzus? Stoll? C'mon, O'Sullivan is a major disappointment this year and being a 24 yr old with less than 20 goals has GOT to be a big concern.

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Old
03-05-2009, 01:24 AM
  #321
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Not a single one of those for either player compares to a torn ACL. Your legs are your legs, you need them to skate, if you were once a great skater and have no knees, where do you go.

Moreover, I stated repeatedly that getting Gaborik would be a horrendous move. A contract that pays Gaborik more than 3 million a year is a contract that sucks. Giving up assets to get him is even worse.

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03-05-2009, 01:29 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
That first four million on Handzus certainly went down the ******* due to his lack of health. But don't forget, that checked out too.
No one knows that better than me. But Zeus was Free agent, well not so much free at 4MM for each of 4 years. But to get him, we didnt trade away a guy who is likely to develop into, at minimum, a 25+ goals 60+ point player in a faster more offensive styled system than what TM runs here. That was my point.

I liked Sully on this team, and thought of all the guys he had the hardest time adjusting to the new system. Of course he was also shuffled around more than any other player as well, and that hurt his productivity, and probably his confidence as well. With a faster team and more offensive minded system, I think he will flourish.

We just better hope Williams doesnt take as long to get back to his prior levels of performance as Handzus did, although, arguably, Zeus will never return to his former offensive production.

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03-05-2009, 01:31 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Please recall that Zeus was signed UFA and we gave up nothing to get him but 4mil a year. Big difference from that as to when you trade away high potential player for a player with a history of injuries as long and as serious as Williams has.
Don't get things twisted bro...I am sure that we all know how we came across Zeus. I am only trying to say that we traded for a player that was injured, but according to the team doctors, is just fine. Much like Zeus, it could be that Williams spends the remainder of this year and the off-season recovering, and then comes back strong next year, much like Zeus did.

At the time that we signed Zeus, everyone was saying what a stupid signing that was. And now it is quite obvious, or at least to me it is, that Zeus is the backbone to this teams current style of play. Which is by far better than last year.

And as for Sully's talent...we traded away potential for actual. Something that a lot of posters on these boards were made at DL for, because we were always on the other.side of the fence on these type of deals. Williams could very well step in a be a main reason as to why Brown and Simmonds could do better.

And as for the Calder haters...Williams is a HUGE up grade for the second line.

Frolov-Kopitar-Moller
Williams-Stoll-Brown
Purcell-Zeus-Simmonds
Ivanans-Lewis-Richardson

Time will tell if this trade was any good. Just like the Vish & Cammy trades. JMFJ has obviously worked out!

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03-05-2009, 01:34 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Mindcircus View Post
Apparently they did a huge background check on Williams' health, so i guess the Kings think he'll get back to full strength.
Aren't these the same folks who were convinced that Cloutier and McCauley would fully recover from their injuries?

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03-05-2009, 01:35 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
Not a single one of those for either player compares to a torn ACL. Your legs are your legs, you need them to skate, if you were once a great skater and have no knees, where do you go.

Moreover, I stated repeatedly that getting Gaborik would be a horrendous move. A contract that pays Gaborik more than 3 million a year is a contract that sucks. Giving up assets to get him is even worse.
Maybe so, but he was skating just fine when he came back at the start of this season. In fact, it might end up being a positive that his hand was fractured if he used that time to rehab even more.

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