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Glenn Hall

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Old
03-11-2009, 11:36 PM
  #1
Fuzzy Bunny
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Glenn Hall

He deserves a thread to be praised!


MR. GOALIE


- Glenn's National Hockey League debut came due to an injury to Detroit starter Terry Sawchuk, who broke a bone in his instep after taking a shot in practice. To make the game against the Canadiens, Hall was taken from Humboldt to Saskatoon for the flight to Montreal. Hall arrived a few hours before the faceoff - unfortunately, his equipment never made it. He ended up borrowing Lefty Wilson's equipment, including skates which were far too dull for Hall's liking. But Hall was brilliant, stopping 32 shots in a 2-2 tie against Gerry McNeil and the Canadiens.

- Hall played in every game of his first full season with the Red Wings, recording twelve shutouts, and winning the Calder Memorial Trophy as rookie of the year.

- In 1961, Hall backstopped the Black Hawks to their first Stanley Cup Championship since 1938.

- On November 8, 1962, the record streak finally came to an end against the Boston Bruins; Hall had back problems. Denis DeJordy won replaced him during the game. Hall managed to play 502 consecutive complete games, which spanned eight seasons, an NHL record that will probably never be broken. But the striking thing was that this record will never be broken in the sense that he never once wore a goaltending mask or helmet during the streak. It was only late in his career that he did wear a mask

- The Blues lost the best-of-seven series getting swept 4–0, but in 4 exciting 1-goal games (3–2 (OT), 1–0. 4–3 (OT), and 3–2). Hall's remarkable play was recognized by the award to him of the Conn Smythe Trophy as the playoffs' Most Valuable Player, an award rarely going to a player from a losing team.

1975 Elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame
906 Games Played
502 consecutive games played [NHL Record]
407 Wins [8th all-time]
84 Shutouts [4th all-time]
13 NHL All-Star Game Appearances
7 First-Team All-Star Selections [NHL Record]
4* Stanley Cup Appearances
3 Stanley Cup Victories
3-time Vezina Award Winner
1 Calder Trophy
1 Conn Smythe Trophy
#1 Retired by Chicago Blackhawks





I got to visit with him for a short moment as well as sit in at a luncheon where he was a guest speaker and he is the most humble individual I have ever come across.

When speaking on his play, he mentioned he didnt play for himself, but did not want to embarrass his family and friends back home.

I did find out he did receive a Cup ring this past year from the Redwings. Something that I assumed he had, although he had his name on the Cup, trivia folk know he had yet to play an NHL game and was the teams emergency goalie.

He was so impressed with the act of generosity by the Redwings ownership and he mentioned he called up old teammates and they were just estatic with the class act move. It really touched those old players.

"I need sunglasses to look at it." he said about the Ring.

He has been to the NHL Stanley Cup Finals 4 times, with 4 different teams, and won 3 times. (Detroit, Chicago, and Calgary as a coach) and yet, he has a ring for the 1 time he did not have to suit up, even in the losing effort, he got the Vezina!


Hard to consider him better than Terry Sawchuk (The HOH list with Plante, Hasek ahead of these two I cant agree with), but he is the 2nd greatest goalie of all-time to me


Last edited by Fuzzy Bunny: 03-11-2009 at 11:51 PM.
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Old
03-12-2009, 12:56 AM
  #2
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Glenn Hall is the greatest goaltender of all time. Yes, I have him as #1.

He is the ONLY goaltender to be voted the NHL's best 7 times.

Glenn Hall gets a lack of respect by most in my opinion, but I definitely have him as #1.

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03-12-2009, 01:02 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Glenn Hall is the greatest goaltender of all time. Yes, I have him as #1.

He is the ONLY goaltender to be voted the NHL's best 7 times.

Glenn Hall gets a lack of respect by most in my opinion, but I definitely have him as #1.
Not that he doesnt follow great goalies, but for him to be down at #5 for goalies in that Top 100 list...

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03-12-2009, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Talbot Time View Post
Not that he doesnt follow great goalies, but for him to be down at #5 for goalies in that Top 100 list...
I have Glenn Hall at #5 on my list. He was without a doubt as good if not better than anyone in the regular season. The emphasize of playoffs performances that most of ''knowledgeable'' decide to add in their overall ranking (me included) hurt Hall's credential. Hall's overall success in the playoffs is underwhelming, even though I completely agree that the overall team performance over the year is more to blame than a single player.

