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Old
03-05-2009, 08:05 AM
  #1
Kimota
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Players' Overall Progression

Something that has worried me in the last few years has been how the Habs players seem to fail progressing while wearing the Habs uniform. I could give for example Francois Beauchemin, Stéphane Robidas and Mike Ribeiro of guys that started to shine elsewhere in recent times but maybe they are guys that just needed a little bit of time to "get there" in their progression. But when I see Sourey and Streit the way their overall game suddenly got better in another environment I think we should seriously raise questions about if the Habs are doing things the right way. Have you watched any Islanders game with Streit? He looks like a completly different D. No mistakes and doesn't just get his points on the PP, he support the offensive well and gains points there. Couldn't have he done this here? Same with Sourey who finaly looks like a defenseman.

Another example with this is Max Pacioretti: he looked like a power forward during training camp, amazing player with strength and speed. Now he looks like a younger Mike McPhee, a big grinder with no vision. Compared to the beginning of the year Max Pac almost looks toned down, with none of the energy and the jump to his game from what we saw during camp. What happened there? Is the player at fault or the system? Are the coachs that incompetent or is there something else. I think this organisation should seriously think about this particular aspect of their developement and that there's an obstacle(whatever that is) in making players better in Montreal.

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03-05-2009, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Something that has worried me in the last few years has been how the Habs players seem to fail progressing while wearing the Habs uniform. I could give for example Francois Beauchemin, Stéphane Robidas and Mike Ribeiro of guys that started to shine elsewhere in recent times but maybe they are guys that just needed a little bit of time to "get there" in their progression. But when I see Sourey and Streit the way their overall game suddenly got better in another environment I think we should seriously raise questions about if the Habs are doing things the right way. Have you watched any Islanders game with Streit? He looks like a completly different D. No mistakes and doesn't just get his points on the PP, he support the offensive well and gains points there. Couldn't have he done this here? Same with Sourey who finaly looks like a defenseman.

Another example with this is Max Pacioretti: he looked like a power forward during training camp, amazing player with strength and speed. Now he looks like a younger Mike McPhee, a big grinder with no vision. Compared to the beginning of the year Max Pac almost looks toned down, with none of the energy and the jump to his game from what we saw during camp. What happened there? Is the player at fault or the system? Are the coachs that incompetent or is there something else. I think this organisation should seriously think about this particular aspect of their developement and that there's an obstacle(whatever that is) in making players better in Montreal.
Our coaching staff is one of the worst in the league. How come we don't have a real D-Men coach yet ?

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03-05-2009, 10:43 AM
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I mentioned this a couple months ago. Our players come up and play the game the right way out of Hamilton. A couple weeks with Carbonneau and his coaching staff and they turn into perimeter players, turnover machines who can't clear their own zone.

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03-05-2009, 10:58 AM
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I agree with you - many of our guys are regressing.

Here is a quote from Bob yesterday:

"Without really coming up with a clear path towards improving our team, we weren't out kicking tires," Gainey told the Gazette. "I don't really have regrets that none of the players who moved teams [yesterday] didn't come to our team. I prefer that we continue to get our guys to their potential."

I have to believe that if some improvement is not shown from here to end of the year that the coaching staff must be on thin ice.

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03-05-2009, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
I mentioned this a couple months ago. Our players come up and play the game the right way out of Hamilton. A couple weeks with Carbonneau and his coaching staff and they turn into perimeter players, turnover machines who can't clear their own zone.
I don't know..I have the impression that Lever may be part of the problem too. It may be a whole organisational problem that needs to be fixed.

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03-05-2009, 11:30 AM
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Awesome topic imo.

I personally think it has a lot to do with the pressure that players feel. It takes a special breed to thrive under pressure - and in my lifetime the only player that did that was Patrick Roy. But even Patrick had his moments where he couldn't top a beachball - I can remember all too well.

When players leave our organization, all of a sudden the expectations are INSTANTLY lower. In Montreal, you are criticized daily for your play, but in other cities it's not as bad. Toronto is probably the only other comparison, but it doesn't get as personal as the Montreal media does.

