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Upshall-Carcillo Discussion; UPDATE (post #862) McLaren trade is nullified

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Old
03-05-2009, 02:42 PM
  #726
EasyMac
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
No it doesnt. While someone is on LTIR you can go over the cap by whatever their salary is. So Hatcher and rathje are gone FOREVER so technically instead of 56.7 million our allowable cap is 63.7 mil for their cap hits.

What cause us problems was Briere and Jones. While they were injured Holmgren took our cap to HIGHER than 63.7 million, so when Briere came back(not Jones) had to drop salary to bring it back to under 63.7 million.(Loss of Vaananen, Metro, Kukkonen.) Its more complicated than this also when yuo track the cap day to day, But still Hatcher and Rathje have no effect.

I think the point Irish is trying to make is if we didn't have Hatcher and Rathje on LTIR, we would no longer be operating with absolutely no room under the cap (we spend to the cap everyday). If they weren't on LTIR, then we would actually be slightly under the cap and we could have accumulated savings over the course of the season and had a bit of extra room to play with at the end of the season. So it could have made a small difference if we were to pick up a cheap rental, but that is likely it.


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03-05-2009, 02:44 PM
  #727
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LTIR most certainly does have an affect. Read the CBA, particularly the part about daily cap limits. Were there no LTIR players, our daily cap would NOT have been maxed out everyday. So the cap savings we could have had is gone (since every dollar under the daily cap you spend can be used down the line). Yes, you can replace those LTIR guys with no affect on the annual cap, but you do not get free daily cap space. Read the CBA.

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03-05-2009, 02:44 PM
  #728
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push comes to shove, whos ready for the game tonite?!!?!?!?!?
Me, can't wait. HAd to pay $15 , but hopeing it is worth it

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03-05-2009, 02:44 PM
  #729
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What makes people think moving jones and lupul is so easy? I'd we don't want their contracts why would anyone else? I keep saying they are our problem but just because they haven't been moved doesn't mean homer hasn't tried.
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03-05-2009, 02:45 PM
  #730
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This entire donnybrook is only happening because Paul Holmgren refused to trade the worthless overpaid Randy Jones who always falls down and makes blind passes and brain farts.

Holmgren should have traded Randy The Worthless to an unsuspecting NHL GM who isn't as familiar with the play of NHL players as 22 year old college students who watch games on their dorm room PCs while studying for exams or writing four page book reports.



It's very worrisome, and I am very worried.


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03-05-2009, 02:45 PM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
Way too much non-sense on this board today. We got people on here talking about Corporate America, Jobs as cops, and other ********. As much as Paul Holmgren has made some good decision. He has also made some bad ones. Scottie Upshall is gone. WOW. People act like the guy isn't replaceable. What i am pissed about is the bad cap management and trading of a 2nd right pick for Carcillo. Which is a huge overpayment. Upshall for Carcillo i would have been fine with. But he had to throw a second round pick into it??

At the same time Homer has made mistakes, give the ****ing guy a chance. It is his third year. Every GM in the league has made mistakes at one point. Yes i am pissed that Holmgren jumped the gun to pay Lupul instead of waiting until this summer. Yes i am pissed that Jones is overpaid. Yes i am pissed that Briere's contract is crippling this team. This team is still young and our core players will only get better. Things aren't always sunny in Philadelphia judging by the mood of some of you people around here.
No one said or even implied he wasnt replaceable, in fact, I even said he WAS replaceable

It actually appears like we might be somewhat in agreement as far as the problem....the cap management has been TERRIBLE.

Do I like the fact that Upshall was moved??? Obviously not, but I would get over it immediately if it was improving the team somehow or there werent better ways to manager the cap.

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03-05-2009, 02:45 PM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyMac View Post
I think the point Irish is trying to make is if we didn't have Hatcher and Rathje on LTIR, we would no longer be operating with absolutely no room under the cap (we spend to the cap everyday). If they weren't on LTIR, then we would actually be slightly under the cap and we could have accumulated savings over the course of the season and had a bit of extra room to play with at the end of the season. So it could have made a small difference if we were to pick up a cheap rental, but that is likely it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
LTIR most certainly does have an affect. Read the CBA, particularly the part about daily cap limits. Were there no LTIR players, our daily cap would NOT have been maxed out everyday. So the cap savings we could have had is gone (since every dollar under the daily cap you spend can be used down the line). Yes, you can replace those LTIR guys with no affect on the annual cap, but you do not get free daily cap space. Read the CBA.
But you can replace their salary on the roster the entire season...so it doesn't matter. If they come off of LTIR...then you're absolutely screwed, because you'd have to get below by their salary that has been sitting on the LTIR sidelines.

