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Something I can't understand about Carbo.....

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Old
03-06-2009, 12:59 AM
  #1
LouisJCloutier
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Something I can't understand about Carbo.....

Listening to the TV, tuning to the radio, reading comments here on HFboars, I see a lot of bad thing beeing said about Guy Carbonneau.

Now, it's pretty clear that Carbonneau isn't a perfect coach. Bu then again, who is ?

When everyone were saying that this team would be lucky to even make it into the playoff, they finished first in the East.

How can a coach that is so bad, having no system at all, having bad communication and making poor game decision can bring a team to the top just like that ?

Can we please stop talking about Carbonneau ? Can we stop saying that everything that doesn't work his is fault ?

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03-06-2009, 01:08 AM
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WeThreeKings
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He got them to work one year. You can't be a coach in this league if you are successful once. You need to adapt and need to work and progress with your players. He fails to do this.

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03-06-2009, 01:14 AM
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Dripper
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That "something" clearly deserves a "space" and an "s"

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03-06-2009, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisJCloutier View Post
Listening to the TV, tuning to the radio, reading comments here on HFboars, I see a lot of bad thing beeing said about Guy Carbonneau.

Now, it's pretty clear that Carbonneau isn't a perfect coach. Bu then again, who is ?

When everyone were saying that this team would be lucky to even make it into the playoff, they finished first in the East.

How can a coach that is so bad, having no system at all, having bad communication and making poor game decision can bring a team to the top just like that ?

Can we please stop talking about Carbonneau ? Can we stop saying that everything that doesn't work his is fault ?
I think alex kovalev is a pretty good example of how a player can make a coach look really good or really bad. 2 of his top 3 d-men have also struggled in hamrlik and komisarek.

This team just gets killed along the boards. I mentioned hammer and komi, these guys used to win their battles more often than not last season. As a team, they lose way too many battles for the puck to be considered a contender. I give Carbo a pass because kovalev has not been the kovalev that the habs need, and the team given to him is just not good at winning those puck battles.... this is why I'm more excited about latendresse's arrival than alex tanguay.

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03-06-2009, 01:28 AM
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http://www.corussports.com/canadiens...5-1448201.html

One word. Communication.

Make that work, and a whole lot less will go wrong.

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03-06-2009, 01:31 AM
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Doc McKenna
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There have been some things about carbs that really leave me to shake my head, like playing the trap with our team. It doesn't make sense for the type of players we have.

This year is about a ton of injuries to key players, some of those players coming back and playing worse than ever, higgins, komi, price come to mind. So even if his coaching is OK the problem is nagging injuries.(Laraque)
The best thing gainey can do is hire Larry Robinson. Not to much pressure for him, work with the guys on d esp the tall ones on how to use their height better. Talk to the guys at the end of the bench. I like Jarvis but a defenceman he isn't. I learned more in one season from a good d coach than the 4 years of having just an assistant coach telling me to play harder or play the puck the otherway. Technique is important. I think Larry could do A coach without it making him return to the psychologist for more treatment.

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03-06-2009, 08:32 AM
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Turtleneck Plek
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One year doesn't make a career. That goes for the players but ALSO for the coach.

While Carbo isn't the only problem this year, he's definitely a big part of the problem. When there are multiple players coming out and saying that he doesn't communicate with his players, it clearly shows something is wrong. The coach should be close with his players, have a bond. Maybe that bond was there last year, but it's clearly gone now.

He makes piss-poor decisions in the most crucial times (no timeouts, bad line management at the end of a game, etc.) and then blames the players in his post-game interviews. Sure some players clearly lack effort, but I think it has a lot to do with not wanting to play for that coach.

Furthermore, he tries to impose a system that's the polar opposite of the one we played last year by having a team made for all-out offense play the trap and a dump-in, forecheck game. And what do you know, it works for the 3rd line and sometimes the 4th, but that isn't the style of hockey that's made for the top 2 lines.

I think a coaching change would be the best solution. Let's compare with other teams. Last year, Pittsburgh and New York were playing great hockey, as we were. This year, not so much, just like us. They both have a coaching change and what do you know, things get better. I'm not saying it would work as well for us, but seeing Carbo coach this team right now is just painful. The thing is, no good coaches are available. Pat Burns (who would be my first choice) has cancer, Larry Robinson has health problems as well, Ted Nolan doesn't have the right reputation. This leaves us with who? Bob Hartley. I don't think he's the one. But at this point, I'd take him over Carbo.

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03-06-2009, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AloneInTokyo View Post
http://www.corussports.com/canadiens...5-1448201.html

One word. Communication.

Make that work, and a whole lot less will go wrong.
I heard he was pretty good at communicating with a whistle...

