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Jack Johnson for Jordan Staal in the offseason

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Old
03-12-2009, 10:26 AM
  #251
Knight of the Realm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
The comparison of Staal and Stoll may be slightly valid now, but when Staal hits his prime it won't be. It's also saying something that we are comparing a 20 year old to a 26 year old. Staal has done just as much in a much shorter period of time at a much younger age.

Also Staal's potential has much more liquidity to it. It's really had to nail down because of the position and role he has played in Pittsburgh, and the fact that he is so young still.

Stoll hitting 70 points consistently is a pipe dream, IMO. Staal has a much higher likelihood of being a consistent 70 point guy once he comes into his own, and is put in a situation where he can excel.
I don't think staal will ever hit 70 points in a penguins uniform, not that he doesn't have the skill but crosby and malkin eat up alot of time that it might take for him to accumilate such totals.

Evey single staal for jj proposal turns into a pissing contest. I can not believe how long this thread has gone on for.

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Old
03-12-2009, 10:37 AM
  #252
nickschultzfan
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
The comparison of Staal and Stoll may be slightly valid now, but when Staal hits his prime it won't be. It's also saying something that we are comparing a 20 year old to a 26 year old. Staal has done just as much in a much shorter period of time at a much younger age.

Also Staal's potential has much more liquidity to it. It's really had to nail down because of the position and role he has played in Pittsburgh, and the fact that he is so young still.

Stoll hitting 70 points consistently is a pipe dream, IMO. Staal has a much higher likelihood of being a consistent 70 point guy once he comes into his own, and is put in a situation where he can excel.
Given the same linemates, even if Stoll is a consistent 50-60 point guy, and Staal is a consistent 60-70 point guy, there is not a big enough difference to trade away a top pairing young Dman.

Kopitar, Stoll, and Handzus are a very good group of centers. Yes, they aren't elite, but I would say they are in the top-15 or top-10 in the league. Once their D, wingers, and goalies come more into the pictures, they will be set without making any trades.

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Old
03-12-2009, 12:42 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by the_speedster View Post
who's less than average at checking...

again,

sad plus minus
lower half of the league in takeaways
pathetic short handed scoring
nowhere in hits

but hey,.. he's on someone's "TEAM" so they'll stay in denial
Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Alright, I'm sick of your negative and blatantly false Staal propaganda. Read this carefully, and bookmark it in case you feel like spewing any more garbage about the kid.

Staal's had the 3rd most hits on the Pens after only Cooke and Orpik, but don't let the truth get in the way of your poorly reasoned and fact-free rant.

Staal is outscoring virtually every other 3rd line center in the league at age 20. It's mindless and hopelessly impatient to call brand him a checking line center when he's outscoring all but 6 or so players from his draft class despite the role he's been put in - if you want to label him nothing but a checking line player, be prepared to do the same for Mueller, Okposo, Frolik, Lucic, Giroux, and every other player from the '06 draft class who hasn't outproduced him this year. Never mind that Berglund, who's seen as a burgeoning offensive talent, has all of two more points than Staal.

Staal's +/- is fine, and has improved dramatically under a coach who actually knows what he's doing (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09071/955029-61.stm). But if +/- is the stat we're going with to gauge forwards in their own end, some other worse ones than Staal include Brind'Amour (-27, worst in the entire league...take back the Selke!), Drury, Pahlsson, Rob Niedermayer, Paul Stastny, Chris Kelly, Sakic, Dubinsky, Helm, Draper (another Selke fraud!), and Vermette.

Oh, and Patrik Berglund and Joe Thornton are now both top 10 defensive players in the league.

Contrary to what you suggested for Staal's takeaways, he's actually tied for 32nd in the league, which is miles away from the "lower half" - it's pretty damn close to the top
. He's tied with his brother Eric and Mike Fisher, and ahead of guys like Toews, Drury, Zajac, Brind'Amour, Vermette, Saku Koivu, Madden, Paul Stastny, Patrice Bergeron, Dave Bolland, Dave Krejci, Fedorov, Dubinsky, Rob Niedermayer, Pahlsson, etc., etc., etc.

