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Old
03-05-2009, 02:19 AM
  #51
Leaf Lander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheli View Post
Summary of today:

All draft picks: (Italics are ones obtained today)
- 1st
- Oilers 2nd
- Rangers 2nd

- 3rd
- Carolina's 4th
- CONDITIONAL Rangers 4th (if Rangers get to 3rd round of playoffs)

- 5th
- 6th
- 7th

Waiver wire:
- Erik Reitz from NYR
- Martin Gerber from OTT

Out:
- Antropov
- Moore
- Petiot

In:
- Kolzig (injured salary dump)
- Heward (injured salary dump)
- Rogers (prospect D)

Reassigned to AHL:
- Stapleton
- Frogren

Otherwise:
- Toskala out for season

so we got a pick out of carolina today as well?

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03-05-2009, 02:24 AM
  #52
HellasLEAF
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I have no problem with the deals Burke made, but he gets a C- from me. The deadline from a Leafs perspective has to be viewed as a failure. No first round pick was acquired. No prospect was acquired and not enough assets were moved for picks in general. we simply did not stockpile much of anything going forward.

No pick for Mayers? No pick for Poni? come on. Both Kubina and Kaberle stay. come on, for what. stay and do what?

I love Kabs, but he absolutely should have been on the move this deadline for a first round pick and a top prospect minimum. I simply do not believe Burke couldn't find that, he was in high demand. Keeping him was the wrong move. He has 2 years on his contract, how good will we be in two years, we will be sellers again and once again he will be on the market, long before we are competitive. The only thing I can figure is they will be trade bait on draft day.

We also have left a strong team in tact, which will continue to hurt our draft position. One that could even make a playoff push or at the least continue to win games. the big picture here was hardly addressed.

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Old
03-05-2009, 02:32 AM
  #53
Cheli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
so we got a pick out of carolina today as well?
Leafs now have 2 of Carolina's picks in the upcoming draft, neither obtained directly from Carolina.

Carolina's 2nd (I wrote Oilers 2nd in my original post, but I think it is Carolina's) went to the Oilers in the Erik Cole trade, then the Sabres in the Kotalik trade, then the Leafs in the Moore trade.

Carolina's 4th went to Tampa about a month ago in the Jussi Jokinen trade. Leafs "bought" the pick with Petiot and the salary dumps.

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Old
03-05-2009, 02:37 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boss_7 View Post
C- just average. Nothing special, got us draft picks though...but yeah, nothing special. But I still don't understand what this team is doing...I was hoping we could have at least gotten a top 6 forward, which we really need. Deep down, I was also hoping to have Blake traded.

Yeah I agree. Plus these seconds usually end up 4th liners or non-NHLers. Also it's funny reading the previous posts how Burke's a genius and how he plays the media. Quite the opposite really. Didn't get anything special done, fail to convince Kubina, failed to move Kaberle, failed to get a 1st, failed to get a 1st for Antro, failed to get a prsopect.


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Old
03-05-2009, 03:00 AM
  #55
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Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..

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Old
03-05-2009, 03:27 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
Sorry mess, but Fletchs tenure is going to get greatly diminished IMO, now we see the new NHL and the value in draft picks. Trading picks for Mayers,holweg,Grabo the trading of Steen/Coli, signing Finger, Cujo are all looking like epic fails now.

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Old
03-05-2009, 04:14 AM
  #57
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As for us being in a great position for drafting, nope sorry folks, we are just back to square one.

We are where we started, all we have done is replace the 2 2nds we had traded away, sadly they will not be as low as the ones we traded out.

We did not add any first round picks or blue chip prospects to get this rebuild moving forward.

We are going to be drafting just like any other normal team this year and it's sad to say but some of these other rebuilding teams will have more prime picks then us.

All this chatter i hear from BB about the product we put on the ice and what they owe to the tickets holders and corporate sponsors scares the crap out of me.

It sounds very much like corporate BOG btch talk.

Seeing the epic inability to move forward with a draft/youth movement from last TD to now tells me one thing.

The BOG is going to be looking at a 5th straight non playoff year next year and that will be totally unacceptable to them.

