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Old
03-08-2009, 01:11 PM
  #126
kenabnrmal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
This isn't about Selanne. Its about having a first unit that can score a goal.
No, actually the sentence you picked out was in reference to your point that he his numbers on the pp haven't been very good, so it was about Selanne.

The whole context of my point has been that it's not about Ryan (or Selanne) "deserving" anything. It's about pp success.

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It's the NHL, and this is a team in a playoff race, and it's about what is going to help the team win, not what a rookie "deserves".

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03-08-2009, 01:54 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
The whole context of my point has been that it's not about Ryan (or Selanne) "deserving" anything. It's about pp success.
Re-read your section "b)" and then tell me you don't think Selanne deserves to be on the 1st unit regardless of production.

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03-08-2009, 03:51 PM
  #128
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Gigure today or Hiller?

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03-08-2009, 04:38 PM
  #129
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Gigure today or Hiller?
Hiller, please.

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Old
03-08-2009, 05:00 PM
  #130
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It'll be Giguere.

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03-08-2009, 06:15 PM
  #131
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Who cares, Ott just got tooled again.

Montreal then kills off all the PPs and scores to tie it.

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03-08-2009, 07:00 PM
  #132
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What thread is this again?

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03-08-2009, 08:00 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Hank View Post
Re-read your section "b)" and then tell me you don't think Selanne deserves to be on the 1st unit regardless of production.
For christ's sake, "b" is about him "deserving" to be man crushed. No where to I mention pp time. By separating it, I tried to make it clear that while I think anyone having a "man crush" on Selanne is perfectly reasonable, it is certainly a separate issue from whether or not Ryan should take his place on the first pp unit. Either I didn't do a good job of making that clear and I should try a different separator, or you're just grasping at straws.

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03-08-2009, 09:51 PM
  #134
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I said this before and I'll say it again. Fire Carlyle! If anything, this team needs a jolt. It worked in Pittsburg and Ottawa to a lesser degree. We are in desperation mode. I think Carlyle is a good coach but its not working anymore. We need new leadership.

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03-08-2009, 09:54 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc View Post
I said this before and I'll say it again. Fire Carlyle! If anything, this team needs a jolt. It worked in Pittsburg and Ottawa to a lesser degree. We are in desperation mode. I think Carlyle is a good coach but its not working anymore. We need new leadership.
Firing the coach seems like letting the players off the hook to me. Keep Carlyle, get rid of the guys who cant play to their contracts.

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03-09-2009, 01:34 PM
  #136
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On a related note, Dallas has reportedly inked Sutherby to a 2 year contract extension, worth about $800k per season.

As a result of this, the Ducks pick up a 6th in 2010.

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03-09-2009, 09:34 PM
  #137
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Yes a 6th! My prayers are answered!

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03-09-2009, 10:35 PM
  #138
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O'Dell who?

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Old
03-10-2009, 09:05 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
What the hell, may as well lob into the *****-fest.

"Deserves it". "Man crush". Bleah

a) I love the continued notion that Ryan should be on the first pp unit because he "deserves it". What is this, peewee? Are Ryan's guardians going to ask Coach Randy for a meeting after practice to discuss his lack of deserved power play time? It's the NHL, and this is a team in a playoff race, and it's about what is going to help the team win, not what a rookie "deserves".

Someone has to anchor the second unit, and with three "top unit" qualified wingers on the team, I think it makes sense to place the best playmaker of the three on the second unit. I don't think it makes any sense to put Teemu on the second unit. He doesn't turn the puck over near as much as you suggest. The threat of a sniper on the half-boards opens up space for the rest of the unit to work. Teemu works best in give-and-go or one-time situations, or finding weak spots in the pk and explointing them. Because of this, he's best with creative offensive players, guys like the ones on the top unit. Place him on the second unit, and I think he'll be far less effective since he's never been on to create opportunities for himself aside from using his speed through the neutral zone and catching d flat-footed.

