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It always truely baffles me that once a team gets 2 really good dmen that everyone else is expendable. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having too many good defensemen
From a business point there is.
You have to factor in that once there is a logjam, their value will decrease as we may be forced to move them.
Let me ask you this. How do you envision our defensive lineup to look in 2 yrs?
Johnson/Doughty
Quincey/Greene
Voinov/FA, Drewiske, or Martinez
Teubert and hickey in the AHL
I think in a couple years the days of seeing very young King rookies will be over. Players will be developed in the AHL the right way...
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that two players who were both picked in the top half of the first round in their respective drafts will both be on the big squad in 2 years.
It's the way Lombardi runs his ship. Voinov has seniority, period. Who woulda thought Quick would get the chance first over the highly touted first rounder (Bernier). It was all seniority.
There will no longer be a need to rush guys. Teubert is kind of a project anyways. Hickey will have a shot at it...but Voinov has seniority.
It just doesn't fill a need for the Penguins at all.
Johnson is of a similar pedigree to Goligoski and Letang. If Staal was going to the LAK, it would be in a deal around him for Frolov (or a different quality young winger).
guess what? Today was yet ANOTHER big game.. Crosby did his part, malkin too, even tyler "man-bear-pig" kennedy...
today, what did staal do? Big game... everyone got on the ice.. where did you notice him making a difference?
Other than his powerplay goal, when did you notice Ovechkin making a difference today?
You didn't, because Staal's line contained him all game.
The guy is a very good defensive player. He's a mediocre second line center offensively, but he is the only forward the Pens have who can play any semblance of a shutdown role.
It's the way Lombardi runs his ship. Voinov has seniority, period. Who woulda thought Quick would get the chance first over the highly touted first rounder (Bernier). It was all seniority.
There will no longer be a need to rush guys. Teubert is kind of a project anyways. Hickey will have a shot at it...but Voinov has seniority.
It's not rushing. Teubert and Hickey at the start of the 2011-12 season will most likely be very ready for the NHL. Seniority only goes so far. You don't keep players as talented and promising as Hickey and Teubert in the AHL all because of seniority. If the Kings GM infact operates like that, he will have many a front office people and talent evaluators telling him that he's running his ship like an *******.
I could also be wrong, but I do believe that Teubert was said to be one of the closest to NHL ready defensemen in his respective draft. There's not much of a project there. The guy has a meager offensive game with a downright nasty defensive game.
In all honesty, I won't be shocked if one or both will be on the NHL roster at sometime next season.
It just doesn't fill a need for the Penguins at all.
Johnson is of a similar pedigree to Goligoski and Letang. If Staal was going to the LAK, it would be in a deal around him for Frolov (or a different quality young winger).
The fact that you would put Martinez with Voynov....
They have basically identical stats.
Code:
GP G A Pts Pts/gm +/- PIM PIM/gm
Voynov 46gp 6g 11a 17pts .37 0 30 .65
Martinez 61gp 8g 14a 22pts .36 +6 42 .69
The only difference is that Voinov is 2.5 years younger, so he has more time to improve. But both are still very young (21 and 19). If Martinez is better next season, he gets the nod if there's an opening, I think.
guess what? Today was yet ANOTHER big game.. Crosby did his part, malkin too, even tyler "man-bear-pig" kennedy...
today, what did staal do? Big game... everyone got on the ice.. where did you notice him making a difference?
Staal's probably been better than Malkin over the previous few games, this last one notwithstanding. Not coincidentally, they occurred when he had a legit top 6 winger on his line.
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Originally Posted by andora
the reason pittsburgh has to be careful IMO, is that by trading staal, you are addressing a need (solid winger) yet opening another one (solid two way third line center)
so really, do you keep it at one need and wait to see your options in the summer, or address a need while opening up another...
i'd rather the patient approach, see how kennedy keeps developing, see who's availabe in the free agent market, see who's available for trade, and see how your cheap kids do when given the opportunity (whether late this year, or in training camp next year)
no need for a panic button yet... panic or forced moves are dangerous to flirt with
It's not rushing. Teubert and Hickey at the start of the 2011-12 season will most likely be very ready for the NHL. Seniority only goes so far. You don't keep players as talented and promising as Hickey and Teubert in the AHL all because of seniority. If the Kings GM infact operates like that, he will have many a front office people and talent evaluators telling him that he's running his ship like an *******.
I could also be wrong, but I do believe that Teubert was said to be one of the closest to NHL ready defensemen in his respective draft. There's not much of a project there. The guy has a meager offensive game with a downright nasty defensive game.
In all honesty, I won't be shocked if one or both will be on the NHL roster at sometime next season.
