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Old
03-08-2009, 12:18 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'll always respect Koivu and always have, but I seriously hope this report is false, team needs to go in a different direction next year and shed some of it's 'old' skin...

Koivu's decline has been rapid the last few years
Declining when aging is a normal thing.

It happened to Henri Richard and to Yvan Cournoyer and to Bob Gainey.

So what?

Koivu has been a loyal and hardworking player and a long-time captain. Unless someone offers an unbelievable value in a trade to get him from us, he should retire in Montreal.

I'm all for getting more and better players, but if you want people to respect the sweater you give them, you have to respect their wearing the sweater with sweat.

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03-08-2009, 12:27 AM
  #27
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i like koivu but it is time to make some changes, besides the high for last season this team is a 7 or 8 seed at best every year i can think of a good example Markus Naslund

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03-08-2009, 12:29 AM
  #28
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oh... so you are comfortable with a center depth of

Plekanec
Lapierre
Chipchura
Metropolit

cup contender FORSHURE
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Originally Posted by boalboys View Post
i like koivu but it is time to make some changes, besides the high for last season this team is a 7 or 8 seed at best every year i can think of a good example Markus Naslund
nuff said

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03-08-2009, 12:35 AM
  #29
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i hope this is true, can't picture saku in any other colors

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03-08-2009, 12:37 AM
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I can see Koivu signing for less money and taking on a lesser role. I hope he stays. I know usually in the business of sports there usually isn't loyalty from both the players and management, but I think Koivu deserves to stay with us. Sure we haven't won a cup with him, but its not like its directly his fault. He's a good leader and is respected around the league. It would be foolish to not sign him for another year or two.

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03-08-2009, 12:45 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
244 year old Koivu scores his 12th of the year .
I dunno, I can see us having trouble against the expansion Mars Rovers.

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03-08-2009, 12:45 AM
  #32
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until this team gets some bigger and better talent we are always going to be where we are at, are you not tired of the same results year after year i know i am.It is not koivu fault its just time to change i truly believe.

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03-08-2009, 12:53 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'll always respect Koivu and always have, but I seriously hope this report is false, team needs to go in a different direction next year and shed some of it's 'old' skin...

Koivu's decline has been rapid the last few years
I kind of agree despite being a fan of Koivu. The team definitely needs to go in a different direction and that direction is bringing in guys that wear their jersey's with pride and will do anything to make the team win. This team needs more younger versions of Koivu. Guys that are a pain in the ass to play against, leave it all on the ice.

The new direction starts by getting rid of these soft, perimeter one dimensional players that fills this roster along with the creampuffs on defense.

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:53 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
oh... so you are comfortable with a center depth of

Plekanec
Lapierre
Chipchura
Metropolit

cup contender FORSHURE
Did I say that?

Obviously, I'd like for Gainey to acquire either via trade or UFA another center with size who could play in an offensive role in support of Plekanec, he doesn't have to be a superstar or even better than Plekanec, but he has to offer a different look than Plekanec/Koivu.

I don't know who that center could be, but that's up to Gainey to figure out...ideally, i'd like the following

player x
Plekanec
Lapierre
Metropolit/Chipchura

Gainey can not go another year with Plekanec and Koivu as his top 2 centers. It's one or the other, and to me, the choice is obvious

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03-08-2009, 12:56 AM
  #35
Kirk Muller
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Did I say that?

Obviously, I'd like for Gainey to acquire either via trade or UFA another center with size who could play in an offensive role in support of Plekanec, he doesn't have to be a superstar or even better than Plekanec, but he has to offer a different look than Plekanec/Koivu.

I don't know who that center could be, but that's up to Gainey to figure out...ideally, i'd like the following

player x
Plekanec
Lapierre
Metropolit/Chipchura

Gainey can not go another year with Plekanec and Koivu as his top 2 centers. It's one or the other, and to me, the choice is obvious

You could also look at it that if you get the number 1 center with size than Koivu can slide into the 2nd and 3rd line center role a la Lang this year. Personally I am still not sold on Pleks either sticking around. He exemplifies the type of player that Montreal has too many of as is.