Ryan's amazing, but at this point he's best at creating opportunities for himself as opposed to feeding off of others. That's why it makes sense to put him with the "lesser" offensive players on the second unit. Just him being there makes the second unit a threat. Now, you're right, he did do quite well when he subbed for Selanne while he was injured. I'd really have no problem with putting him on the first unit in place of Perry. But, there is solid and clear reasoning for keeping Selanne on the top unit and having Ryan anchor the second. It's not the petty notion of one "deserving it" more than the other.

b) "Man crush"? **** me, 572 goals, nearly 1200 points, scoring at a 30+ goal clip again this season and ranking in the top-10 in the league in pp goals despite missing a good chunk of the season (I'm well aware most of those took place at the start of the year), no kidding he has a "man crush" on Selanne.

Selanne has been no where near the level he was at earlier this season, so using that argument is stupid. The bolded part makes my point even clearer. You, like RC are using his past achievements to keep him over Ryan. Did you watch our powerplay when Selanne was replaced with Ryan?? It was better and continuing to get better. What happens when Selanne comes back? He replaces Ryan with Selanne and the powerplay unit cools off. I know this isn't peewee, it's a league that results are what matters, not what's been the best in the past. Out of curiosity are you watching the powerplays lately? Selanne is a turn over machine. Honestly, I can't believe that more of you don't see it. Plus using the whole "ryan can anchor the 2nd unit" is pointless. The 2nd unit sees tops of 30 seconds per powerplay. At this point we're relying on the top PP unit to score. Last game against Minnesota proved my point even more IMO. Seriously if you have that game taped, watch the powerplays and count how many times Selanne turned the puck over. Better yet, watch the next game and just keep your eye on Selanne.

Maybe "man-crush" was to harsh because of the anger I had at the time, but it's really not far off. It's this stupid loyality RC has towards the veterans. He keeps Selanne on the top unit because of how good he was at the start of the season. Lately he's sucked, and it's evident if you really watch him. That fluke goal he got a few weeks ago was luck. He fanned on a perfect shot, and the goalie blew it. We don't have time to wait for that unit to click again. We're most likely probably out of time now. RC realized that Ryan deserved to be on the top unit last game, but he took the wrong guy out. Perry has frustrated me lately, but he's needed on the top unit IMO. He goes to the areas that others won't. The first unit should be: Pronger, S.Niedermayer, Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan. The second unit should be: Whitney, Wiz, Ebbett, Selanne, and EC (yeah I know he's gay, but it's the best option right now.)

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Old
03-10-2009, 11:35 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
Selanne has been no where near the level he was at earlier this season, so using that argument is stupid. The bolded part makes my point even clearer. You, like RC are using his past achievements to keep him over Ryan. Did you watch our powerplay when Selanne was replaced with Ryan?? It was better and continuing to get better. What happens when Selanne comes back? He replaces Ryan with Selanne and the powerplay unit cools off. I know this isn't peewee, it's a league that results are what matters, not what's been the best in the past. Out of curiosity are you watching the powerplays lately? Selanne is a turn over machine. Honestly, I can't believe that more of you don't see it. Plus using the whole "ryan can anchor the 2nd unit" is pointless. The 2nd unit sees tops of 30 seconds per powerplay. At this point we're relying on the top PP unit to score. Last game against Minnesota proved my point even more IMO. Seriously if you have that game taped, watch the powerplays and count how many times Selanne turned the puck over. Better yet, watch the next game and just keep your eye on Selanne.

