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Old
12-20-2008, 08:56 PM
  #1
piqued
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.880

We're 32 games into the season, about 40 percent the way through. Turco has played 29 of those.

And that's his save percentage. 88%.

Needless to say, that is not NHL quality netminding. It's not even AHL quality.

The only guys saving Turco from the save percentage basement are Chris Osgood and Pascal Leclaire. And they've played 19 and 12 games respectively.

No other goalie has hurt their team more than Marty Turco.

If you take 88% and put it up against the 2007-2008 year's goalies it would rank dead last. By a fair margin. Below Lalime, Norrena, and Kolzig. Below Hedberg, Emery, and Holmqvist. Guys that washed out of the league, and some who aren't far away.

How long will this be allowed to continue?

How long will Stephan be prohibited from helping his team win?

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12-20-2008, 09:04 PM
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Why dont you just put Mike Smith in...

Ohh yea....

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12-20-2008, 09:15 PM
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Kritter471
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Stephan will not help the team win because the goaltending is a symptom, not the problem.

It's easy to blame Turco because it means the fix is easy. But 1972's Ken Dryden would give up four goals a game on this team.

For this team to succeed, the skaters, and in particular the defensemen, need to either start playing at an NHL level or be moved. It appears the first won't happen, so it's time to start thinking about the second.

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12-20-2008, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SensFan75 View Post
Why dont you just put Mike Smith in...

Ohh yea....
Uh.... We're all laughing on the inside.

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12-20-2008, 09:26 PM
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You guys want Gerber?

He has ring that shiney

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12-20-2008, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Stephan will not help the team win because the goaltending is a symptom, not the problem.
Stephan will help this team. Goaltending is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
But 1972's Ken Dryden would give up four goals a game on this team.
No, he wouldn't.

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12-20-2008, 09:35 PM
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Kritter, the defense is bad. We get that. But some of the lazy plays by Turco make me unsympathetic. Stacking the pads on the near post? Covering up invisible pucks only to have a turd dribble through his legs. I understand you want to stick up for him, but don't you agree he needs some rest? Why are you opposed to starting Stephan? I do not understand your idea that the defense is so bad we have to burn Turco down till he is a skeleton man.

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12-20-2008, 09:42 PM
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Kritter471
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I don't want to "stick up for" Turco and I don't particularly care about starting Stephan. I just don't think a goaltending change will make anything about this team better.

I want people to take the blinders off with the defense and stop acting like this is an easy fix. It's not. Good goaltending will not make this team significantly better because goaltending is not the problem. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the guys at the back end, and the only steps this team has taken this season made the problem worse, not better, in the Sydor trade.

This means people have to acknowledge that some of the golden kids are not all so golden and that some of last year's whipping boys were really pretty good (I miss you, Mattias Norstrom).

I also don't understand the rush to bench Turco because he's been (admittedly) below average while the same people want to play some the worst of the defensmen more so they can "play their way out of their funk." Choose one or the other - bench the sucking guys or let them play their way out of it.

But mostly it just frustrates me to see the Stars' failures being pinned on the shoulders of one thing when that really isn't the root problem at all.

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12-20-2008, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I don't want to "stick up for" Turco and I don't particularly care about starting Stephan. I just don't think a goaltending change will make anything about this team better.

I want people to take the blinders off with the defense and stop acting like this is an easy fix. It's not. Good goaltending will not make this team significantly better because goaltending is not the problem. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the guys at the back end, and the only steps this team has taken this season made the problem worse, not better, in the Sydor trade.

This means people have to acknowledge that some of the golden kids are not all so golden and that some of last year's whipping boys were really pretty good (I miss you, Mattias Norstrom).

I also don't understand the rush to bench Turco because he's been (admittedly) below average while the same people want to play some the worst of the defensmen more so they can "play their way out of their funk." Choose one or the other - bench the sucking guys or let them play their way out of it.

But mostly it just frustrates me to see the Stars' failures being pinned on the shoulders of one thing when that really isn't the root problem at all.
Who is saying it is just Turco? Who is denying that the defense is bad? You are preaching to the choir here...

And who has been giving the defensemen leniancy?

Again, it isn't a matter if it's going to change anything. Tippett is burning Turco down. He. Needs. Rest.

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12-20-2008, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
Who is saying it is just Turco? Who is denying that the defense is bad? You are preaching to the choir here...

And who has been giving the defensemen leniancy?

Again, it isn't a matter if it's going to change anything. Tippett is burning Turco down. He. Needs. Rest.
The thread starter, for one, is saying it's Turco and that this defense is good enough to win games.

I don't care if they start Turco or not, and I do think he will get worn down by March if he continues to play every game. But benching him will not make this team better.

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12-20-2008, 09:59 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
The thread starter, for one, is saying it's Turco and that this defense is good enough to win games.