I actually even think other GM's and coaches prey upon this situation. They know the "Montreal factor" will make anything they get from us even better. It's rare that any player we give away or trade does turn out to be a better hockey player.

In the end, only guys like Ovechkin, Malkin, or Crosby can play for us and be successful.

I'm disappointed with our team play this year for sure. I'm sure Carbo's (and the rest of our coaching staff) inexperience has something to do with it, but I also think the players haven't responded well to the pressure of playing in Montreal.

When Daniel Briere refuses more money to come and play in his hometown, something has to be wrong.

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I don't know..I have the impression that Lever may be part of the problem too. It may be a whole organisational problem that needs to be fixed.
Sadly, you might be right - but I will say this, until this city can actually have a non-french speaking GM and coach, we're going to be challenged to find the right man.

I'm not saying English speaking GM's are better - I'm just saying that we already eliminate SO many candidates right off the bat because of this. And I guess it looks as though we haven't found the right mix of guys yet.

Do you think England is happy with Fabio Capello as their soccer coach? I'm sure there are some traditionalists that aren't pleased, but he has won a lot of games so far and I think ultimately that is all the city of Montreal SHOULD care about with regards to the habs.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 03-05-2009 at 11:40 AM.
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Old
03-05-2009, 11:36 AM
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I've said it many times... players play better when they first arrive to the team. Under Carbo and his staff, most of them get worse.

Expect Schneider to start sucking big time soon and Metropolit to start looking like a minor leaguer within a couple of weeks.

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03-05-2009, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
I've said it many times... players play better when they first arrive to the team. Under Carbo and his staff, most of them get worse.

Expect Schneider to start sucking big time soon and Metropolit to start looking like a minor leaguer within a couple of weeks.
This happened under Vigneault, Therrien, and Julien too though.

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03-05-2009, 11:39 AM
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Bring up Lever please!! Look at Pittsburgh!!

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03-05-2009, 11:45 AM
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carboso and his bafoons are killing the team from the inside

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03-05-2009, 11:54 AM
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Same with D'Agostini, he has been below average for a while now after a nice start.

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03-05-2009, 12:12 PM
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Pacioretty was rushed to the NHL somewhat because of all our injuries...Maxwell too.

His size and skating are NHL calibre, but not yet his offensive and defensive game. He could benefit from 20 more AHL games and a playoff run.

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03-05-2009, 12:13 PM
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Same with D'Agostini, he has been below average for a while now after a nice start.

D'agostini has always been a streaky scorer, a lot like Ryder but a bit more well rounded.

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03-05-2009, 12:24 PM
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I do think it is becoming an issue as well. Higgins, Pleks, A. Kost, S. Kost., Price & Komi are all having terrible years. A.Kost is so-so. Their lack of development or regression in development this year is killing us.

Rarely do any of our x-players go somewhere and flop usually they become a key guy for their new team. Streit, Ribeiro & Robidas especially so. Beauchemin didn't last long enough with us to really qualify. Souray was a KEY guy for us when he was here so I'm not surprised at his success in Edm. I do think there is a mentality around the league that if "a guy can make it in Montreal he can make it anywhere" kind of thing and probably do better than what he did in Montreal.

What really hurts us with losing Souray is we've never replaced his team toughness.You can be sure guys wouldn't be running over our goalies, and cheapshoting Kovy or Koivu with him around. Souray was big, mean and was an outstanding fighter. He made other teams pay a price.

Laraque is a great fighter but he is not mean. Komisarek can be mean but he is not a great fighter. We really, really miss that aura that Shelly had of "don't mess with me or my guys" and being able to back that up.

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03-05-2009, 12:34 PM
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I do think it is becoming an issue as well. Higgins, Pleks, A. Kost, S. Kost., Price & Komi are all having terrible years. A.Kost is so-so. Their lack of development or regression in development this year is killing us.

Rarely do any of our x-players go somewhere and flop usually they become a key guy for their new team. Streit, Ribeiro & Robidas especially so. Beauchemin didn't last long enough with us to really qualify. Souray was a KEY guy for us when he was here so I'm not surprised at his success in Edm. I do think there is a mentality around the league that if "a guy can make it in Montreal he can make it anywhere" kind of thing and probably do better than what he did in Montreal.

