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Old
03-07-2009, 02:06 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
That is some pretty high expectations...I just don't get it. Why get rid of the guy who has proven that when given a fair chance can score on the chance that all these guys will? He might not pan out but I just have a feeling that we would REALLY regret it if we let him go.

I am also tired of the "he wants to go back to Russia" thing. He clearly wants to play here. Why doesn't Tiki get the same treatment? The only reason he is playing in the NHL now is because he WILL go back to Russia if faced with the AHL. Lisin did a full year in the AHL, paid his dues and is still not given a fair shake.

I believe that the team is far more entertaining with Lisin on it than not. If we are going to suck I want to be entertained.
The NHL is more culturally ingrained into Tikhonov. He considers the US home. He grew up around an NHL team. I'm not quite sure Lisin sees it the same way.

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03-07-2009, 02:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
. Lisin did a full year in the AHL, paid his dues and is still not given a fair shake.

I believe that the team is far more entertaining with Lisin on it than not. If we are going to suck I want to be entertained.
Their are plenty of kids that "pay their dues" in the AHL that never get a big league shot, incl Spina. How has he not been given a fair shake? He's been here for 80% of the season now and has 1 more point than Turris. 10 goals, 7 ass. and a -18 I'm not saying we give up on him, but at some point we need to realize perhaps he's a 1 dimensional player.

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03-07-2009, 02:45 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by k1llua View Post
The NHL is more culturally ingrained into Tikhonov. He considers the US home. He grew up around an NHL team. I'm not quite sure Lisin sees it the same way.
Ok I would buy that theory IF it were true. Tiki flat out said if he doesn't play in the NHL he goes back to Russia.

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03-07-2009, 02:47 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
Their are plenty of kids that "pay their dues" in the AHL that never get a big league shot, incl Spina. How has he not been given a fair shake? He's been here for 80% of the season now and has 1 more point than Turris. 10 goals, 7 ass. and a -18 I'm not saying we give up on him, but at some point we need to realize perhaps he's a 1 dimensional player.
I am at work now so I can't do the research but just a quick look at the game by game lines I would have to disagree with you that he has been given the opportunity to play on the top two lines on a consistant basis. Just take a look.

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03-07-2009, 02:56 PM
  #30
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Ok I would buy that theory IF it were true. Tiki flat out said if he doesn't play in the NHL he goes back to Russia.
HE never SAID that. It's written into his contract that he can go back if he was sent down but would have to come back if he were called up. At no point was a "If you send me down, I'm going to Russia and never coming back" situation discussed.

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03-07-2009, 03:02 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by k1llua View Post
HE never SAID that. It's written into his contract that he can go back if he was sent down but would have to come back if he were called up. At no point was a "If you send me down, I'm going to Russia and never coming back" situation discussed.
I never said that he said he would NEVER come back. And I don't care if it is written in his contract or not it still sucks and is the only reason he is playing in the NHL right now. He along with Turris should be in San Antonio right now, not forever but at this moment they should be.

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03-07-2009, 03:38 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
I never said that he said he would NEVER come back. And I don't care if it is written in his contract or not it still sucks and is the only reason he is playing in the NHL right now. He along with Turris should be in San Antonio right now, not forever but at this moment they should be.
A couple of things:

* Tikhonov never EVER threatened to go back to Russia. You're thinking of Lisin or Nikulin. In fact, in an interview with XM Tikhonov said, and I quote, "I'm going to do whatever I need to do to stick in the NHL. If it means going down and getting experience, that's what I'll do." He specifically said he was not interested in going back to Russia.

* He's already spent some time in San Antonio this season, but I doubt he'll go back because there are no roster limits right now.

* The reason he's playing in the NHL right now is because the coaching staff like his play even if you don't.

* Get used to seeing the young guys like Turris and Tikh playing because now that we're out of the playoffs the young prospect guys are going to get more ice time. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Porter and Kolarik - and maybe even MacLean - get a cup of coffee this season.

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03-07-2009, 04:05 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
A couple of things:

* Tikhonov never EVER threatened to go back to Russia. You're thinking of Lisin or Nikulin. In fact, in an interview with XM Tikhonov said, and I quote, "I'm going to do whatever I need to do to stick in the NHL. If it means going down and getting experience, that's what I'll do." He specifically said he was not interested in going back to Russia.
* He's already spent some time in San Antonio this season, but I doubt he'll go back because there are no roster limits right now.