I don't care if they start Turco or not, and I do think he will get worn down by March if he continues to play every game. But benching him will not make this team better.
Woops, should have read the thread I'm posting in

Anyway, I don't agree that Turco is hurting the team. However, I disagree with your premise that Stephan wouldn't change anything. While Stephan might not be able to make the stop Turco can time to time, he will give the defense something to think about. They don't have that crutch to feed them to puck when they need it or make a dazzling saze. It's a win-win in my eyes. Turco gets his rest and the defense gets a new attitude.

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12-20-2008, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caseman View Post
Woops, should have read the thread I'm posting in

Anyway, I don't agree that Turco is hurting the team. However, I disagree with your premise that Stephan wouldn't change anything. While Stephan might not be able to make the stop Turco can time to time, he will give the defense something to think about. They don't have that crutch to feed them to puck when they need it or make a dazzling saze. It's a win-win in my eyes. Turco gets his rest and the defense gets a new attitude.
I can buy that. And I think the backup should always play 15-20 or so games a season.

But from what I've seen of Stephan, he's pretty inconsistent, and very similar to Turco in the ability to make great saves and give up head scratchers that really hurt his team. So I just... I don't think, as piqued wrote, that he will help this team win. He'll just be another body left back there open to facing Grade A chances every third shift.

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12-20-2008, 10:07 PM
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How the hell can you know that? Maybe the defense needs to learn to play without Marty playing the puck. Maybe they need to see the freaking coach bench a guy who's play has been bad. Maybe they just need a shakeup. No one knows what's going on in Turco's head. Or the defensmen for that matter, but at this juncture I can point to the goaltender and say make a change. I can't do that with the defense. There aren't very many other options. Play the young guy so you know if you need to be in the market for Backstrom, Thomas, or Halak this off season.

And you play the kids, Niskanen, Fistric, Grossman, and even Hutchinson because they can improve. Sydor isn't magically going to get better. Neither will Janik.

Start somewhere, and that begins in goal. This season is a write off. Accept that. Your blood pressure will go down. Start playing everyone who will be fighting for a spot next season when a fully healthy lineup, with a few additions, via trade/free agency is in a playoff hunt.

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12-20-2008, 10:18 PM
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My blood pressure actually isn't that high. I still enjoy watching games, and I think the season is fun, though less fun that it would be if they won their games.

Again, I don't care about starting Stephan for a game or three. I just completely disagree it will make the team any better.

If we're starting with benching the guys who play bad, there's guys on the list ahead of Turco.

And as to your question of how do I know - I ask you this: How do you know all of Grossman, Niskanen, Fistric and Hutchinson are going to get better? How do you know that any of them will?

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12-20-2008, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
And as to your question of how do I know - I ask you this: How do you know all of Grossman, Niskanen, Fistric and Hutchinson are going to get better? How do you know that any of them will?
I don't. They may all suck. But at least with them, they're on the right side of thirty and haven't been driven off several teams. (Well except Hutchinson, but I've liked his play in the 13 minutes a night he's getting.) They have a chance for growth.

The defense is what it is. With the roster freeze they're here till the new year. After that most teams are going to want to wait till the deadline to have an idea of whether they're in or out. Those in a playoff chase won't be dumping defensmen on their roster. Those out will be in the same boat we are, trading detris to improve for the future. There are some half way decent names available this summer. Though cost may be prohibitive for most and with the salary cap and a bad economy only so much money may be available.

In my world play the kids and hope for improvement. Their likely hood to mature and develop is a heck of a lot better than wasting time and minutes on Janik, Sydor, Jancevski and the like.

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12-20-2008, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I can buy that. And I think the backup should always play 15-20 or so games a season.

But from what I've seen of Stephan, he's pretty inconsistent, and very similar to Turco in the ability to make great saves and give up head scratchers that really hurt his team. So I just... I don't think, as piqued wrote, that he will help this team win. He'll just be another body left back there open to facing Grade A chances every third shift.
What are you talking about? Most of the time I enjoy your hatred of young players because it is typically irrational. You didn't even watch the Nashville game where Stephan was lights out, amazing, no one could question that his teammates screw him out of a win.

I'm pretty sure I remember you saying you didn't watch the Chicago game this year where the defense and team in front of him was probably the worst it had been all year. They were terrible, and Stephan didn't have a chance on 3 or 4 of those goals.

Your looking at stats from what you see, and not even giving the kid a chance.

There is not way that you can say, "from what I've seen".

1) You missed his best damn game of the year.

2) He's played all of 4 freaking games as a professional. Getting to come out 3 times in 3rd is BS. The team had already given up on those games and quit playing in front of him.