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03-06-2009, 08:36 AM
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Whitesnake
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Just can't believe what had happened with Tanguay yesterday...Carbo implying as if Tanguay was the one taking himself out of the lineup, Tanguay saying he's just respecting what the doctors said...

From what Tanguay already said about his icetime earlier in the year, if anybody is still wondering if Tanguay will be back next year....

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03-06-2009, 08:38 AM
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His whole system is completely wrong for the type of players he has.

And he is just completely botching Andrei Kostitsyn.

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03-06-2009, 09:00 AM
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Erik Estrada
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Carbo works hard, and expects the same from his players. I find he's had the most success getting the best out of players that play his brand of two way hockey (see Kostopoulos, Lapierre).

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03-06-2009, 09:02 AM
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I'm not defending Carbo much

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
His whole system is completely wrong for the type of players he has.

And he is just completely botching Andrei Kostitsyn.
but if your defence and goaltenders are not doing the job, how is that the coach's fault? He can't cover a man in front, throw a check or stop a puck.

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03-06-2009, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Just can't believe what had happened with Tanguay yesterday...Carbo implying as if Tanguay was the one taking himself out of the lineup, Tanguay saying he's just respecting what the doctors said...

From what Tanguay already said about his icetime earlier in the year, if anybody is still wondering if Tanguay will be back next year....
Well let's see the brighter side, at least he can't ask for a trade...

Carbo. I think Lapierre and Lats are the only québécois players he hasn't had problems with. So much for having a french-speaking, Quebec-born coach.

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03-06-2009, 09:07 AM
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Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by Akost View Post
Well let's see the brighter side, at least he can't ask for a trade...

Carbo. I think Lapierre and Lats are the only québécois players he hasn't had problems with. So much for having a french-speaking, Quebec-born coach.
I agree with you that there was never an overt rift but his communication with Lats hasn't always been great. By contrast, I feel he knows exactly which button to press to get the best out of Lapierre.

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Old
03-06-2009, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
He got them to work one year. You can't be a coach in this league if you are successful once. You need to adapt and need to work and progress with your players. He fails to do this.
And yet Lindy Ruff has been strugling to make the freakin playoffs for the past couple of years.

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03-06-2009, 09:11 AM
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Lol how can a bad coach do that? Well gee I don't know, by having a good team maybe? Just because last season a bunch of amateur journalists thought we'd be in 10th and we wound up in 1st doesn't magically make Carb a picture perfect coach.

And for the record, much of his success last year was due to the fact that he for once in his career, KEPT THE LINES THE SAME for the most part.

This year he went back to old habits because he panicked because of injuries. I don't blame him but damn we have 95% of our team now keep the lines the same until the playoffs for craps sake.

To just say he's a good coach based on last year is laughable though, it was a team effort last year, our team played like a team and many young players played well and so did many veterans. They played well as a team together so it's no wonder they did well.

This year, it seems it's mainly individuals trying to carry the entire team on their back and that rarely works unless it's a goalie who is hot.

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03-06-2009, 09:12 AM
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The team won last year despite Carbo.

This year, well, there's only so much you can do.

He is just terrible.

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03-06-2009, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
The team won last year despite Carbo.

This year, well, there's only so much you can do.

He is just terrible.
plus one

Very well said.

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03-06-2009, 09:18 AM
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I don't know if it's directly attributable to Carbonneau, but the Habs to me seem to be one of the worst line changing teams in the NHL. I have seen more goals scored against them off bad lines changes than I can count.

Line changes are fundamental hockey, and when they aren't being done properly, it sure makes you wonder.

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Old
03-06-2009, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwang View Post
but if your defence and goaltenders are not doing the job, how is that the coach's fault? He can't cover a man in front, throw a check or stop a puck.
Our team is plain and simple not very good defensively. So why have them playing so passive skating backwards all night? Thats what i mean by wrong system for the type of players he has. These guys excel when they play aggressive hockey and thats what their system should be for 60 minutes a game no matter what the score is.

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03-06-2009, 09:26 AM
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It really goes back to personnel decisions. Many times this year people have speculated that the players are trying to get their coach fired. But it isn't going to happen, since Gainey will stick with Carbonneau through just about anything. The problem is that Carbonneau's philosophy doesn't match the skill set of his team. It's pretty obvious he dislikes his core forwards (their style of play anyway) and loves the grinders like Kostopoulous. Now if the coach isn't going to go, then the problem players are going to have go. That's where the big list of soon to be free agents comes in.

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03-06-2009, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisJCloutier View Post
When everyone were saying that this team would be lucky to even make it into the playoff, they finished first in the East.

How can a coach that is so bad, having no system at all, having bad communication and making poor game decision can bring a team to the top just like that ?
The thing is, Carbonneau did not bring the team to the top.

We had a mediocre record, except for Boston and Philadelphia. Every game counts, that is true, but it did make our record look much better than it really was. We had a 35-25-10 record against teams other than Boston and Philadelphia... that's 0.500 hockey (I'm talking about Win % here, not Points %).