Management will not be able to point at ANYTHING exceptional that points us to wards a youth filled rebuild, unlike any other standard team does with there standard allotment of picks every year. 2 TDs and one draft in since Fletch took over, and all we have done is nothing unlike any other normal standard drafting team.

Seeing the premium on draft picks now across the WHOLE of the NHL, would you still consider Filitov plus our 2nd/3rd for Luke S? Would you trade a 3rd for Mayers?

The BOG is going to put the thumbs on on BB this year to make it a PO team for 2009/10, book it. We are going to over pay for free agents and become the NYRs.

It's painfully obvious now tank nation, the rebuild alla LA,CHI,STL,PIT,WASH is not going to happen. We have spent 3 major occasions to get all those extra 1rst round picks and blue chip prospect with nothing to show for it, and if you think the GMs are going to change there stances to wards there draft picks and entry lvl contract blue chippers at the next draft, well your just dreaming. It's time to wake up, as the dire cap prediction for 2010/11 hits us square in the collective faces and the absolute truth of this depression is realized, GMs are going to be scrambling to ice the cheapest youngest teams they can get away with.

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Old
03-05-2009, 04:21 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOG26 View Post
Burke did exactly as I expected and made 2 real moves, so good on him. The third actually kinda impressed me that he actually was able to get a pick for $$.
i give burke an A for being honest ..your not gonna get a 1st for antopov unless this market was more active .that being said ...cash strapped teams can guy college fre agents .....thats where i hope the leafs shine.not 1 team got substantially better during this deadline .........yawnnnnnnnnnn wings parade again ...

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Old
03-05-2009, 06:30 AM
  #59
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well we're going into the draft stronger than we were. so its a pass. hopefully he makes more moves on draft day

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Old
03-05-2009, 06:37 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmic Dan View Post
I'll take Schenn, Panik, and Roy please.

Though personally I'd stack up the forwards and take Schenn, Panik, and Bubnick....but thats probably why I'm not a GM.
Tatar with one of those 2nd rounders for me

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Old
03-05-2009, 06:39 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..

Wow. Your "logic" always leaves something to be desired. In one breath you praise the almighty Fletcher, in the next you bash Burke for not getting rid of Fletcher's mistakes. The best you can do to build your case is to hold up supposed deals rather than what is necessarily reality. This may seem a radical thought to you but how about you try judging them on what they actually did, not what you imagine?

If you failed to notice, the market was much more reduced this year in terms of payments. Something to do with a world economic meltdown and its effects on NHL hockey but don't let things as minor as that get in your way. If Burke wasn't getting what he wanted for offers and is holding out until his demands are met, all the more respect to him. I much prefer that to a GM who moves people for the sake of moving them and gets terribly fleeced every time (see Cliff Fletcher...and you'll note we are talking what REALLY happened here, not what you imagine).

Another thing that REALLY happened here was the ACQUISITION of picks rather than the SQUANDERING of them, as was the norm under draft schmaft Cliff. At the end of the day, Burke acquired an additional 4 picks (one conditional), gave away no one that wasn't eligible to walk and acquired no one that is on contract beyond this year. Simply put, it's an empty ledger on both sides but with 4 extra picks. Now if Cliff hadn't been a tool, rather than merely having the bare minimum amount of picks, we'd have a surplus.

We still have our 2 biggest trading chips which are now available to all 29 teams. We also have a much better chance of sliding in the standings (which you think you'd pick up on, oh ye of "you guys can't see the forest for the trees"). You are right on one thing for sure, Burke wasn't able to clean up all of Cliff's messes in one day. Personally, I look forward to the draft and hope one of our big chips comes into play there.

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Old
03-05-2009, 07:45 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by BleedingBlueAndWhite View Post
Epic Fail.

he got some good draft picks. but gerber, not that great, netter average than toskala though. KOLZIG!? isnt he dead yet? and Moore, i loved him he actually gave it his all every night.

and then he picks up like 5 guys that are 3rd/4th line players.

He better do something better this off-season
Epic fail? I don't think so.

1) Gerber was claimed because they had determined that it was time to shut down Toskala for the rest of the season. It has been revealed that Toskala will be having groin/hip surgery next week. The recuoeration time is said to be 4 months. Gerber will be paired up with Curtis Joseph for the rest of the season.