By the way, I have Jacques Plante, Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall in that order. However, those ARE the sacred 5. Anyone can bring up valid arguments and put any of them at the top. Martin Brodeur, who I have at 6, has in my opinion, a long way to go before ranking in my top-5, or at the very least being part of the top group.

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03-12-2009, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I have Glenn Hall at #5 on my list. He was without a doubt as good if not better than anyone in the regular season. The emphasize of playoffs performances that most of ''knowledgeable'' decide to add in their overall ranking (me included) hurt Hall's credential. Hall's overall success in the playoffs is underwhelming, even though I completely agree that the overall team performance over the year is more to blame than a single player.

By the way, I have Jacques Plante, Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall in that order. However, those ARE the sacred 5. Anyone can bring up valid arguments and put any of them at the top. Martin Brodeur, who I have at 6, has in my opinion, a long way to go before ranking in my top-5, or at the very least being part of the top group.
That was nearly exactly what I was going to say.

Hall is the greatest regular season goaltender of all time.

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03-12-2009, 09:41 AM
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One of the best goalies to ever play the game, I'd still rank Terry Sawchuck, Patrick Roy, Dominik Hasek and Martin Brodeur ahead of him in terms of overall performance, but no top 5-10 all-time goalie list is done without having Glenn Hall's name on it.

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03-12-2009, 10:30 AM
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I've heard Hall would get so nervous before each game that he'd throw up. Is there any truth to this?

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03-12-2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
That was nearly exactly what I was going to say.

Hall is the greatest regular season goaltender of all time.
Hasek is the greatest regular season goaltender of all time in my book. Hall never had a peak as good as Hasek, did he? He was more the reliable goalie who was elite for 15+ years, like Brodeur in the regular season. I take Brodeur decisively over Hall because their regular season resumes are close, but Brodeur's playoff resume is significantly better.

Hall is obviously a no-brainer in the top 8.

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03-12-2009, 02:20 PM
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Hasek is the greatest regular season goaltender of all time in my book. Hall never had a peak as good as Hasek, did he? He was more the reliable goalie who was elite for 15+ years, like Brodeur in the regular season. I take Brodeur decisively over Hall because their regular season resumes are close, but Brodeur's playoff resume is significantly better.

Hall is obviously a no-brainer in the top 8.
In terms of pure peak, Hasek has an edge I agree, but Hall's peak is close regular season, and longevity/consistency in being a 7 time "best goalie in the league", and 4 time Runner up is above and beyond everyone.

I rank Hasek 2nd overall, very close to Roy(Jacques Plante = #1 and I flip flop between Roy/Hasek a lot)

But 4/5 for me is Sawchuk(Best 5 year peak of all goalies with the exception of Hasek, who he is close to) and then Tretiak, with Brodeur right on Tretiak's heels a spot behind.

I know a lot of people around here think Tretiak is overrated, etc, so let me tell you right now I do not want to get into that argument here. I saw what I saw from the man, and I think he was an amazing underrated(In HOH) goalie.

Since Brodeur is so close, its likely he will pass Tretiak in the next few years like Lidstrom passed Potvin last year.

Hall, like you, I have behind Brodeur because of playoffs. While on Detroit, with that Dynasty team of Howe, Lindsay, Kelly, Delvechio, etc, Hall had 2 great regular seasons(Including a 12 shutout season), and then 2 huge flops in the playoffs, 1 to a very weak Boston team in 5 games. It was enough for Detroit to send him packing with Lindsay(Who was sent for different reasons).

While on Chicago, his playoff record is not that bad(He did have a few good runs), but its not what you would expect either. Often losing out to teams they were better than in the regular season, even with Hull, Mikita and Pilote usually often raising their game.

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03-12-2009, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Talbot Time View Post
Not that he doesnt follow great goalies, but for him to be down at #5 for goalies in that Top 100 list...
Why? What's wrong with that? I have Roy, Sawchuk and Hasek for sure ahead of him. By now Brodeur probably is as well and IMO so is Plante. That's #6 for me for Hall

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03-13-2009, 01:27 AM
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Criticizing Glenn Hall's playoff record is foolishness. Glenn Hall is not responsible for the moves of his GM and cannot be faulted for being on poor teams most of his career.

