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Old
03-08-2009, 11:48 AM
  #1
Chazz
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Montreal Canadiens - 2004-2006 Drafts

I here all this talk about the Canadiens having great amateur scouts (Timmons for one). This is NOT a bash thread on anyone, just found it intersting while looking through the 2004-2006 drafts.

Mods if you want to merge with another thread, that is fine.

2004

Kyle Chipchura taken 18th overall ahead of Mike Green, Travis Zajac, Wojtek Wolski, Andrej Meszaros, David Booth, and David Krejci

Rest of the players taken that draft by Montreal:

Alexei Yemelin
JT Wyman
Mikhail Grabovski gave up on
Loic Lacasse
Jon Gleed
Greg Stewart
Mart Streit gave up on
Alexandre Dulac Lemelin


2005

Carey Price taken 5th overall ahead of Marc Staal, Anze Kopitar, Marc Edouard Vlasic, Andrew Cogliano, Matt Niskanen, Paul Stastney

good pick imo

Rest of the players taken that draft by Montreal:

Guillaume Latendresse taken ahead of Mason Raymond, Kristopher Letang
Juraj Mikus taken ahead of Darren Helm
Mathieu Aubin
Matt Dagostini
Sergei Kostitsyn
Phillie Paquet

2006


David Fisher taken 20th overall ahead of Nick Foligno, Claude Giroux, Semen Varlamov, Patrick Berglund, Milan Lucic


Rest of the players taken that draft by Montreal:

Ben Maxwell taken ahead of Milan Lucic
Mathieu Carle
Ryan White
Pavel valentenko
Cameron Cepek



how would you rate this 3 year scouting plan ?

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03-08-2009, 11:59 AM
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Magic33
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Ya, the habs made some wrong picks. But if you did this for every single team in the NHL, you would find the same thing. The draft is pretty much a crapshoot, except for maybe the top 5.

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03-08-2009, 12:01 PM
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CaptKirk
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timmins isn't a psychic?

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:03 PM
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Only pick that irks me is Chipchura over Mike Green and Fischer over Patrik Berglund.

Not that I don't think Fischer or Chipchura won't be players for this team. Just both Berglund and Green are making big impressions this season and if we had both of them right now.. well Berglund would be playing wing on the fourth line with Metro and Dandy and Mike Green would be backing up Halak. But the potential would be there!

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:05 PM
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Gary320
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Pretty much you don't know what to expect.
In my opinion, if we drafted Lucic, I don't think he'd be the player we see in Boston.

Maybe that means we develop badly? I don't know.. but like said.. I don't think you can say we made the wrong choices.

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:09 PM
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Well..wait for 4-5 years.

As for the 04 draft, we fail but many teams passed on Green or Krejci.

As for the 05 draft, I'm very optimist. Latendresse will be a good power forward at the age of 26-27.

As for 06 draft, White and Valentenko will play in the NHL. Carle and Maxwell too. I expect Maxwell to be a 2nd line center when he bulks it up.

For sure there were guys liek Lucic, Stastny and all...but I prefer to have Carey Price.

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:15 PM
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Rgolt
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well go tell the old gm of the sens that they tanked the season to draft an actor(daigle)

and DO NOT say we gave up on streit we just cudnt pay him 5 mill per season

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:21 PM
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badfish
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Hindsight is always 20/20.

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:37 PM
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MXD
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...I'd really, really like to know what makes Mason Raymond and Kris Letang a much better pick than Guillaume Latendresse.

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:43 PM
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Rise from the Ashes
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Patience is a virtue. Ben Maxwell and Fish will be solid players. Especially when then bulk up. Chippy is a solid character who is important for helping younger players in the organization.

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:50 PM
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C-Saku Koivu MTL
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The two I'm dissapointed in is Kostitsyn over Getzlaf or Carter. Getzlaf dropped in the draft for some reason as he was suppose to go higher and Carter wasn't suppose to go that high (was ranked more in the 20's). i really like Andrei just thought Getzlaf was a great pick for us. Kostitsyn still turn out to be good so we can't complain that much.

And Fischer over Berglund or Giroux (or even Sanguinetti if we really wanted a D). I liked Fischer and still do just think passing over Berglund or Giroux is something we should'nt have done.

Another that I was'nt happy at and I think most were is the Urquhart pick. Not saying Bergeron or Weber would have been my pick (thats way to easy to say) it's just the Urquhart pick that was terrible. I would'nt have been dissapointed in Hennesy for example even if he did'nt become very good either, just that I wasn't a fan of Urquhart at all.

What makes is hard for Timmins is that he isn't allowed to make a mistake. We aren't able to attrack UFA here to fill some holes that we might have and making trades (even if Gainey gets bash alot for) isn't that easy at all, more so with the cap in place. Most teams get to sign UFA to fill some holes but it is a big problem for us unless we overpay even more than most teams but then we get in cap trouble then. Not a perfect world lol.