2) Reitz is nothing more than a depth D-man for the organization and will likely end up on the Marlies.

3) Kolzig and Heward are merely UFA salary dumps, both of whom are on LTIR.

4) Moore and Antropov were both looking to score big-money contracts which they apparently didn't deserve; therefore, they both got traded for the 2 2nds + conditional 4th(?)

5) Andy Rogers is apparently strictly for the Marlies for the rest of the season and is RFA otherwise.

So, all in all, I'd say that Burke did quite well. He didn't waste draft picks in trades; quite the opposite. Burke got us two 2mds and a 4th for the '09 Draft plus a conditional pick in 2010. In my eyes, all the aforementioned acquisitions speak for themselves.

I, therefore, give Burke a B.

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Old
03-05-2009, 07:56 AM
  #63
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I'd give Burke an A-. Wasn't as imaginative as Fletcher might have been, but it was an austere TDD and he followed the "keep it simple stupid" principle. Nothing flashy. We replenished our stock of draft picks and freed up roughly 17 million US for FA's. Save for hypnotizing the Islanders into trading us their 1st, I can't see what more could've been done.

I'm straight, but I think I'm developing a man-crush on Burke.

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Old
03-05-2009, 08:01 AM
  #64
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The question was pass or fail.

Pass. He got reasonable value for his UFAs, and managed to creatively use his assets (cash and capspace) to garner another pick, albeit a 4th Round pick.

Looking at what transpired yesterday, I'm not sure it was a good market for big name defensemen like Kaberle and Kubina. Unless you consider Morris in the same catagory as Kaberle, Kubina, Pronger, Bouwmeester, etc. (which I don't) absolutely none changed hands; unlike most deadlines. Teams seemed nervous to part with good prospects, high picks and to dedicate capspace to expensive players going forward.


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Old
03-05-2009, 08:03 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
so we got a pick out of carolina today as well?
Buffulo's second is actually Carolina's. Not sure what the Oiler 2nd is from. Eithier I am confused or misinformed or Cheli is.

Oops it seems the second is Edmontons whidh got to Buffulo through Carolina. Well that might be better. Depends on what happens down the stretch.


Last edited by sangreale: 03-05-2009 at 08:09 AM.
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Old
03-05-2009, 08:09 AM
  #66
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He did pretty much as much as Fletcher did last year and many people were not happy last deadline.

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03-05-2009, 08:11 AM
  #67
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assigning grades are arbitrary...

Burke had a decent day, did what he could. Showed some ingenuity acquiring that last 4th round pick.

Having the picks is one thing, what you do with them is another.

The next chapter starts in June.

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03-05-2009, 08:14 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
wow... so are you really comparing last years deadline with this one?

open your eyes, man.

Clearly, things have changed.

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Old
03-05-2009, 08:14 AM
  #69
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He did pretty much as much as Fletcher did last year and many people were not happy last deadline.
Yup, fewer assets to move and it didn't appear he wanted to unload the same guys Fletcher did, but it's a similar deadline. We get better returns, as the teams we traded with are lower in the standings than Pitts was last year, but we gave up better assets. Would've like to have seen more done or better returns, but the market wasn't there for it this season. Last year was a deadline where more GMs went to add pieces for a cup, this year they seemed to tinker instead. Not a horrid job, but about what was expected. Antro a little less, Moore a little more and a 4th out of nowhere.

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03-05-2009, 08:19 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by NoamHemsky View Post
wow... so are you really comparing last years deadline with this one?

open your eyes, man.

Clearly, things have changed.
Even if he wants to

What the team is acquiring

Top 6 forward (Antro)- Mid-late 40's pick, 100 or so pick
Top 4 Dman (Gill) - 60th pick, 128 pick

Bottom 6 forward (Moore) - 40-50 pick
Bottom 6 forward (Kilger) - Can't find the pick, think we traded it in the Schenn deal. Believe it would've been in the 68-78 range

Scraps
Belak - 129th/130th pick (can't remember which)
Petiot - 105-115ish (4th rounded)

We gave up more this year, but also got more. Weaker market this year for the TD, but we seemed to fetch decently. Our role players got a better return, while our top 6 forward got more than our top 4 d-man, which seem to be in higher demand. For me, both seemed to do about even at the deadline.