Also, remember that we had Kovalev playing the best hockey of his career, no significant injury and our goaltending was on fire all year long. This team didn't have to face any real adversity.

This year, we see the real Habs, a team that will have to fight until the last game in order to secure a playoffs spot and that, baring a miracle, won't make it past the first or second round should they make the playoffs. They crumble in the face of adversity and nobody sticks up for each other. I have no clue how we can be right up against the cap with such a ****** lineup.

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Old
03-06-2009, 09:31 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Schwang View Post
but if your defence and goaltenders are not doing the job, how is that the coach's fault? He can't cover a man in front, throw a check or stop a puck.
Unfortunately you're right, he can't do those things. BUT as unfair as it might seem, it's his job to motivate his players to do those things or to make them WANT to do those things.

Carbo rewards the players for working hard, but it doesn't seem like most of our players want to work for him.

I think Gainey has acknowledged that his coaching staff needs to get more out of our current players.

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03-06-2009, 09:32 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by LouisJCloutier View Post
Listening to the TV, tuning to the radio, reading comments here on HFboars, I see a lot of bad thing beeing said about Guy Carbonneau.

Now, it's pretty clear that Carbonneau isn't a perfect coach. Bu then again, who is ?

When everyone were saying that this team would be lucky to even make it into the playoff, they finished first in the East.

How can a coach that is so bad, having no system at all, having bad communication and making poor game decision can bring a team to the top just like that ?

Can we please stop talking about Carbonneau ? Can we stop saying that everything that doesn't work his is fault ?
Well that depends....
  • Do you think sitting out team veterens on a consistant basis (when they are playing well even) is a great idea?
  • Do you think a good coach does that consistantly without even speaking to the player or explaining why?
  • Do you think playing snipers on the 4th line is a good strategic move?
  • Do you think playing defensemen on the 1st line is a good tactical decision?
  • Do you think sending out 4th line grinders to take an important face off in the other team's end, with 30 seconds to go, while one goal down is a good idea?
  • Do you think not calling a timeout while taking a faceoff in the other teams end, while a goal down, is a good move?
  • Do you think leaving a young goalie with a fragile psyche in goal to be scored on for 5 goals, 6 goals, 7 goals and 5 goals on respective nights will help him play with greater confidence?
  • Do you think blasting your best and hardest working players in the open media on a NIGHTLY basis is going to help bond the team to you?
  • Do you think having a policy of not speaking to your own players is a good way to open the lines of communication?
If that's your idea of a great coach then yeah I guess he's alright, because he's done all of the above on a consistant basis.

Fact is no one is saying that everything is his fault, and he does have a system in place. He's just not a very good coach is all. He does not treat his veterans with respect, he doesn't really know how to make proper lines. He's not much of a tactician, and he's got an inexplicable aversion to communicating with his players for some reason.

Frankly I don't care what the results are, I mean if we'd be 1st in the league we'd all be scratching our heads wondering why it works, and shut up about our complaints. People HATED Scotty Bowman for example but his head games and antics produced results. With Carbonneau, what he's doing is not producing results, so the things he's doing people think are just flat out stupid are going to be talked about.

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Old
03-06-2009, 09:34 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akost View Post
One year doesn't make a career. That goes for the players but ALSO for the coach.

While Carbo isn't the only problem this year, he's definitely a big part of the problem. When there are multiple players coming out and saying that he doesn't communicate with his players, it clearly shows something is wrong. The coach should be close with his players, have a bond. Maybe that bond was there last year, but it's clearly gone now.

He makes piss-poor decisions in the most crucial times (no timeouts, bad line management at the end of a game, etc.) and then blames the players in his post-game interviews. Sure some players clearly lack effort, but I think it has a lot to do with not wanting to play for that coach.

Furthermore, he tries to impose a system that's the polar opposite of the one we played last year by having a team made for all-out offense play the trap and a dump-in, forecheck game. And what do you know, it works for the 3rd line and sometimes the 4th, but that isn't the style of hockey that's made for the top 2 lines.

I think a coaching change would be the best solution. Let's compare with other teams. Last year, Pittsburgh and New York were playing great hockey, as we were. This year, not so much, just like us. They both have a coaching change and what do you know, things get better. I'm not saying it would work as well for us, but seeing Carbo coach this team right now is just painful. The thing is, no good coaches are available. Pat Burns (who would be my first choice) has cancer, Larry Robinson has health problems as well, Ted Nolan doesn't have the right reputation. This leaves us with who? Bob Hartley. I don't think he's the one. But at this point, I'd take him over Carbo.
I spend some time on here and I have not read anything about the players saying they cannot communicate with the coach, although I would like to get some insight into this, could you help me out with some links.

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