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03-13-2009, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Criticizing Glenn Hall's playoff record is foolishness. Glenn Hall is not responsible for the moves of his GM and cannot be faulted for being on poor teams most of his career.
He took over for Terry Sawchuk on the Red Wings dynasty and crapped the bed so badly two years in a row, that they were forced to bring Sawchuk back.

He then moved on to Chicago, where he played behind Hull, Mikita, and Pilote. Chicago might have lacked the depth of Montreal and Toronto, but they were hardly a bad team.

PS. I love your typical "playoff success is up to the GM" line that you use to avoid having to account for playoff performances in your rankings, when the real reason is that playoff performances aren't as easily quantifiable as regular season performances.


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03-13-2009, 01:39 AM
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He took over for Terry Sawchuk on the Red Wings dynasty and crapped the bed so badly two years in a row, that they were forced to bring Sawchuk back.

.
And your evidence is...? Did Gordie Howe publicly torch Hall as the reason the Red Wings were eliminated?

Let me remind you that goaltending stats are team stats. No goaltender is responsible for his numbers alone. A great example of this would be Ty Conklin this year or Pascal Leclaire from last year.

The ONLY way to evaluate a goaltender is to watch him play. 7 times the eyewitnesses called him the best goaltender in the NHL; that indicates to me that he alone did not cost the Wings two Stanley Cups.

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03-13-2009, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He took over for Terry Sawchuk on the Red Wings dynasty and crapped the bed so badly two years in a row, that they were forced to bring Sawchuk back.
He then moved on to Chicago, where he played behind Hull, Mikita, and Pilote. Chicago might have lacked the depth of Montreal and Toronto, but they were hardly a bad team.

PS. I love your typical "playoff success is up to the GM" line that you use to avoid having to account for playoff performances in your rankings, when the real reason is that playoff performances aren't as easily quantifiable as regular season performances.
I love this part. He crapped the bed? So were talking about the same guy who shut down the Leafs, then lost in 5 games to the Super Habs? Guess what happened when the Wings brought Sawchuck back and played that same Super Habs team in the first round? They got swept.

Granted though, the Boston series was kinda bad, but even those were close games (except the 7-2 whipping they put on Boston).


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 03-13-2009 at 01:59 AM.
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03-13-2009, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Criticizing Glenn Hall's playoff record is foolishness. Glenn Hall is not responsible for the moves of his GM and cannot be faulted for being on poor teams most of his career.
Chicago had a great defensive team, with multiple hall of fame forwards and defensemen and often were one of the best regular season teams, and routinely lost to lower ranked teams, despite Hull, Mikita and Pilote stepping it up many times.

I can criticize his playoff record all I want. I was there to see it and he literally more often than not went down a notch in the post season.

Quote:
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And your evidence is...? Did Gordie Howe publicly torch Hall as the reason the Red Wings were eliminated?
Howe? No. But the Jack Adams publically blamed Hall for an embarrassing loss to Boston(Who were a mediocre team) and decided when he got rid of Union man Lindsay to ship Hall too.

Boston was a team that had missed the playoffs the year before, and Detroit finished well ahead of them in the standings that year. Howe, Lindsay and Delvecchio all scored over a point per game, so they were doing their jobs up front. Red Kelly was still in fine form back then. It was all Hall.


Quote:
The ONLY way to evaluate a goaltender is to watch him play. 7 times the eyewitnesses called him the best goaltender in the NHL; that indicates to me that he alone did not cost the Wings two Stanley Cups.
And I watched him play. He was the best regular season goaltender of all time, but often wet the bed in the playoffs.

I am surprised you are saying "The only way to evaluate is to watch them play". Well, I did watch him and he did not deliver in the postseason.

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03-13-2009, 02:13 AM
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I love this part. He crapped the bed? So were talking about the same guy who shut down the Leafs, then lost in 5 games to the Super Habs? Guess what happened when the Wings brought Sawchuck back and played that same Super Habs team in the first round? They got swept.