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:51 PM
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Max et Guillaume
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
...I'd really, really like to know what makes Mason Raymond and Kris Letang a much better pick than Guillaume Latendresse.
Well because he is fat, out of shape and hasn't scored 40 goals in a season yet... yes, even though it is normal for power forwards to take a bit more time to develop, usually around 24-25, and Guy is still only 21, the fact that he hasn't won the Maurice Richard trophy yet proves he's a bust...

mark my words, Tender will be a solid 2nd line winger and 25-30 goal scorer for a very long time in this league... unfortunately too many people here think if by 22 you haven't peaked, you're a bust... Tender, OUT! Sergei, OUT! Price, OUT! O'Byrne, OUT! Good thing Bog is the one running the show

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:52 PM
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GoodKiwi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sakukoivu2003 View Post
Well..wait for 4-5 years.

As for the 04 draft, we fail but many teams passed on Green or Krejci.

As for the 05 draft, I'm very optimist. Latendresse will be a good power forward at the age of 26-27.

As for 06 draft, White and Valentenko will play in the NHL. Carle and Maxwell too. I expect Maxwell to be a 2nd line center when he bulks it up.

For sure there were guys liek Lucic, Stastny and all...but I prefer to have Carey Price.
Where did you fall from? Your comments today are too amusing not to laugh at!

For example, just because you *think* Lats will be a good forward at 26-27, we should spend 8 years waiting for him to reach that potential. Yeah, I'm sure everything will pay off in 20014!

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Old
03-08-2009, 01:54 PM
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Rgolt
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Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
Where did you fall from? Your comments today are too amusing not to laugh at!

For example, just because you *think* Lats will be a good forward at 26-27, we should spend 8 years waiting for him to reach that potential. Yeah, I'm sure everything will pay off in 20014!
oh boy i really hope it doesnt take that long

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03-08-2009, 01:55 PM
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MathMan
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Well, there's absolutely no way anyone can reasonably argue over that 2005 draft. Coming out with 4 NHLers a mere 4 years later is quite the haul.

Seriously, evaluating picks shouldn't enitrely be over which "better" players were passed over... one should also consider which "worse" players were passed over, to be fair. Drafting is an exceedingly inexact science and even "sure things" sometimes don't even make the NHL.

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03-08-2009, 01:55 PM
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GoodKiwi
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oh boy i really hope it doesnt take that long
But that's a part of Gainey's 18,000 year plan, no?

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03-08-2009, 01:57 PM
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Rgolt
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But that's a part of Gainey's 18,000 year plan, no?
sorry forgot about that

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:02 PM
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Max et Guillaume
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Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
For example, just because you *think* Lats will be a good forward at 26-27, we should spend 8 years waiting for him to reach that potential. Yeah, I'm sure everything will pay off in 20014!
Vinny scored 30 goals in his 5th full season. He was a ppg player for the first time in his 8th season. In his 4th season, he recorded a terrible 37 pts, after having 51 the season before...

So I'm just curious, how many people in Montreal would've given up on him?

PS I'm in NO WAY comparing Lats and Vinny, I'm just saying that most players peak at 26-27, it's common knowledge.

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:19 PM
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MXD
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Originally Posted by Road for the 25th View Post
Vinny scored 30 goals in his 5th full season. He was a ppg player for the first time in his 8th season. In his 4th season, he recorded a terrible 37 pts, after having 51 the season before...

So I'm just curious, how many people in Montreal would've given up on him?

PS I'm in NO WAY comparing Lats and Vinny, I'm just saying that most players peak at 26-27, it's common knowledge.
...And it's even more common with big guys.

If Lats keeps up with what he did when he played with Lapierre, we'll have a very, very good big winger for a very, very long time.

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:21 PM
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RoyBoyCoy
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timmins isn't a psychic?
This. Besides Price is going to be better than those people. Also he was picked after Benoit Pouliot, could've been worse

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:28 PM
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montreal
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I here all this talk about the Canadiens having great amateur scouts (Timmons for one). how would you rate this 3 year scouting plan ?
You leave out what is looking to be the bread and butter of Timmins draft record with the Habs, the '07 draft which is already paying dividends with Pacioretty with Subban looking to have great upside and McDonagh appears to be a lock to be in the NHL at some point. Add in Weber and you have some very interesting and skilled prospects, with some later round guys like Joe Stejskal, Nichlas Torp and Andrew Conboy that could all see time in the NHL down the road if their progression continues like it has.

The '04 draft, is looking like a weaker draft for Timmins, Chipchura is looking very good at the AHL level, but hasn't been able to convert that success at the NHL level so far. If he can be the type of player he's shown to be in the AHL, then he should end up a very solid bottom line nhler imo. There's a lot of bashing of him, and the bust word is thrown around but I heard the same things about A.Kostitsyn when he spent 3 years in Hamilton and hadn't been able to secure a roster spot as he was sent down and Latendresse stayed up. While Kostitsyn went on to dominate the AHL, and Chipchura will likely never come close to the nature offensive skills that would have him dominate, he just does all the little things so well that he's easy not to notice. He has his work cut out for him if he's going to stick in the NHL next year, but hopefully for the Habs he can get there.

Also take into context that in '04, the Habs went into the draft having picked a high risk high reward type in Kostitsyn, so it is logical that the scouts would go in a different direction and pick someone safer in '04, which they did.