What really hurts us with losing Souray is we've never replaced his team toughness.You can be sure guys wouldn't be running over our goalies, and cheapshoting Kovy or Koivu with him around. Souray was big, mean and was an outstanding fighter. He made other teams pay a price.

Laraque is a great fighter but he is not mean. Komisarek can be mean but he is not a great fighter. We really, really miss that aura that Shelly had of "don't mess with me or my guys" and being able to back that up.
Begin was mean, but he couldn't fight or play

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03-05-2009, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by KomiGr8 View Post
I do think it is becoming an issue as well. Higgins, Pleks, A. Kost, S. Kost., Price & Komi are all having terrible years. A.Kost is so-so. Their lack of development or regression in development this year is killing us.

Rarely do any of our x-players go somewhere and flop usually they become a key guy for their new team. Streit, Ribeiro & Robidas especially so. Beauchemin didn't last long enough with us to really qualify. Souray was a KEY guy for us when he was here so I'm not surprised at his success in Edm. I do think there is a mentality around the league that if "a guy can make it in Montreal he can make it anywhere" kind of thing and probably do better than what he did in Montreal.

What really hurts us with losing Souray is we've never replaced his team toughness.You can be sure guys wouldn't be running over our goalies, and cheapshoting Kovy or Koivu with him around. Souray was big, mean and was an outstanding fighter. He made other teams pay a price.

Laraque is a great fighter but he is not mean. Komisarek can be mean but he is not a great fighter. We really, really miss that aura that Shelly had of "don't mess with me or my guys" and being able to back that up.
I agree, we need someone who is not as good a fighter, but is a bit more of a "wingnut" and willing to get payback on cheap shots.

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03-05-2009, 02:23 PM
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Kimota
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Originally Posted by KomiGr8 View Post
I do think it is becoming an issue as well. Higgins, Pleks, A. Kost, S. Kost., Price & Komi are all having terrible years. A.Kost is so-so. Their lack of development or regression in development this year is killing us.

Rarely do any of our x-players go somewhere and flop usually they become a key guy for their new team. Streit, Ribeiro & Robidas especially so. Beauchemin didn't last long enough with us to really qualify. Souray was a KEY guy for us when he was here so I'm not surprised at his success in Edm. I do think there is a mentality around the league that if "a guy can make it in Montreal he can make it anywhere" kind of thing and probably do better than what he did in Montreal.

What really hurts us with losing Souray is we've never replaced his team toughness.You can be sure guys wouldn't be running over our goalies, and cheapshoting Kovy or Koivu with him around. Souray was big, mean and was an outstanding fighter. He made other teams pay a price.

Laraque is a great fighter but he is not mean. Komisarek can be mean but he is not a great fighter. We really, really miss that aura that Shelly had of "don't mess with me or my guys" and being able to back that up.
Even when Sourey was with us he lacked that edge, I thought. First, he couldn't hit anymore. Also he was defending his guys but not every guys. Team spirit has always lacked in Montreal in the last 15 years or so.

Another element is that when players play here they seem to lose their edge and grit. Guys like Begin, Aaron Downey and Laraque for instance seemed meaner when they played elsewhere than what they became when we got 'em. In Dallas Downey knocks somebody up with one punch; in Montreal he's known for the famous non-fight where he and another fighter circled one another for 2 minutes. Maybe it's tied to the team spirit or they worry too much about their image once they get here. Maxim Lapierre is another that looked like a futur pest when he got to MTL but he lost that spark quite fast to become just another grinder. I fear this may be happening with Gregory Stewart too.

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03-05-2009, 02:27 PM
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One guy does not make a team tougher. It has to be a team mentality.

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03-05-2009, 02:32 PM
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I've never seen a thread with so many posts based and elaborated on pure fantasy and impressions.



You're talking like young players coming up with energy and then slowing down is something new. It happens everytime in every team for any coach. Why not mention Sergei Kostitsyn last year who only got better and better as the year went along.