Maybe "man-crush" was to harsh because of the anger I had at the time, but it's really not far off. It's this stupid loyality RC has towards the veterans. He keeps Selanne on the top unit because of how good he was at the start of the season. Lately he's sucked, and it's evident if you really watch him. That fluke goal he got a few weeks ago was luck. He fanned on a perfect shot, and the goalie blew it. We don't have time to wait for that unit to click again. We're most likely probably out of time now. RC realized that Ryan deserved to be on the top unit last game, but he took the wrong guy out. Perry has frustrated me lately, but he's needed on the top unit IMO. He goes to the areas that others won't. The first unit should be: Pronger, S.Niedermayer, Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan. The second unit should be: Whitney, Wiz, Ebbett, Selanne, and EC (yeah I know he's gay, but it's the best option right now.)
Even more "stupid" is ignoring the fact that I TWICE explained that by no means is "b" an argument in favor of keeping him on the first unit. It was meant to point out how insipid it was to use the term "man-crush" in reference to Selanne. I detailed pretty clearly why I think Selanne's an important piece on the first unit despite his lack of production of late, none of which included past performance. But hey, why read. I also stated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
EDIT:

I probably haven't thought it all the way through. With the new additions, perhaps a Teemu-anchored second unit could work. He works well with Ebbett, and with the additions on D the Ducks now have four pretty good PP point options. It could work. I just strongly rail against the flippant notion that he's on the first unit due to some misplaced "man-crush".
Imagine that, someone admitting their gut reaction out of "anger" or otherwise could be wrong. Yeah, Ryan - Getzlaf -Perry may work as the first unit. I still think Selanne adds an important dimension to the first unit.

Oh, also...

- there isn't a coach in the world that would argue that the second pp unit is "pointless". 30 seconds, give or take, is very important when you have a man advantage. "Pointless", now that is a "stupid" argument.

- Selanne has turned over the puck more lately, you're right about that. He's also handling it a lot more than he should be. As I mentioned (and you clearly ignored), he works best in give and go situations, and exploiting weaknesses in the D. Not handling the puck. This could either be a) poor decision making on his behalf, or b) a lack of options due to ineffective execution by the unit as a whole. I haven't studied the tape to know which it is. It sounds like you have though, given the tone of your post.

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03-12-2009, 12:47 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
Even more "stupid" is ignoring the fact that I TWICE explained that by no means is "b" an argument in favor of keeping him on the first unit. It was meant to point out how insipid it was to use the term "man-crush" in reference to Selanne. I detailed pretty clearly why I think Selanne's an important piece on the first unit despite his lack of production of late, none of which included past performance. But hey, why read. I also stated...



Imagine that, someone admitting their gut reaction out of "anger" or otherwise could be wrong. Yeah, Ryan - Getzlaf -Perry may work as the first unit. I still think Selanne adds an important dimension to the first unit.

Oh, also...

- there isn't a coach in the world that would argue that the second pp unit is "pointless". 30 seconds, give or take, is very important when you have a man advantage. "Pointless", now that is a "stupid" argument.

- Selanne has turned over the puck more lately, you're right about that. He's also handling it a lot more than he should be. As I mentioned (and you clearly ignored), he works best in give and go situations, and exploiting weaknesses in the D. Not handling the puck. This could either be a) poor decision making on his behalf, or b) a lack of options due to ineffective execution by the unit as a whole. I haven't studied the tape to know which it is. It sounds like you have though, given the tone of your post.
In reguards to your first paragraph: I never disreguarded anything you said, so saying "why read" doesn't make any since. IMO you're thinking to much into "what works" on a powerplay unit. Quite honestly, I think RC is doing the same thing. It may seem like a good fit, but that doesn't matter. Results are what matter, and especially now when we're down to less then 20 games. I understand you're logic, and I never ignored it, but keeping Selanne on the top unit is a mistake IMO. You're giving reasons why it's not so I'm countering them. I used the term man crush because IMO there's really no reason to play Selanne over Ryan other then past achievements and favortism. Is that right? Maybe, that's what I think anyway. Ryan's the better player right now, and he deserves to be there. So I'm not ignoring what you said at all. I understand that you think there's reason to keep him on the 1st unit, but IMO there isn't anymore. We should go with what works, not with what "should work or what goes together.