* The reason he's playing in the NHL right now is because the coaching staff like his play even if you don't.

* Get used to seeing the young guys like Turris and Tikh playing because now that we're out of the playoffs the young prospect guys are going to get more ice time. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Porter and Kolarik - and maybe even MacLean - get a cup of coffee this season.
I never heard this interview but I did hear other interviews and Maloney say it himself that it was either the NHL or Russia. His cup of coffee in San Antonio this year was a conditioning stint after his hand injury...doesn't count in my opinon. Maybe he has had a change of heart, maybe he just said what the fans needed to hear who knows?

I am all for seeing the young kids getting their chance, all I am asking is to give Lisin his chance (he is one of the young guys too).

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03-07-2009, 04:19 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
I never heard this interview but I did hear other interviews and Maloney say it himself that it was either the NHL or Russia. His cup of coffee in San Antonio this year was a conditioning stint after his hand injury...doesn't count in my opinon. Maybe he has had a change of heart, maybe he just said what the fans needed to hear who knows?

I am all for seeing the young kids getting their chance, all I am asking is to give Lisin his chance (he is one of the young guys too).
From what I count from mouser he played at least 8 games on the top line and equally as many on the 2nd. (BTW what a mess the line juggling is?) Maybe he's not busting his hump in practice, IDK Between last year and this you can't say the kid hasn't been given a fair shake.

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03-07-2009, 04:32 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TeamTurris View Post
From what I count from mouser he played at least 8 games on the top line and equally as many on the 2nd. (BTW what a mess the line juggling is?) Maybe he's not busting his hump in practice, IDK Between last year and this you can't say the kid hasn't been given a fair shake.
Look I understand where you are coming from but I just completely disagree that he has been given a fair shot. So let's say your numbers are correct and he played on the top line and 2nd line for a total of 16 times...how many of those were with the same linemates? I hate all the line juggling too which is part of the problem. The whole team can't score, if you can't score you better play defense (again I understand this is Lisin's biggest problem) but what do you do when the whole team can't play defense? You need to score!

We have a ton of bottom line players and not enough top liners. Why are we not developing top liners? Throw the offensively gifted players out there on the top two lines and give them a shot!!!! TGO needs to quit scratching him and just let him play now more than ever instead of throwing the players who will never be more than good 3rd or 4th liners onto the top lines as fill ins. It is just a waste of time especially since we are out of it now.

BTW: According to his stat page...Lisin only played 13 games in the NHL last year and 17 the first year. He has played a total of 73 in three years under TGO (which most of us can agree isn't a very good coach) and everyone is ready to give up on him? I just don't understand it that's all.


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03-07-2009, 05:26 PM
  #36
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I thought he played 1/3rd last yr up here. My bad. Everyone is handycaped with the line juggling. But maybe your right IDK, I will agree I think the kid is capable of more. Thats why I suggested pencil him in next yr, give him to the trade deadline, if he's in the same boat then get something for him while you can. I'm just not seeing anything to demonstrate he can score off of anything but the stretch pass. Maybe Sunday.

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03-07-2009, 05:28 PM
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We have a ton of bottom line players and not enough top liners. Why are we not developing top liners? Throw the offensively gifted players out there on the top two lines and give them a shot!!!! TGO needs to quit scratching him and just let him play now more than ever instead of throwing the players who will never be more than good 3rd or 4th liners onto the top lines as fill ins. It is just a waste of time especially since we are out of it now.
I don't consider Enver Lisin a 1st line guy. Potentially, yes, but he'd have to really step up his game to do it.

I'd like to hear who you think are the "good 3rd or 4th liners" who are fill-ins on the top line so I can understand the comparisons you're making.

I like Enver's speed and I like his flashiness. The rest of his game I'm not sold on.

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03-07-2009, 05:47 PM
  #38
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I don't consider Enver Lisin a 1st line guy. Potentially, yes, but he'd have to really step up his game to do it.

I'd like to hear who you think are the "good 3rd or 4th liners" who are fill-ins on the top line so I can understand the comparisons you're making.

I like Enver's speed and I like his flashiness. The rest of his game I'm not sold on.
On your fisrt point, I don't think anyone right now on our team is a first liner on most other teams including Doan. Potentially, we have a few but our team is full of players that are oozing potential because we are so young.

I will get back to you on your second point tonight when I get home.