Hickey would have made the team this year if it weren't for Doughty being Doughty. Hickey will be a King at the beginning of 09/10. Teubert may or may not be called up. He's still very raw, and his mental game is nowhere near ready for the NHL just yet. Too much of a loose cannon.
Jordan Staal is not anything to rave home about either, certainly not 2nd overall material if you ask me, what is he? 40 point player? 50 point player? Yea, 2nd overall my ass, the Pens are lucky Crosby and Malkin turned out to be stars because Staal at number 2 is a laughing stock.
L.A Kings have a great number of promising defenders, and generally a great number of very interesting young players. We'll see when they have a playoff team. No dissing, just saying.
And considering that Staal has accomplished much more than Jack Johnson, I would certainly not do this switch one for one. Perhaps the most skiilllzzzz loving fan boys out there are unable to fathom that it has consequences to the role you're assigned and the duties you're expect to focus on when you're a third line center at Pittsburgh Penguins. Staal should put up points, yes, but getting very little game by game playmaking responsibility, or scoring line caliber linemates, we cannot expect him to torch other teams.
He'll likely get 20+ goals and 45 points this year still, to go with solid D and PK'ing. Hopefully continuing his fine playoff performances for a third year running. When your role is decidedly a defensive one and your path to a scoring line role is blocked by the best two centers in the game.... and you're 20 years old, well.... most of us take that and smile.
Doesn't mean Shero couldn't find any reasons to trading Jordan Staal in the off season, but he has done much more to meet expectations so far, and done more to make his team successfull, than Jack MF Johnson. LA would have to add, and Johnson would have to come signed at an appetizing cap hit.
I understand why Kings fans will want to hang on to Johnson, fair enough. There's lots of unrealized upside there, and your other youngsters aren't really ready to carry the team save for Doughty. Johnson at least should be. But he hasn't done enough to merit the return of Staal, and we would lose that deal as regards the value of assets changing.
Jordan Staal is not anything to rave home about either, certainly not 2nd overall material if you ask me, what is he? 40 point player? 50 point player? Yea, 2nd overall my ass, the Pens are lucky Crosby and Malkin turned out to be stars because Staal at number 2 is a laughing stock.
He was a 40 point player at 18.
He's 20 and on pace for 44 points. He's a brilliant defensive player. His offensive game is still developing. He was the right pick at #2 and I'd take him there again. How quickly people forget that he's been absolutely brilliant in the playoffs, when players of his ilk matter the most. He's a bigger, much younger, much more skilled version of Sami Pahlsson. If you don't understand the value that this type of player has, you don't understand how to construct a winning hockey team.
Jordan Staal is not anything to rave home about either, certainly not 2nd overall material if you ask me, what is he? 40 point player? 50 point player? Yea, 2nd overall my ass, the Pens are lucky Crosby and Malkin turned out to be stars because Staal at number 2 is a laughing stock.
I think Staal is overrated too, but every time I watch JJ I think he's got 10 dollar skill and 2 cents for a brain... ala Brad Stuart. Too aggressive - always looking to be physical. Also, he still isn't very effective in board battles and he's terrible at neutralizing opponent forwards in the slot area. But wow he can pass and shoot! Doughty is all kinds of awesome. JJ is not.
Some fans will point to JJ's -15 and blame Gauthier, but JJ is a drag on everybody:
He's 20 and on pace for 44 points. He's a brilliant defensive player. His offensive game is still developing. He was the right pick at #2 and I'd take him there again. How quickly people forget that he's been absolutely brilliant in the playoffs, when players of his ilk matter the most. He's a bigger, much younger, much more skilled version of Sami Pahlsson. If you don't understand the value that this type of player has, you don't understand how to construct a winning hockey team.
I never said Staal was a bad player, very good player indeed, and you're right, he's similar to a Sami Pahlsson, but Pahlssons don't get drafted 2nd overall, at least not head of the 4 other guys taken behind him.
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I think Staal is overrated too, but every time I watch JJ I think he's got 10 dollar skill and 2 cents for a brain... ala Brad Stuart. Too aggressive - always looking to be physical. Also, he still isn't very effective in board battles and he's terrible at neutralizing opponent forwards in the slot area. But wow he can pass and shoot! Doughty is all kinds of awesome. JJ is not.
Some fans will point to JJ's -15 and blame Gauthier, but JJ is a drag on everybody:
If JJ was developed like Phanuef (bottom-pairing / sheltered minutes on a winning team) maybe he could develop into a good D-man.
In the end, I pick the smarter player (Staal) over the one likely to be shuttled around the league over the next 10 years.
I'm not comparing him to JJ, I'm just saying that Staal at number two when you have the likes of Toews and Backstrom is seriously as stupid as it gets, but then again the Pens had Crosby and Malkin, the smart thing was to flip the 2nd overall for a top d-man (Like Bouwmeester for example)