In addition the Habs got very good service out of Streit as a 9th rounder, Grabovski while in the headlines for the wrong reasons with the Habs, did turn into Lang who was likely our best forward this year before the injury. Greg Stewart is showing he looks to be a solid 4th liner that brings speed, energy, grit and toughness. So that's 4 players that have appeared in games for the Habs from the draft, and there's still Alexei Emelin, J T Wyman and Loic Lacasse. Emelin if he comes over could be good find for the Habs, Wyman the jury is still out on his future but he's got some interesting tools and might be useful on denfense down the road. Lacasse surprised me with his play but next year he should get a chance to show what he can do at the AHL level I'm guessing.

'05 is looking great. Price should be a very good goalie in the future, there's going to be growing pains with him for a couple years I'd guess, but he looks to be our core player and a possible star in the league in say 4-5 years. Add Latendresse who is likely still a few years away from really showing what he can do imo, while still being a decent forward for us, and then you have D'Agostini who broke out this year so we'll see what he can do over the next couple of years and S.Kostitsyn is highly skilled, so hopefully he gets his act together cause he could end up being one of the better players taken in that draft outside of the 1st round. Paquet and Aubin may never see the NHL, but I wouldn't count out Paquet just yet as he reminds me a bit of O'Byrne in that he's a big boy but skates well and is moblie for his size while playing a good physical game.

'06 i'm not a big fan of, but there are several interesting prospects in Fischer, Maxwell, and White. Maxwell the organization seems to really like and he's had a lot of success in his rookie year, Fischer has some interesting qualities and while he's likely a ways away still, he might turn into something decent for us. White I think he will be an nhler in time, as he brings offense, grit, physical play but he's got to get faster imo.

Overall I don't know how anyone can be upset with the job Timmins has done. Yes there are better picks out there then the ones they made, but when you look at the entire group of picks, his record is impressive imo.

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:29 PM
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Patty Roy
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So we walked away from a 3 year drafting period with:

Carey Price
Mark Streit
Guillaume Latendresse
Sergei Kostitsyn
Matt D'Agostini
Kyle Chipchura
Mikhail Grabovski
Greg Stewart

Alexei Emelin
David Fisher
Ben Maxwell
Mathieu Carle
Ryan White
Pavel Valentenko

How could anyone think this is anything less than spectacular? You can argue that management didnt make the right moves when it comes to guys like Streit and Grabovski, but that's not at all a reflection on the amateur scouting staff.

We're looking at producing as much as 12-14 NHLers during a 3 year period. That is fantastic. Of course we didnt always make the absolute right pick, but we've got alot more hits than misses. I'd wager that at least 90% of the teams in the NHL would take our crop over theirs during that same period.

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:35 PM
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MXD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz View Post
I here all this talk about the Canadiens having great amateur scouts (Timmons for one). This is NOT a bash thread on anyone, just found it intersting while looking through the 2004-2006 drafts.

Mods if you want to merge with another thread, that is fine.

2004

Kyle Chipchura taken 18th overall ahead of Mike Green, Travis Zajac, Wojtek Wolski, Andrej Meszaros, David Booth, and David Krejci




how would you rate this 3 year scouting plan ?
He was also picked after fringe ECHL'er AJ Thelen, fringe AHL'er Al Montoya, NHL tweener Alex Picard (which I think is a worse player than Chipchura at this point), average AHL'er now playing in Europe Lauri Tukonen (could develop, but Chip did more at this point) and ECHL 3rd stringer (!!!!) Marek Schwartz.

It's also arguable that Chipchura did more at pro level than Boris Valabik (6th D-Men on the Trashers? Big deal) and winger Petteri Nokelainen (might get a new start with Anaheim, but Chipper outproduced him while playing on a better team (last year).

That makes 7 players that are worst than Chipchura. Actually, 8th, because Devan Dubnyk didn't play a single NHL game at this point, and he's a goalie, and they might take longer to develop.

So 8 are worst. 8 are better. Which gives 16 players.
Chipchura was picked 17th.

What hurts is that Zajac was picked straight after him.

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Old
03-08-2009, 03:10 PM
  #24
Habs Icing
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The original poster is not being fair in the way he slants his post. You can't take a player like Green and say look we missed him and we missed Zajac and we missed this other player. That doesn't make sense.

I think the fair thing to do is compare all of our picks for those years with all the picks from each team. Only then will you get a feel for how our amateur scouting team stacks up against other scouting teams.

If I remember correctly before Timmons came along our prospects were ranked near the bottom. We had nothing in the minors. Lo & behold Timmons comes along and he fills up almost half of the positions on the big team plus the organization is ranked what 6-7 now. That tells me he's don't a great job.

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Old
03-08-2009, 03:16 PM
  #25
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Anze Kopitar :
06-07 : 20G-41A-61PTS
07-08 : 32G-45A-77PTS
08-09 : 23G-34A-57PTS (65 games)

Time will tell if Timmins did right with Price, but I still think we'd be a better team with Kopitar and resigning Huet.

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