In reguards to your second paragraph: First off, I didn't read your other response to the other poster before replying to your reply to me. I reply to what's said to my post, and then continue reading so I don't forget what I want to say. So that's why I didn't take any of that post into consideration when I replied to your post. The 2nd unit may be important, but with the way RC dishes out ice time on powerplay units, the first one is by a very big margin more important then the second. Therefore it's smarter to load up the 1st unit as RC tries to do. You had a pretty good analysis of what he's been doing wrong. He's just making stupid decisions for the most part, or just to easily being knocked off the puck along the boards. I have watched almost every Ducks game this season, and lately Selanne has been a complete liability on the powerplay. He's used on the side for his one timer and his shot just isn't what it used to be. He continues to fan on shot after shot. Again I never ignored anything you said, just disagreed with some of it.

It should be noted though that tonights powerplays change a lot of things. RC didn't just change up the personell, he changed the style as Hazy pointed out. Before it was a point oriented powerplay with occasional quick feeds down low. Which is why I thought Perry was more needed on the top unit then Selanne. S.Niedermayer was the only one getting in the goalies face when it Getzlaf, Selanne, and Ryan as the forards. Tonight the powerplay tried to be more of a puck moving powerplay with give and goes and quick passes. Like you said earlier that is what Selanne is better at. He still had a few turnovers, but he was very effective tonight. RC decided to change the powerplay style with 15 games left in the season. If it stays this style then Selanne should probably stay there, for at least a while anyway. If he goes back to the old style then it should be Getzlaf, Ryan, and Perry as the forwards. Let Selanne work with Ebbett on the 2nd unit and see if they can get a quick transition goal in the 30 seconds of powerplay time the 2nd unit gets. That's not a for sure definite fix, but it provided the best stretch our powerplay had. Selanne struggled tremendously recently (other then tonight) so if they go back to the old style, it's definitely time for a change.

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Old
03-12-2009, 12:59 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
For christ's sake, "b" is about him "deserving" to be man crushed. No where to I mention pp time. By separating it, I tried to make it clear that while I think anyone having a "man crush" on Selanne is perfectly reasonable, it is certainly a separate issue from whether or not Ryan should take his place on the first pp unit. Either I didn't do a good job of making that clear and I should try a different separator, or you're just grasping at straws.
He's not grasping at straws by any means. Quite honestly I thought you were adding reasons to keep Selanne there as well. You respond to my post the way you did and say he deserves to be man crushed, it really sounds like you're defending his right to be on the top unit. So when you say "he deserves to be man crushed" are you saying that about RC. Because the first thing that brought this up was me saying that RC's man crush on Selanne was killing our top unit, which you immediately snapped at by the way. Selanne has done a lot for this organization, but he doesn't deserve to be on the top unit if we go back to powerplay style before tonights (Van) game.

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03-12-2009, 01:03 AM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal View Post
No, actually the sentence you picked out was in reference to your point that he his numbers on the pp haven't been very good, so it was about Selanne.

The whole context of my point has been that it's not about Ryan (or Selanne) "deserving" anything. It's about pp success
.
It's about what works. Not what's worked in the past. Our pp success isn't good with Selanne over Ryan, hence why I think Ryan deserves it more.

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03-12-2009, 11:01 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
It's about what works. Not what's worked in the past. Our pp success isn't good with Selanne over Ryan, hence why I think Ryan deserves it more.
Well, now they're both on the top unit and still no goals.

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03-14-2009, 09:27 AM
  #145
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Well, now they're both on the top unit and still no goals.
I never wanted them both to be on the top unit...

Take Selanne off that unit and do a top unit of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Pronger, and S.Niedermayer. Second unit: Christiansen, Ebbett, Selanne, Whitney, and Wiz.

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03-14-2009, 11:25 AM
  #146
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Well, now they're both on the top unit and still no goals.
But they looked better as far as moving the puck and creating chances... and that's what counts.

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03-15-2009, 12:55 AM
  #147
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Producing is what counts, creating chances doesn't mean anything when the chances aren't going in.

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03-15-2009, 07:30 AM
  #148
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Producing is what counts, creating chances doesn't mean anything when the chances aren't going in.
This could go on forever...you don't produce if you don't get chances, blah blah blah...

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