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:59 AM
  #36
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Let's keep Saku until Miko's an UFA

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03-08-2009, 01:02 AM
  #37
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Ok maybe over said with the Sargent, but you know what I mean. Never had anything wrong with a little discipline. If the Captain does not impose some rules among the players then who will. Give the team a Identity. This happen in many places in this real life.
The guys aren't babies. People don't respond to this sort of thing. It's not realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'll always respect Koivu and always have, but I seriously hope this report is false, team needs to go in a different direction next year and shed some of it's 'old' skin...

Koivu's decline has been rapid the last few years
Get rid of Kovalev way before you get rid of Koivu!

Saku Koivu is the only guy from the old "core" worth keeping around. He still plays his ass off every night. We need more players like him, not less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Did I say that?

Obviously, I'd like for Gainey to acquire either via trade or UFA another center with size who could play in an offensive role in support of Plekanec, he doesn't have to be a superstar or even better than Plekanec, but he has to offer a different look than Plekanec/Koivu.

I don't know who that center could be, but that's up to Gainey to figure out...ideally, i'd like the following

player x
Plekanec
Lapierre
Metropolit/Chipchura

Gainey can not go another year with Plekanec and Koivu as his top 2 centers. It's one or the other, and to me, the choice is obvious
Why not bring Koivu back in a 3rd line role? I agree that we need new blood at centre, but I don't see why Koivu has to be #1 centre.

Personally I'd try and flip Pleks for another C, and slot Koivu at #2 with a true, bonafide #1 centre on the first line.

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:06 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Declining when aging is a normal thing.

It happened to Henri Richard and to Yvan Cournoyer and to Bob Gainey.

So what?

Koivu has been a loyal and hardworking player and a long-time captain. Unless someone offers an unbelievable value in a trade to get him from us, he should retire in Montreal.

I'm all for getting more and better players, but if you want people to respect the sweater you give them, you have to respect their wearing the sweater with sweat.
Yes, I agree, it is a normal thing.

But does that mean the team has to commit 8-12M over the next 2-3 years because Koivu was loyal?

I don't know if anyone is paying attention, but he is the captain of a team that's in complete shambles right now, there are issues on AND off the ice and I haven't heard or read him stand up once for his teamates or the organization.

I'm not trying to question his leadership, although I think he's overrated as both a player and a leader, throughout the years he's been an example of hardwork and dedication...but the last 2 years especially, you're seeing an old and broken down player who is having alot of trouble playing the minutes necessary for him to be an effective player. He's not the skater he used to be, he's never been a big scorer but he's essentially a non-threat with the puck on his stick right now and his playmaking instinct is a step behind...and that was one of his greatest strengths.

I think alot of people are choosing to ignore that Koivu is in rapid decline and think that just rewarding him with another contract because he's Koivu, is 'the right thing to do'...i'm sorry, I don't prescribe to that theory, I think the 'right thing to do' is for this team to upgrade it's size and talent down the middle, especially amongst the top 2 centers.

Please note, I still thin Koivu is a good player and can still contribute, but the Habs need more than that at this point and I don't think Koivu can give them what they need at this point in his career. I think what may be best for Koivu is to finish out his career on a more veteran laden team where he could play a specific role and not inhibit the growth of another player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
The guys aren't babies. People don't respond to this sort of thing. It's not realistic.



Get rid of Kovalev way before you get rid of Koivu!

Saku Koivu is the only guy from the old "core" worth keeping around. He still plays his ass off every night. We need more players like him, not less.



Why not bring Koivu back in a 3rd line role? I agree that we need new blood at centre, but I don't see why Koivu has to be #1 centre.

Personally I'd try and flip Pleks for another C, and slot Koivu at #2 with a true, bonafide #1 centre on the first line.
Because the team has to turn over a new leaf, new blood, new direction...i'll give you an example.