I am not sold on Enver either I am just not even close to ready to throw him away like some people are. This is the point I am trying to make. He has played less games than all of our second year guys who are in slumps but no one is throwing them out to pasture.

Maybe Team Turris is right, maybe he doesn't practice hard but according to Telly no ones does.

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03-07-2009, 05:51 PM
  #39
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That is some pretty high expectations...I just don't get it. Why get rid of the guy who has proven that when given a fair chance can score on the chance that all these guys will? He might not pan out but I just have a feeling that we would REALLY regret it if we let him go.

I am also tired of the "he wants to go back to Russia" thing. He clearly wants to play here. Why doesn't Tiki get the same treatment? The only reason he is playing in the NHL now is because he WILL go back to Russia if faced with the AHL. Lisin did a full year in the AHL, paid his dues and is still not given a fair shake.

I believe that the team is far more entertaining with Lisin on it than not. If we are going to suck I want to be entertained.
It's a high expectation that our skilled young players will do better next year? Okay then...

Also, I didn't mean Lisin will leave to Russia. I know he wants to play in the NHL, I just get the feeling he'd rather try his luck on a new team.

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03-07-2009, 06:15 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by 2yotesfans88 View Post

Reinprect-STAY

Lisin-RFA- STAY

Winnik-RFA- STAY

Prucha-RFA- STAY

Linstrom-RFA-STAY

Upshall-RFA STAY

McGrattan-UFA GO

Dawes-RFA STAY

Goertzen-RFA-GO

Murray-RFA- GO

Hoggan-UFA- GO

Nikulin-RFA- GO

Yandle-RFA STAY

Klee-UFA-STAY

Kalinin-GO

Tordjman-RFA- GO
It's early, but there ya go.

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03-07-2009, 06:19 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ShootThePuckCoyotes View Post
I don't think anyone right now on our team is a first liner on most other teams including Doan.
I think if you transplanted Doan to another team he would be highly motivated and would be a first line player easily. This whole Doan isn't a first line guy I think really needs to stop and should have stopped after his awesome season last year.

His performance right now on THIS team isn't so hot but who's is? Heck, his totals even on this team fit in the point totals of many other teams top 3 guys and in some cases put him top 2.

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03-07-2009, 06:34 PM
  #42
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I think if you transplanted Doan to another team he would be highly motivated and would be a first line player easily. This whole Doan isn't a first line guy I think really needs to stop and should have stopped after his awesome season last year.

His performance right now on THIS team isn't so hot but who's is? Heck, his totals even on this team fit in the point totals of many other teams top 3 guys and in some cases put him top 2.
I love Doan! I didn't mean to be harsh but I think it was recently I decided that Doan is at his best when he doesn't have to play like a first liner. When he doesn't have as much pressure on his shoulders he plays lights out. Look at his international play, he is never a first liner on those stacked Canadian teams.

I agree that he has been our best player for years now, I guess I am just hoping that someone in the talent pool that we have here will prove to be first liners, true first liners.

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03-07-2009, 06:38 PM
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.85 point per game players are second liners, now? Unbelievable. This isn't Detroit.

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03-07-2009, 06:59 PM
  #44
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.85 point per game players are second liners, now? Unbelievable. This isn't Detroit.
I guess everyone is missing my point.

Shane Doan is our best all around player, he is on our first line but that is because he is our best player!!!! He is leading our team in points because he is our best player but I hope that someday we can get to the point when we have some more skill (scoring skill) on our top line than Shane Doan.

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03-07-2009, 07:24 PM
  #45
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I am not sold on Enver either I am just not even close to ready to throw him away like some people are. This is the point I am trying to make. He has played less games than all of our second year guys who are in slumps but no one is throwing them out to pasture.
Look, we all know Gretzky plays favorites miserably, just like he did when he was a player.

But I've gotta expect that for Enver to spend so much time scratched or in SA there's something more than simply being picked on in this scenario.

More than that, though, we've spent years now being promised something about Enver that simply hasn't materialized. I figure that he should get until the deadline next year to make a case for himself to stay on the team - if not, then there's another team out there who we can fool into believing that all he needs is a new team and coach to "blossom."

But the league is littered with guys who have amazing potential, incredible tools, and jack squat to show for it, and thus far Lisin is shaping up to be one of those guys. The question then becomes, how long do we hold up someone else's development to keep giving Enver that one last chance to break out?