Begin was not meaner anywhere else than Montreal. Downey was the same player here as he was everywhere he's played. Laraque is exactly like Pittsburgh and Edmonton fans described him.

Sure, talk about players like Ribeiro, Robidas and Beauchemin, but why not mention the fact they were young and playing well in the Habs organisation and that it took them time to get to where they are now. They're in their best years(though playing with the best D-man in the league helps develop a player) so the only surprising thing is why did Gainey/Savard let them go so soon.

As for Souray and Streit, I have no doubts in my mind people would find any fault they could. I remember seeing one of Souray's best game only to come back here and read some of the dumbest posts about his lack of defense.

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03-05-2009, 02:45 PM
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Kimota
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Originally Posted by Kareem View Post
I've never seen a thread with so many posts based and elaborated on pure fantasy and impressions.



You're talking like young players coming up with energy and then slowing down is something new. It happens everytime in every team for any coach. Why not mention Sergei Kostitsyn last year who only got better and better as the year went along.


Begin was not meaner anywhere else than Montreal. Downey was the same player here as he was everywhere he's played. Laraque is exactly like Pittsburgh and Edmonton fans described him.

Sure, talk about players like Ribeiro, Robidas and Beauchemin, but why not mention the fact they were young and playing well in the Habs organisation and that it took them time to get to where they are now. They're in their best years(though playing with the best D-man in the league helps develop a player) so the only surprising thing is why did Gainey/Savard let them go so soon.

As for Souray and Streit, I have no doubts in my mind people would find any fault they could. I remember seeing one of Souray's best game only to come back here and read some of the dumbest posts about his lack of defense.
You're the most apologetic fan i've ever seen. Keep drinking the kool-aid, man. But these are things than many Habs fans have seen for many years.

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Old
03-05-2009, 02:51 PM
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I don't agree with some of Carbo's decisions but in no way am I going to say he's destroying our youth. That's just ridiculous.

If I'm not mistake, in most cases, it takes a number of years for a player to find his rhythm of consistency in the NHL. Unless you're a superstar, you just don't come into the league and dominate every game of every season you play.
Even Ovechkin dropped his play a bit in his 2nd season, granted he's a superstar so he still was part of the league's top leaders.

But look at Cam Neely, Bertuzzi, the list goes on..from generation to generation..
Players take time to develop.
MaxPac hasn't even played a full season here and if anything he's been good. Yet people are saying Carbo is poisoning him because he's not as intense as his first games?..That's just normal. He's got the energy of playing in his first games, so it's normal he has more jump.

Most of our youngsters are going through the normal stages of development. There's nobody to blame.

This thread is pathetic.

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03-05-2009, 02:53 PM
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Kimota
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I don't agree with some of Carbo's decisions but in no way am I going to say he's destroying our youth. That's just ridiculous.

If I'm not mistake, in most cases, it takes a number of years for a player to find his rhythm of consistency in the NHL. Unless you're a superstar, you just don't come into the league and dominate every game of every season you play.
Even Ovechkin dropped his play a bit in his 2nd season, granted he's a superstar so he still was part of the league's top leaders.

But look at Cam Neely, Bertuzzi, the list goes on..from generation to generation..
Players take time to develop.
MaxPac hasn't even played a full season here and if anything he's been good. Yet people are saying Carbo is poisoning him because he's not as intense as his first games?..That's just normal. He's got the energy of playing in his first games, so it's normal he has more jump.

Most of our youngsters are going through the normal stages of development. There's nobody to blame.

This thread is pathetic.
Never change Kriss E!

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03-05-2009, 02:54 PM
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You're the most apologetic fan i've ever seen. Keep drinking the kool-aid, man. But these are things than many Habs fans have seen for many years.
Not apologetic. It's simply normal for a young kid to go through hard times until he solidifies himself as a solid player.
Roy said it himself with Price. The same can be said for any other player.

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03-05-2009, 02:55 PM
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Kimota
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Not apologetic. It's simply normal for a young kid to go through hard times until he solidifies himself as a solid player.
Roy said it himself with Price. The same can be said for any other player.
It's something that has happened for 15 years with the Habs. Guys that are just not fulfilling their potential.

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