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03-05-2009, 02:46 PM
  #733
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No...you don't.

Only time those guys matter is during the offseason and the 10% rule.
WRONG.

I hate to go thru this. Again. Ugh.

The cap is calculated on a daily basis. The daily limit is the total cap divided by the amount of days in a season. This limit is the same for every team at the beginning of the season. Now, if you don't use up to the daily limit, your daily limit increases slightly everyday, as it adjusts so you can still spend up to the cap.

Now, LTIR salaries are added to our total salaries UP TO THE CAP and then everything OVER the cap is ignored and insurance pays that off, this doesnt concern most of you, but since the cap is calculated daily, LTIR eats thousands of dollars of cap space daily.

A lot of teams have been under the cap by a little bit all season, and can now spend more per day then they could at the beginning of the season (still on track to spend 56.7 mill)

The Flyers have been spending UP TO THE DAILY LIMIT EVERY SINGLE DAY SINCE LTIR COUNTS UNTIL YOU REACH THE LIMIT and everything above it is not counted.

So in essence, the Flyers have been spending 303K a day when Briere was out, even though their salaries did not total up to 303k a day.

So, every single day we are not at the limit, LTIR is eating away at some spare cap space that could have been used for an extra player on the roster at the end of the season.

This is probably a minimal amount, but over the course of the season, it could be 100k.

The reason it is minimal, is because the Flyers have been acquiring players to spend up to the limit, because if they didn't, LTIR forces them to spend at the limit anyway.

Thats why cap space for us now is a juggling act, because we can't exceed the daily limit. It is why Giroux was sent down.

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Old
03-05-2009, 02:47 PM
  #734
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
What makes people think moving jones and lupul is so easy? I'd we don't want their contracts why would anyone else? I keep saying they are our problem but just because they haven't been moved doesn't mean homer hasn't tried.
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Who says we don't want their contracts?

I think Lupul is on a perfectly reasonable deal, to be honest.

I think Jones is overpaid...and stupidly so because it was unnecessary, but it isn't an order of magnitude.

We can't afford those salaries. Lupul is taking all the cap relief we get from Knuble being gone next year...and I'd actually like to have Knuble back next year.

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03-05-2009, 02:47 PM
  #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyMac View Post
I think the point Irish is trying to make is if we didn't have Hatcher and Rathje on LTIR, we would no longer be operating with absolutely no room under the cap (we spend to the cap everyday). If they weren't on LTIR, then we would actually be slightly under the cap and we could have accumulated savings over the course of the season and had a bit of extra room to play with at the end of the season. So it could have made a small difference if we were to pick up a cheap rental, but that is likely it.
No Hatcher and Rathje, as long as they dont come back, do not affect our cap! They make our cap 63.7 million, but do not affect day to day stuff.

for the third time Out Problems sprung from Briere and Jones

Irish I agree with everything you are saying but It doesnt matter with Rathje and Hatcher since they are not coming back

We are Under the limit of 63.7(prorated for the entire season) we arent under the 56.7 million limit

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03-05-2009, 02:49 PM
  #736
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
This entire donnybrook is only happening because Paul Holmgren refused to trade the worthless overpaid Randy Jones who always falls down and makes blind passes and brain farts.

Holmgren should have traded Randy The Worthless to an unsuspecting NHL GM who isn't as familiar with the play of NHL players as 22 year old college students who watch games on their dorm room PCs while studying for exams or writing four page book reports.

It's very worrisome, and I am very worried.
Did you ever hear of waivers???? No need to trade anyone if there isnt another team that wants him.

Its a rather simple concept that those of us that dont worship a specific player understand.

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03-05-2009, 02:50 PM
  #737
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
WRONG.

I hate to go thru this. Again. Ugh.

The cap is calculated on a daily basis. The daily limit is the total cap divided by the amount of days in a season. This limit is the same for every team at the beginning of the season. Now, if you don't use up to the daily limit, your daily limit increases slightly everyday, as it adjusts so you can still spend up to the cap.