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03-07-2009, 07:47 PM
  #46
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Reinprect-UFA - STAY (veteran leadership)

Lisin-RFA - STAY (youth and speed)

Winnik-RFA - STAY (youth and size are pluses. Assume he will bounce back next year)

Prucha-RFA - STAY (youth, speed, and most important - moxie)

Linstrom-RFA - STAY (good 4th line/PK forward)

Upshall-RFA - STAY (energizer, youth, and most important - potential leader)

McGrattan-UFA GO (not conducive to either the Coyotes or Rampage)

Dawes-RFA - STAY (bulldog player)

Goertzen-RFA- STAY (sign only if the contract is appropriate for an AHL level player)

Murray-RFA- STAY (sign only if the contract is appropriate for an AHL level player)

Hoggan-UFA- STAY (sign only if the contract is appropriate for an AHL level player)

Nikulin-RFA- STAY (sign only if the contract is appropriate for an AHL level player)

Yandle-RFA STAY (second pairing defence)

Klee-UFA-STAY (assuming at a reasonable salary. 6th/7th defenceman)

Kalinin-UFA - STAY (assuming at a reasonable salary. 5th/6th/7th defenceman)

Tordjman-RFA- STAY (presumably as the back-up. Has strong work ethic)


Needs of San Antonio have to be considered as creating a strong farm team will pay dividends to the improvement of the Coyotes.

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03-07-2009, 08:00 PM
  #47
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Look, we all know Gretzky plays favorites miserably, just like he did when he was a player.

But I've gotta expect that for Enver to spend so much time scratched or in SA there's something more than simply being picked on in this scenario.

More than that, though, we've spent years now being promised something about Enver that simply hasn't materialized. I figure that he should get until the deadline next year to make a case for himself to stay on the team - if not, then there's another team out there who we can fool into believing that all he needs is a new team and coach to "blossom."

But the league is littered with guys who have amazing potential, incredible tools, and jack squat to show for it, and thus far Lisin is shaping up to be one of those guys. The question then becomes, how long do we hold up someone else's development to keep giving Enver that one last chance to break out?
I pretty much agree with you except who's development is he holding up? If I thought he was holding someone else's development up I might agree with you. I can't think of anyone in San Antonio who needs to be here over him.

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03-07-2009, 09:25 PM
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I pretty much agree with you except who's development is he holding up? If I thought he was holding someone else's development up I might agree with you. I can't think of anyone in San Antonio who needs to be here over him.
Well, that's what I meant - right now he's not holding anyone up, but next season may be a different story. Which is why I say give him until next trade deadline to prove he wants to stick in the league enough to ramp up his game.

We just trade a guy we gave up significant assets for because he wasn't willing to elevate his game and play to his full ability. No reason to keep another guy like that just because he's got great wheels and an occasional flashy offensive move.

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03-07-2009, 09:40 PM
  #49
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Maloney's first job during the offseason should be convincing Gretzky to get his ass back up in the ownership suite and getting a real coaching staff behind the bench...then decide who comes back and who goes.

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03-07-2009, 09:43 PM
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I pretty much agree with you except who's development is he holding up? If I thought he was holding someone else's development up I might agree with you. I can't think of anyone in San Antonio who needs to be here over him.

i think it all boils down to this...... POOR player Developement Program.

look at all our young guys, mainly 2nd year guys. not ONE has a break out season. that tells me they are not handling them correctly.

doan said something interesting, "maybe its me". at face value yes. as far as vets helping rookies. guys like turris, lisin, mueller, they dont play the SAME STYLE as Doan. he can work on them on work ethic that kinda stuff but as far as the way he sees the ice and they see the ice its not the same. doan is much more physical. one would think brining jokinen in would be great for kids like turris and mueller.

jokinen...thats where he failed. a guy like jokinen could really teach a lot to a turris and ESPECIALLY lisin. now bringing in a guy like Lombo is a step in the right direction. hes more laid back and i can really see him liking having the role of the vet.

but still even without a stong goal scorer to work with the kids...wheres SULLIMAN! at some point he needs to take some fault.

take yandle, i think for his age you really cant ask for much more. good boston kid and best of all. i like how he reads plays. his timing on jumping into plays is insanely better than last season. hes not shy but hes not stupid. everyone one is going to get caught once in a while and thats not always your fault. as much as i bag on jovo...if hes been working with yandle at all hes been doing a great job.

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