 ShotSaveGoalSave%TOIGAA
08 Total*90819.9000179.5333.01
All Time*130119110.9154240.1672.75
**989260.9388180.2672.00

*Stars Only
**Factoring out the terrible Chicago game which was on the team

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12-20-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I want people to take the blinders off with the defense and stop acting like this is an easy fix. It's not. Good goaltending will not make this team significantly better because goaltending is not the problem.
It's not an easy fix, but it's a fix. Goaltending is a problem. Changing goalies will make the team better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
This means people have to acknowledge that some of the golden kids are not all so golden and that some of last year's whipping boys were really pretty good (I miss you, Mattias Norstrom).
Norstrom was not pretty good. The opposite, in fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I also don't understand the rush to bench Turco because he's been (admittedly) below average while the same people want to play some the worst of the defensmen more so they can "play their way out of their funk." Choose one or the other - bench the sucking guys or let them play their way out of it.
They've tried to let Turco play out of this. He hasn't. Time for a change.
Niskanen HAS and IS playing his way through his rough patch, despite being forced to play with terrible partners. You just can't see it, for whatever reason.

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12-20-2008, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued1457 View Post
It's not an easy fix, but it's a fix. Goaltending is a problem. Changing goalies will make the team better.


Norstrom was not pretty good. The opposite, in fact.

They've tried to let Turco play out of this. He hasn't. Time for a change.
Niskanen HAS and IS playing his way through his rough patch, despite being forced to play with terrible partners. You just can't see it, for whatever reason.
Irrational hatred of players south of 30.

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12-20-2008, 10:47 PM
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The team's number one d-man is Stephan Robidas, a guy who has bounced around from team to team throughout his career. He is, at absolute best, a second pairing guy now playing top minutes on this Stars team. Another third to second pairing guy has had to become Mr. Reliable, and even though Daley has improved, he's still very raw. It employs one Darryl Sydor who at this point would be better suited coaching or, perhaps, trying his hand at goalie since he moves like Shaq on skates. Two guys are second year guys, one of which appears to have slipped back into high school hockey mold. Two others are career AHL players.

While the team is seventh in the league allowing an average of 28.3 shots against per game, it's not the number that is worrisome but rather the quality. When half of those shots allowed are from right in front of the net or the direct result of cross-ice passes, that's a problem and a delineation from previous Stars teams. When the defense doesn't clear out the puck after a first stop and allows the opponent to take whacks at the puck, that's a problem. When the wingers do not consistently pinch down to help out the obviously overmatched d-men, that's a problem. The PK has been non-existent, never closing passing lanes or trying to just bother the goalie sitter.

And you want to put most of the blame on Turco? Though he certainly needs to play better, it seems rather silly to me.

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12-20-2008, 10:51 PM
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You have to use the 08 stats, because last year's game was in front of an entirely different group, and you can't factor out the Chicago game because the team has played just as bad, if not worse, in front of Turco. So that leaves a 3.01 GAA and a .900 save percentage against middle of the pack teams. Not horrible, but not "play me now" type of stats either.

I can say from what I've seen because my impressions are.... well... from what I've seen. No, it's not a lot. But again, since I don't think goaltending is the root of the problem, it's not all that important.

And I don't hate young players either. I hate players making mistakes that hurt my favorite team. Brunnstrom has made tremendous strides the past 5-10 games in both creating his own offense and without the puck, and you haven't heard a complaint out of me about him. Stephan I don't really have an opinion of either way other than he makes some very nice saves and lets in some preventable goals.

I have no problem with playing him. I just don't think it will make the team any better because goaltending is not the problem here.

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12-20-2008, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad_ View Post
And you want to put most of the blame on Turco? Though he certainly needs to play better, it seems rather silly to me.
I don't see anyone claiming that Turco is responsible for all the problems.

It is just flat our ridiculous not to see that Stephan has played very well with almost no opportunity. At this point, it absurd to not throw more starts his way to see how he and the team respond.

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12-20-2008, 10:54 PM
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If Turco is going to let in anywhere from 4-6 goals a game we need to score 7.

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12-20-2008, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
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I don't see anyone claiming that Turco is responsible for all the problems. .
I never wrote that. I clearly wrote "most" while you turn that around and think I wrote "all."

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12-20-2008, 10:58 PM
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I love many players south of 30. I like Daley, Grossman, Eriksson, Neal, Ribeiro, Richards, Morrow (though I don't remember if he's south of 30 anymore), Ott and others and I've enjoyed the development of Brunnstrom as he's gotten better. I don't have a real solid opinion yet on Stephan. I just don't subscribe to the idea that young players deserve 15+ minutes a game just cause they're young, and I certainly don't subscribe to the GoldenChild theory of Niskanen. Sue me.

Niskanen has sucked with every partner this season, and he's not getting any better. I don't see anything special about a kid who's only pretty solid when playing with the best defenseman in franchise history and a detriment playing with anybody else. Stop making excuses for him and assuming he'll get better. There's no reason to believe that.

Chad_ - Maybe they'll listen to you, but I doubt it.

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12-20-2008, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
I don't see anyone claiming that Turco is responsible for all the problems.
I see piqued claiming exactly that in the first post.

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