Now, LTIR salaries are added to our total salaries UP TO THE CAP and then everything OVER the cap is ignored and insurance pays that off, this doesnt concern most of you, but since the cap is calculated daily, LTIR eats thousands of dollars of cap space daily.

A lot of teams have been under the cap by a little bit all season, and can now spend more per day then they could at the beginning of the season (still on track to spend 56.7 mill)

The Flyers have been spending UP TO THE DAILY LIMIT EVERY SINGLE DAY SINCE LTIR COUNTS UNTIL YOU REACH THE LIMIT and everything above it is not counted.

So in essence, the Flyers have been spending 303K a day when Briere was out, even though their salaries did not total up to 303k a day.

So, every single day we are not at the limit, LTIR is eating away at some spare cap space that could have been used for an extra player on the roster at the end of the season.

This is probably a minimal amount, but over the course of the season, it could be 100k.

The reason it is minimal, is because the Flyers have been acquiring players to spend up to the limit, because if they didn't, LTIR forces them to spend at the limit anyway.

Thats why cap space for us now is a juggling act, because we can't exceed the daily limit. It is why Giroux was sent down.
Irish...I understand how the cap works. LTIR money is essentially sidelined, because you can spend over the cap on those guys salaries.

Which we were doing...until Briere came back, at which point you couldn't spend over the cap with his salary anymore. His LTIR coming back to the active roster lowered what we were allowed to spend.

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03-05-2009, 02:50 PM
  #738
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
WRONG.

I hate to go thru this. Again. Ugh.

The cap is calculated on a daily basis. The daily limit is the total cap divided by the amount of days in a season. This limit is the same for every team at the beginning of the season. Now, if you don't use up to the daily limit, your daily limit increases slightly everyday, as it adjusts so you can still spend up to the cap.

Now, LTIR salaries are added to our total salaries UP TO THE CAP and then everything OVER the cap is ignored and insurance pays that off, this doesnt concern most of you, but since the cap is calculated daily, LTIR eats thousands of dollars of cap space daily.

A lot of teams have been under the cap by a little bit all season, and can now spend more per day then they could at the beginning of the season (still on track to spend 56.7 mill)

The Flyers have been spending UP TO THE DAILY LIMIT EVERY SINGLE DAY SINCE LTIR COUNTS UNTIL YOU REACH THE LIMIT and everything above it is not counted.

So in essence, the Flyers have been spending 303K a day when Briere was out, even though their salaries did not total up to 303k a day.

So, every single day we are not at the limit, LTIR is eating away at some spare cap space that could have been used for an extra player on the roster at the end of the season.

This is probably a minimal amount, but over the course of the season, it could be 100k.

The reason it is minimal, is because the Flyers have been acquiring players to spend up to the limit, because if they didn't, LTIR forces them to spend at the limit anyway.

Thats why cap space for us now is a juggling act, because we can't exceed the daily limit. It is why Giroux was sent down.
And its also why you suck it up and use the players on your roster and farm team rather than acquiring guys like Alberts.

Remember, I wasnt the one that said it....."Not every player on your team is going to be good" that is why you keep a guy like Kukkonen around.

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03-05-2009, 02:52 PM
  #739
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Originally Posted by EasyMac View Post
I think the point Irish is trying to make is if we didn't have Hatcher and Rathje on LTIR, we would no longer be operating with absolutely no room under the cap (we spend to the cap everyday). If they weren't on LTIR, then we would actually be slightly under the cap and we could have accumulated savings over the course of the season and had a bit of extra room to play with at the end of the season. So it could have made a small difference if we were to pick up a cheap rental, but that is likely it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xifentoozlerix View Post
LTIR most certainly does have an affect. Read the CBA, particularly the part about daily cap limits. Were there no LTIR players, our daily cap would NOT have been maxed out everyday. So the cap savings we could have had is gone (since every dollar under the daily cap you spend can be used down the line). Yes, you can replace those LTIR guys with no affect on the annual cap, but you do not get free daily cap space. Read the CBA.
In essence, our yearly salary cap is less then 56.7, since LTIR eats some space everyday.

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03-05-2009, 02:52 PM
  #740
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
This entire donnybrook is only happening because Paul Holmgren refused to trade the worthless overpaid Randy Jones who always falls down and makes blind passes and brain farts.