Last night, everyone complained (including i) about Metro on the 5 on 3 PP...but I think another issue was the fact that Koivu was taking the draw while one of our only 'hot' players in Plekanec was on the bench. BOTH Koivu and Kovalev were on that 5 on 3 when truly, based on this season's performance, a few players on the bench were more deserving.

You say Koivu plays his ass off every night? This team has struggled with a lack of effort for the better part of the last two months, as a leader on the team, he's not without blame. Brunet showed a good example of Koivu slacking behind on the play during a turnover, I was quite shocked to see him coasting back in the defensive zone 'Kovalev' style...and it's not the first time that happens either.

I don't know why you'd get rid of Plekanec before Koivu when Plekanec is a better player at this point and not to mention more affordable and I haven't even begun addressing the durability issue between both players...

I'd rather the team either acquire a true bonafide #1 center and slot Plekanec in at #2, Lapierre's developping nicely into a #3 center and have Metro/Chip split duties for the 4th line.

Even if Gainey can't get that bonafide #1 center, he could find a #2 with more size/aggression and have the same type of situation they currently have with Plekanec/Koivu


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 03-08-2009 at 03:11 AM.
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Old
03-08-2009, 01:21 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Yes, I agree, it is a normal thing.

But does that mean the team has to commit 8-12M over the next 2-3 years because Koivu was loyal?

I don't know if anyone is paying attention, but he is the captain of a team that's in complete shambles right now, there are issues on AND off the ice and I haven't heard or read him stand up once for his teamates or the organization.

I'm not trying to question his leadership, although I think he's overrated as both a player and a leader, throughout the years he's been an example of hardwork and dedication...but the last 2 years especially, you're seeing an old and broken down player who is having alot of trouble playing the minutes necessary for him to be an effective player. He's not the skater he used to be, he's never been a big scorer but he's essentially a non-threat with the puck on his stick right now and his playmaking instinct is a step behind...and that was one of his greatest strengths.

I think alot of people are choosing to ignore that Koivu is in rapid decline and think that just rewarding him with another contract because he's Koivu, is 'the right thing to do'...i'm sorry, I don't prescribe to that theory, I think the 'right thing to do' is for this team to upgrade it's size and talent down the middle, especially amongst the top 2 centers.

Please note, I still thin Koivu is a good player and can still contribute, but the Habs need more than that at this point and I don't think Koivu can give them what they need at this point in his career. I think what may be best for Koivu is to finish out his career on a more veteran laden team where he could play a specific role and not inhibit the growth of another player.
Koivu is worth every dime of that. He'll be in Montreal his entire career, with the possibility to become one of the top 5 Hab scorers of all time - a status that will get him a retired number and legend status.

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:36 AM
  #40
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Exactly, and Koivu just isnt that type of guy. He's more a lead by example on the ice type. U want a big mouth in the room, then u have to get a Gerome Inginla style guy, and last i checked, he's the only one in the league like that.
An HFBoards best. I get a kick out of the spellings people come up with.

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03-08-2009, 01:43 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Because the team has to turn over a new leaf, new blood, new direction...i'll give you an example.

Last night, everyone complained (including i) about Metro on the 5 on 3 PP...but I think another issue was the fact that Koivu was taking the draw while one of our only 'hot' players in Plekanec was on the bench. BOTH Koivu and Kovalev were on that 5 on 3 when truly, based on this season's performance, a few players on the bench were more deserving.

You say Koivu plays his ass off every night? This team has struggled with a lack of effort for the better part of the last two months, as a leader on the team, he's not without blame. Brunet showed a good example of Koivu slacking behind on the play during a turnover, I was quite shocked to see him coasting back in the defensive zone 'Kovalev' style...and it's not the first time that happens either.

I don't know why you'd get rid of Plekanec before Koivu when Plekanec is a better player at this point and not to mention more affordable and I haven't even begun addressing the durability issue between both players...

I'd rather the team either acquire a true bonafide #1 center and slot Plekanec in at #2, Lapierre's developping nicely into a #3 center and have Metro/Chip split duties for the 4th line.