There are also only 19 players in the whole league with more shorthanded goals. Staal's not putting up the eye-popping shorty numbers that he did in his rookie year, but being tied or ahead of 600+ NHL regulars is anything but pathetic.

But as totally wrong as you are on a statistical front for chastising Staal, all you really need to do to understand his worth is watch the game with an objective eye that a) understands that 20 year olds are still growing their game and working on consistency, and b) doesn't criticize him for not playing the style you prefer, or for having less points than Backstrom, Toews, Berglund, Kessel, and Little.

Now take your ******** elsewhere until you actually have something legitimate to support your crooked opinion.
What a complete and utter beatdown! I haven't seen anyone get this owned in a while. Where's your retort Speedster? And this time try to back it up with facts.

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Old
03-12-2009, 12:55 PM
  #254
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Propaganda

Staal sucks.

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Old
03-12-2009, 01:53 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No, he doesn't. He's out on the 2nd unit.

Berglund's outscored Staal by a small margin and played fewer games. But he's also got the benefit of a top 6 role on a team with very good scoring depth - last I saw, he had Boyes and Perron on his wings. On the Penguins, as the 3rd line center behind Crosby and Malkin, with Cooke and TK as his linemates, he may not be so productive. Or do you not think that playing with a guy who scored 43 goals last year might put you in a position to produce better than playing with a guy who put up 23 points?

Context, people.

And if Staal's the least offensively talented of the players mentioned, good on him for putting up better numbers in a defensive role with less offensively inclined linemates, because I don't quite understand how he'd do it with mediocre offensive skill.

I wouldn't do any variation of Staal for Johnson.
Every Pens fan I've talked to says he gets PP minutes with Malkin and Crosby. We will see but Staal was still a reach at 2nd overall and I'd rather have Berglund or any of the young guys mentioned.

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Old
03-12-2009, 01:56 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Despite all this talk about Jorden Staal's worth and potential, I still don't see how he would be such an improvement over Stoll on the 2nd line that it would justify trading Jack Johnson.


Jordan Staal is probably looking at a ceiling of 35-35-70. Stoll's ceiling is around 25-45-70. While long term, it's pretty clear I rather have Staal as my team's 2nd line center than Stoll, that difference isn't worth a #1/#2 young Dman.
no **** lol.

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Old
03-12-2009, 02:14 PM
  #257
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Jack Johnson > Jordan Staal.

/Discussion.

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Old
03-12-2009, 02:56 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight of the Realm View Post
I don't think staal will ever hit 70 points in a penguins uniform, not that he doesn't have the skill but crosby and malkin eat up alot of time that it might take for him to accumilate such totals.

Evey single staal for jj proposal turns into a pissing contest. I can not believe how long this thread has gone on for.
He is third on the team on minutes and averages 20 a game? He is on pace for the mid 40s in points at 20 years old so I would be willing to bet he gets to 70 in a couple years.

People on this board think they are pro NHL scouts saying they know how good Staal is going to be. They don't.

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Old
03-12-2009, 02:59 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by SabresKings2611 View Post
Jack Johnson > Jordan Staal.

/Discussion.
hahaha You are joking right?

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Old
03-12-2009, 03:12 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Kopitar, Stoll, and Handzus are a very good group of centers. Yes, they aren't elite, but I would say they are in the top-15 or top-10 in the league.
If your 3rd line center is Handzus, you're nowhere NEAR top-10 in the league. MAYBE the LA Kings slot in between 15th and 20th.