Holmgren should have traded Randy The Worthless to an unsuspecting NHL GM who isn't as familiar with the play of NHL players as 22 year old college students who watch games on their dorm room PCs while studying for exams or writing four page book reports.

It's very worrisome, and I am very worried.
So you're a 40+ something who spends his day at work (unless you're unemployed) posting on a hockey forum filled with people half your age and this somehow makes you better than us.

Right.

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03-05-2009, 02:53 PM
  #741
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Meet the newest Flyer.

http://flyers.nhl.tv/team/console.js...d=771&id=35609

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03-05-2009, 02:53 PM
  #742
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
And its also why you suck it up and use the players on your roster and farm team rather than acquiring guys like Alberts.

Remember, I wasnt the one that said it....."Not every player on your team is going to be good" that is why you keep a guy like Kukkonen around.
Steven's hate Kukks, remember?

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03-05-2009, 02:54 PM
  #743
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Irish...I understand how the cap works. LTIR money is essentially sidelined, because you can spend over the cap on those guys salaries.

Which we were doing...until Briere came back, at which point you couldn't spend over the cap with his salary anymore. His LTIR coming back to the active roster lowered what we were allowed to spend.
I think the daily limit has hurt us since we acquired some high priced guys since Briere went down.

But Alberts and Carle aren't the problem for me.

Jones and Lupul are problems for me.

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03-05-2009, 02:54 PM
  #744
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Not to continue the argument, but to verify you're point: You're saying that because one "unqualified" person managed to start something out of the 6 billion people on earth, Holmgren and Stevens are wrong?
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
No....I am proving the point that just because someone isnt in that position or hasnt been for years, doesnt mean they are the more qualified person.

There are many cases of situations like this....I just used one example.

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03-05-2009, 02:55 PM
  #745
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
This entire donnybrook is only happening because Paul Holmgren refused to trade the worthless overpaid Randy Jones who always falls down and makes blind passes and brain farts.

Holmgren should have traded Randy The Worthless to an unsuspecting NHL GM who isn't as familiar with the play of NHL players as 22 year old college students who watch games on their dorm room PCs while studying for exams or writing four page book reports.

It's very worrisome, and I am very worried.
JXC you make no sense.

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03-05-2009, 02:56 PM
  #746
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Holmgren does not want to move Lupul or Jones. A message board cannot will it to happen. Whether they should be moved...who knows? Fact is, they are here to stay, so it would be better to try and be truly objective about the way these guys play rather than focus only on the mistakes they might have made. I know that every team in every sport has a whipping boy, but whipping boys, by definition, are UNFAIRLY CRITICIZED.

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03-05-2009, 02:56 PM
  #747
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I think the daily limit has hurt us since we acquired some high priced guys since Briere went down.

But Alberts and Carle aren't the problem for me.

Jones and Lupul are problems for me.
Our cap problems...have nothing to do with Hatcher and Rathje. The only place they hurt us is the 10% rule.

Briere getting hurt and then the moves that followed are what caused the stream of moves we made this past week or so. We can spend Hatcher and Rathje's full salaries over the cap if we want to.

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03-05-2009, 02:57 PM
  #748
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Steven's hate Kukks, remember?
Thats precisely one of the problem's with this team.....You have two choices here as GM

1) Force you coach to use the players you provide him or
2) Give into what your coach wants and get the damn guy off the roster if you arent going to use him.

While not a tremendous amount of money, Kukks being on the roster and moving up and down has effected out cap this year. I am not about to sit here and figure out how much, but I am sure it is possible that it is around the $400k they saved by moving Upshall.

Having a GM/Coach with such a close relationship is something that makes me VERY nervous.....You have the potential to run into the same problem as the Eagles, the coach and GM are the same person and no one tells him when he is wrong.

Last time I checked, the GM is the coach's boss

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03-05-2009, 02:57 PM
  #749
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He wont have any teeth left in his mouth by the end of his career.

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03-05-2009, 02:57 PM
  #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
I think the daily limit has hurt us since we acquired some high priced guys since Briere went down.

But Alberts and Carle aren't the problem for me.

Jones and Lupul are problems for me.
Hatcher and Rathje really didnt create any problems. It was Briere

And yes Jones is a big problem. And Alberts is a problem when people talk about how valuable our 400k gained capspace is, Since Vaananen was 400k Cheaper

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