Even if Gainey can't get that bonafide #1 center, he could find a #2 with more size/aggression and have the same type of situation they currently have with Plekanec/Koivu
That is more of a coaching issue though. Koivu was on the ice because Carbo put him there. Look, I'm saying Koivu would be back as a complementary player. Not a guy who's relied on in every situation, like he is now.

And I'm sorry, but if you are using one or two isolated examples of Koivu "slacking" then I don't know what to tell you. I know you watch the games...The guy is constantly busting his ass, moreso than anyone on the team aside from Kostopoulos, maybe. The guy is not a floater, at all, and that is quite clear, despite what Brunet might say.

I would get rid of Plekanec because he's soft as butter and is streaky as hell. He disappears for a long time and doesn't far well when the game gets physical. Also, he has a lot more value in a trade. I didn't say dump him, I said trade him for another centre.

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03-08-2009, 01:45 AM
  #42
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Koivu is worth every dime of that. He'll be in Montreal his entire career, with the possibility to become one of the top 5 Hab scorers of all time - a status that will get him a retired number and legend status.
Are you more interested in his legacy as a Hab? Or his actual performance on the ice?

There comes a time where you have to make tough decisions, especially with a salary cap, I'm a niners fan and they cut ties with Jerry Rice when he could still play at a decent level, it sucked but it also was the right thing to do, it enabled other playmakers on the team (Owens) to step up...

Sorry for the football analogy...but the point is, on the ice, his performance doesn't warrant him making top 6 money, not if Gainey can upgrade, if not in ability, then in terms of style/size.

Both Koivu and Plekanec offer too much of the same, except IMO, I think Plekanec is better...that's my evaluation.

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03-08-2009, 01:54 AM
  #43
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I wouldn't mind bringing koivu back. I'm looking at the UFA market for centres (and our lack of success of bringing in players off the market), and I'm looking at our current depth at centre as an organization and I cant see how this team can let koivu go without taking a step back.

I think he's still a decent #2 centre option in this league and he's also one of the few current habs with a strong, consistent work ethic that has the ability to compete for the puck and do something positive with it.

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03-08-2009, 01:54 AM
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That is more of a coaching issue though. Koivu was on the ice because Carbo put him there. Look, I'm saying Koivu would be back as a complementary player. Not a guy who's relied on in every situation, like he is now.

And I'm sorry, but if you are using one or two isolated examples of Koivu "slacking" then I don't know what to tell you. I know you watch the games...The guy is constantly busting his ass, moreso than anyone on the team aside from Kostopoulos, maybe. The guy is not a floater, at all, and that is quite clear, despite what Brunet might say.

I would get rid of Plekanec because he's soft as butter and is streaky as hell. He disappears for a long time and doesn't far well when the game gets physical. Also, he has a lot more value in a trade. I didn't say dump him, I said trade him for another centre.
But if Koivu is back as you say a complementary player, will he really be a complementary player? Or still a player that comes out to take the faceoff on a 5 on 3 because he's 'Koivu'?

As for Koivu slacking, I didn't say that...i'm just saying, he's not innocent in this debacle either. I took two recent examples but they're are several examples dating back to last years many lazy hooking calls in the offensive zone that I could bring up as well.

There's a power struggle on the team right now...I know the younger players have taken alot of slack lately, but IMO, I don't think some of the veteran players have pulled their weight this year either.

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03-08-2009, 05:23 AM
  #45
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Koivu gets overrated a lot around here.

He gets praised for his work on the pk, yet a lot of times when he's made a great play to intercept or steal the puck and you hear the commentators saying TRES BEAU JEU DE KOIVU, he follows it up by not being able to clear it because his attempts are too weak.

He has no shot, cant skate anymore, often times on the pp he'll try to make something happen, like a spin move or whatever but then he'll make a pass that hits a skate or he'll lose the puck and kill all the momentum. On those situations, he will look like he's busting his ass off, and I think he is, but what good does hard work do if you cant make the good plays?