Thornton/Pavelski/Marleau
Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Filppula
Jokinen/Langkow/Conroy
Sedin/Sundin/Kesler
Ribeiro/Richards/Modano
Savard/Bergeron/Krejci
Backstrom/Kozlov/Fedorov (or Nylander)
Richards/Carter/Briere
Plekanec/Koivu/Lapierre
Crosby/Malkin/Staal
Gomez/Drury/Dubinsky
Lecavalier/Stamkos/Halpern
Spezza/Fisher/Comrie
Roy/Connolly/Hecht
Staal/Cullen/Brind'Amour

All of those groups I would place above LA's centers.

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Old
03-12-2009, 04:12 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Knight of the Realm View Post
I don't think staal will ever hit 70 points in a penguins uniform, not that he doesn't have the skill but crosby and malkin eat up alot of time that it might take for him to accumilate such totals.
I actually agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Given the same linemates, even if Stoll is a consistent 50-60 point guy, and Staal is a consistent 60-70 point guy, there is not a big enough difference to trade away a top pairing young Dman.

Kopitar, Stoll, and Handzus are a very good group of centers. Yes, they aren't elite, but I would say they are in the top-15 or top-10 in the league. Once their D, wingers, and goalies come more into the pictures, they will be set without making any trades.
Yeah, there isn't enough seperating Staal and Stoll now. Realize this...Stoll is a finished product for the most part. He's in the wheelhouse of his potential. Staal has 6 years or so until he hits that, and how things stand right now, they are very comparable players, regardless of that gap.

Say Staal blossoms. All of a sudden you have lines 1a and 1b with two extremely young, talented, not to mention huge centers to build around. Say he doesn't. Then you are left with Jarret Stoll 2.0 who makes 100k less per season.

The loss of Jack Johnson will be made up within the Kings system. Teubert could easily by next year provide much of the same that JMFJ would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinVanBuren View Post
Propaganda

Staal sucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresKings2611 View Post
Jack Johnson > Jordan Staal.

/Discussion.
Post count: +1. Masterful arguments. Way to add something to the discussion.


Last edited by JTG: 03-12-2009 at 09:35 PM.
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Old
03-12-2009, 04:14 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
If your 3rd line center is Handzus, you're nowhere NEAR top-10 in the league. MAYBE the LA Kings slot in between 15th and 20th.

Thornton/Pavelski/Marleau
Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Filppula
Jokinen/Langkow/Conroy
Sedin/Sundin/Kesler
Ribeiro/Richards/Modano
Savard/Bergeron/Krejci
Backstrom/Kozlov/Fedorov (or Nylander)
Richards/Carter/Briere
Plekanec/Koivu/Lapierre
Crosby/Malkin/Staal
Gomez/Drury/Dubinsky
Lecavalier/Stamkos/Halpern
Spezza/Fisher/Comrie
Roy/Connolly/Hecht
Staal/Cullen/Brind'Amour

All of those groups I would place above LA's centers.
If you take potential into the equation, Edmonton would have to be mentioned also

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Old
03-12-2009, 04:57 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
If your 3rd line center is Handzus, you're nowhere NEAR top-10 in the league. MAYBE the LA Kings slot in between 15th and 20th.

Thornton/Pavelski/Marleau
Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Filppula
Jokinen/Langkow/Conroy
Sedin/Sundin/Kesler
Ribeiro/Richards/Modano
Savard/Bergeron/Krejci
Backstrom/Kozlov/Fedorov (or Nylander)
Richards/Carter/Briere
Plekanec/Koivu/Lapierre
Crosby/Malkin/Staal
Gomez/Drury/Dubinsky
Lecavalier/Stamkos/Halpern
Spezza/Fisher/Comrie
Roy/Connolly/Hecht
Staal/Cullen/Brind'Amour

All of those groups I would place above LA's centers.
A third pf those players play wing and not center on their teams.

I was making a statement about a true 1-2-3 center group. Not "pick 3 guys who can play center from every team ".

For teams that actively roll three centers better than the Kings, you can only honestly say Dallas, Boston, Philly, Pitts, Tampa, Calgary, have a stronger 3 over-all, and Detroit, San Jose, Carolina, maybe Vancouver (depending on who is playing center) are better based on their stars putting them over the top.