Last edited by EazyB97: 03-05-2009 at 08:25 AM.
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Old
03-05-2009, 08:22 AM
  #71
NoamHemsky
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Even if he wants to

What the team is acquiring

Top 6 forward (Antro)- Mid-late 40's pick, 100 or so pick
Top 4 Dman (Gill) - 60th pick, 128 pick

Bottom 6 forward (Moore) - 40-50 pick
Bottom 6 forward (Kilger)

Scraps
Belak - 129th/130th pick (can't remember which)
Petiot - 105-115ish (4th rounded)

We gave up more this year, but also got more. Weaker market this year for the TD, but we seemed to fetch decently. Our role players got a better return, while our top 6 forward got more than our top 4 d-man, which seem to be in higher demand. For me, both seemed to do about even at the deadline.
agreed.

the only problem as I see it was letting Cliff go in one direction, and then get Burke who has has own direction.

Burke can only play with the hand he has been dealt.

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Old
03-05-2009, 08:25 AM
  #72
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I think that Burke actually did a really good job. As much as I wanted to see kubina and kaberle moved, I think that he'll have an easier time at draft day moving one or both of them. So I'm glad he didn't cave and take whatever offer anyone could make for kaberle. Hopefully with a bigger pool of teams to dangle him for, he could get a better return. Not to mention, it'll be immediately after the playoffs and there could be some teams fresh off being eliminated in the playoffs who feel that they are really just missing one puck moving defenseman to push them over the edge.

Does anyone know when next year's salary cap is going to be announced? Is it before or after draft day? Because that could affect kubina and kaberle's value as well.

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Old
03-05-2009, 08:29 AM
  #73
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In terms of other sellers, I think Burke was one of the better and more active ones in getting things done from a selling point of view.

Teams like the Islanders, Avalanche, Lightning, Atlanta, Ottawa didn't do too much selling that one would see in a traditional sellers market.

Ottawa tried to "re-stock" and still have UFA's they couldn't rid themselves of.

Islanders only managed to deal Guerin for basically a low pick. Granted they got a 1st but also dealt away a young defender for it. Still have a number of UFA's.

Colorado only dealt Leopold and got basically a 2nd rounder for him.

In comparison to other teams the Leafs did some more of the "selling" that they needed to do in acquiring future's and free depth for players in a bad market (so it seems). The players that needed to go, the UFA's were moved.

Not to mention they lost three of their better players (Antropov, Moore and Toskala) which should help them push back into a lottery position unless Gerber finds a newfound groove in Toronto (which I have a strange feeling he will and everyone will be pissed).

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03-05-2009, 08:32 AM
  #74
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If these predictions of 10-11 being really bad cap wise come true, might be an idea next season to keep an extra few million in cap space-especially if more teams like Tampa start needing to do salary dumps- might see Burke as well as other GM's "buying" draft picks at next year's deadline.

EDIT: I'd say pass, compared to previous years where draft picks were given up, Toronto got a 2nd rounder back, plus another, picked up at least one fourth, and maybe a 4th or 3rd depending on how NYR do.

Compared to previous years, definite pass.

Quote:
Not to mention they lost three of their better players (Antropov, Moore and Toskala) which should help them push back into a lottery position unless Gerber finds a newfound groove in Toronto (which I have a strange feeling he will and everyone will be pissed
LOL. Seeing as he will be under no pressure, that just might happen, to which any newcomers to the boards will be like "Why the hate on Gerber? Is he that bad?" To which the answer is, "no, that's the problem, he's winning games!"

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Old
03-05-2009, 08:53 AM
  #75
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B-

I would give a C, but the market was bad, and I don't think that was Burke's fault.

Moore was a good deal, Antro was less than I had hoped, but it depends on the official word on what the conditional was. The Tampa move was smart... I liked it. Gerber makes me happy too since Toskala was ruining our tank. I think it is good to see that everyone is on board with the rebuild.

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