Kovalev gets bashed consistently, but honestly he plays much better on the pp and most of the time when he has the puck he's a lot more dangerous then Koivu. Plekanec is soft, but hes more skilled then Koivu and much faster and younger.

Bottom line is, Get a good number 1 center in the summer, and keep Koivu at a discount (no more then 3 million$) as the 3rd line center.

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03-08-2009, 05:54 AM
  #46
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Obviously, I'd like for Gainey to acquire either via trade or UFA another center with size who could play in an offensive role in support of Plekanec, he doesn't have to be a superstar or even better than Plekanec, but he has to offer a different look than Plekanec/Koivu.

I don't know who that center could be, but that's up to Gainey to figure out...ideally, i'd like the following

player x
Plekanec
Lapierre
Metropolit/Chipchura

Gainey can not go another year with Plekanec and Koivu as his top 2 centers. It's one or the other, and to me, the choice is obvious

Gainey already found the fellow you were looking for. He just has to RE-SIGN him now. His name is Robert Lang. Different look, maybe not a superstar but can support Plekanec.

Keeping all three of those centremen means that when Plekanec is cold, Koivu can get a time with the top scoring wingers, and when Plekanec finds his game again, Koivu can become the luxury 3rd line centreman Cup winners often have.

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03-08-2009, 06:04 AM
  #47
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I kind of agree despite being a fan of Koivu. The team definitely needs to go in a different direction and that direction is bringing in guys that wear their jersey's with pride and will do anything to make the team win. This team needs more younger versions of Koivu. Guys that are a pain in the ass to play against, leave it all on the ice.

The new direction starts by getting rid of these soft, perimeter one dimensional players that fills this roster along with the creampuffs on defense.
If you want more Koivu-type players who wear the sweater with pride, then you have to HONOUR those who do. You can't complain that the players have no long-term vision or loyalty if you don't exhibit those qualities as an organization first.

If you want to reduce the number of softer, permineter players on the roster, start by weeding out one or two of the following: Tanguay, S. Kostitsyn, A. Kostitsyn, Plekanec

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03-08-2009, 06:05 AM
  #48
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Not much to talk about, but I found the little note at the bottom of this article interesting:

http://www.radio-canada.ca/sports/ho...st-6mars.shtml

Translated:
"A source assures me that Saku Koivu's next contract is already in a drawer, signed, but that they're waiting until summer to announce it so as to not make waves."

Wouldn't surprise me. And Koivu is one player they have already negotiated with prior to summer...
If true I would say he is signing at a hometown discount allowing Gainey to have money to get key players re-signed and to have UFA money as well.

Koivu at this time in his career is still a good centre, but it is in a supporting 2nd line or even 3rd line role dependant on whom the Habs get to play in front of him.

He is a warrior and should be a career Hab.

If they say it would make waves I'm sure it is in a negative sense to the NHLPA for signing for lower dollars and potentially driving down UFA contract offers to players. Mark Recchi was a whipping boy by the NHLPA a few years ago when he signed a low offer in Philly because he wanted to stay and didn't care about the dollars. Could be the same type of situation, which in my opinion is one Koivu knows he may get more money elsewhere, but it would be on a lousey team. Any other team out there offering him a contract would be looking at him filling the 2nd-3rd line centre and at the same money Montreal probably offered so why not stay home?

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03-08-2009, 06:42 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
If you want more Koivu-type players who wear the sweater with pride, then you have to HONOUR those who do. You can't complain that the players have no long-term vision or loyalty if you don't exhibit those qualities as an organization first.

If you want to reduce the number of softer, permineter players on the roster, start by weeding out one or two of the following: Tanguay, S. Kostitsyn, A. Kostitsyn, Plekanec
i couldnt agree with your posts in this thread more.. i agree fully with everything you've said here.. to get loyalty.. show it.

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03-08-2009, 08:33 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
oh... so you are comfortable with a center depth of

Plekanec
Lapierre
Chipchura
Metropolit

cup contender FORSHURE
You forgot Lecavalier, oh wait ..


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