But I'm not buying Buffalo, Ottawa, Rangers, Canadiens, and Washington being any stronger, both short-term and long-term.

That puts King somewhere in the 10-15 range for core group of 1-2-3 centers.

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Old
03-12-2009, 05:00 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
If you take potential into the equation, Edmonton would have to be mentioned also
Give me a break. I'm sick of hearing about Edmonton's "talent" and "potential".

Every player on that team beside Hemsky is the same. Small, fast, but soft, with a ceiling of around 60 points with long stretches of inconsistency.

That's not how you build a team.

Have fun constantly wanting to trade your 3x of your mini-me-s for Kovalchuk.

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Old
03-12-2009, 05:13 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by PensFan68 View Post


Great job!! Although, I'm sure there will be more babble. It really isn't worth your time to argue though, but from another Pens fan, thank you for making him look bad. No matter what is said, people will never give Penguin players credit.
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Originally Posted by theboostking View Post
What a complete and utter beatdown! I haven't seen anyone get this owned in a while. Where's your retort Speedster? And this time try to back it up with facts.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 03-12-2009 at 05:18 PM.
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Old
03-12-2009, 05:15 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
Every Pens fan I've talked to says he gets PP minutes with Malkin and Crosby. We will see but Staal was still a reach at 2nd overall and I'd rather have Berglund or any of the young guys mentioned.
you must be talking to a lot of pens fans who don't watch any pens games.

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Old
03-12-2009, 08:38 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Give me a break. I'm sick of hearing about Edmonton's "talent" and "potential".

Every player on that team beside Hemsky is the same. Small, fast, but soft, with a ceiling of around 60 points with long stretches of inconsistency.

That's not how you build a team.
Maybe because their two centers of the future are 19 and 21 respectively. Most players aren't developed at that age. By the hockey smarts you have displayed in this thread, I wouldn't expect you to know that though.

Edmonton's young talent is as skilled as any. I'm by no means a Kevin Lowe fan, but he has drafted a collection of supremely talented players, and for the most part, he took the best players available to him. Regardless of a guys size, if he is in fact the best player on the board, you take them. Adding toughness and size isn't all that hard.

Horcoff, Gagner, and Cogliano is a highly skilled group of centers...much more so than the LA Kings.

Quote:
Have fun constantly wanting to trade your 3x of your mini-me-s for Kovalchuk.
Is this english?

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Old
03-12-2009, 08:57 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
As beautiful as that beatdown was, don't waste any more time with that loser. He's not worth the carpal tunnel.

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Old
03-12-2009, 08:58 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Edmonton's young talent is as skilled as any.
I definitely wouldn't go that far.

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Old
03-12-2009, 09:08 PM
  #270
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Staal for Frolov

thoughts?????

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Old
03-12-2009, 09:12 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by duncanmac12 View Post
Counter:
Staal for Frolov

thoughts?????

NO!!!

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Old
03-12-2009, 09:18 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by duncanmac12 View Post
Counter:
Staal for Frolov

thoughts?????
Frolov is worth more.

I'm not so sure he plays a game that would mesh too well with Crosby or Malkin long-term, either. It doesn't always work when you have two guys who play puck possession games on the same line.

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Old
03-12-2009, 09:34 PM
  #273
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I definitely wouldn't go that far.
I should have added "centers" to that since that is what we are talking about. I would say Horcoff, Gagner, and Cogliano could hold their own as far as skilled centermen goes.

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Old
03-12-2009, 09:38 PM
  #274
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No he is correct.Stall equals 3 liner at best

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Old
03-12-2009, 10:03 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Frolov is worth more.

I'm not so sure he plays a game that would mesh too well with Crosby or Malkin long-term, either. It doesn't always work when you have two guys who play puck possession games on the same line.
it's worked well with Kopitar.......

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