Granted though, the Boston series was kinda bad, but even those were close games (except the 7-2 whipping they put on Boston).
I apologize for using unnecessary hyberbole, which is something I've criticized others on here for. I should have said "failed to live up to expectations." And I thought it was well-established around here that Sawchuk was never the same after he left the Wings the first time.

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03-13-2009, 02:34 AM
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I apologize for using unnecessary hyberbole, which is something I've criticized others on here for. I should have said "failed to live up to expectations." And I thought it was well-established around here that Sawchuk was never the same after he left the Wings the first time.
I've often wondered about that. I mean, he played well a few years later behind a slightly under-powered (yet perhaps more balanced) Detroit team in the playoffs (lost to Hall and the Blackhawks, incidentally), and then had another good run to a Cup with the Leafs. One could also say that the Wings were never the same after Hall left the Wings the first time. And I don't blame that on Sawchuk.

I still contend that the situation (on defense and bottom lines) in Detroit that made Hall look (as) bad (as he did) in those last 2 post-seasons is what Sawchuk came back to, and perhaps made both look worse than they were. I haven't seen enough from back then to really back that up, but I've researched the heck out of goalies and how their careers unfolded and something just doesn't fit.

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03-13-2009, 06:31 AM
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Glenn Hall along with Jacques Plante are my favorite old time goalies. I found an old St. Louis magazine from 1968 with an article on Mr. Hall that was really cool. It said he did throw up before every game.

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03-13-2009, 07:45 AM
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By the way, I have Jacques Plante, Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall in that order. However, those ARE the sacred 5. Anyone can bring up valid arguments and put any of them at the top.
Flip Hasek and Roy and that's my top five too.

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03-13-2009, 08:34 AM
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Criticizing Glenn Hall's playoff record is foolishness. Glenn Hall is not responsible for the moves of his GM and cannot be faulted for being on poor teams most of his career.
Chicago certianly wasnt a poor team by any stretch of the imagination. They were a very good team. There are times Hall left you wanting more, he could have been better in '67 for example. He won a Conn Smythe in '68 so he wasnt always a playoff underacheiver but IMO he was several times on Chicago. When you're judging the top goalies of all time you have to go through everything with a fine tooth comb. You've got the big three from the last 20 years (Hasek, Roy, Broudeur) and the three others from the 50s and '60s in Hall, Plante and Sawchuk. That's generally the 6 guys who are in the top 6. But out of all of them it's hard to give anyone a lower playoff rating than Hall. Even Hasek, he was surely no choker in the playoffs. To me that matters as well. For example:

All-star nods:
Hall (11)
Brodeur (7)
Sawchuk (7)
Plante (7)
Hasek (6)
Roy (6)

Hall was named either a first or second all-star 11 times, that's pretty sickening and Brodeur will never catch that.

Cups:
Plante (6)
Sawchuk (4)
Roy (4)
Brodeur (3)
Hasek (2)
Hall (1)

Maybe this doesnt matter to some, but it holds a little bit of water

Playoff record:
Roy 151-94
Plante 71-36
Sawchuk 54-48
Brodeur 95-74
Hasek 65-49
Hall 49-65

That's pretty much the order it goes IMO. Out of the 6 great goalies Hall is clearly the 6th best playoff goalie, I don't know how else to spin it.

But this thread shouldnt be bashing Hall, he's one of the best of all time and being 6th all time IMO is no laughing matter. It's just when you judge him with the best he falls just short

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03-13-2009, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I apologize for using unnecessary hyberbole, which is something I've criticized others on here for. I should have said "failed to live up to expectations." And I thought it was well-established around here that Sawchuk was never the same after he left the Wings the first time.
Well, Sawchuk was given up because he was a raging alcoholic, and Adams saw the future enough to know he had a choice coming.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I've often wondered about that. I mean, he played well a few years later behind a slightly under-powered (yet perhaps more balanced) Detroit team in the playoffs (lost to Hall and the Blackhawks, incidentally), and then had another good run to a Cup with the Leafs. One could also say that the Wings were never the same after Hall left the Wings the first time. And I don't blame that on Sawchuk.
It was not just Hall who left. Their heart and Grit HOF player Ted Lindsay was traded along with Hall, and around that time, Red Kelly's production on defense was also starting to slip due to many factors, a big one being his deteriorating relationship with Wings management.

Quote:
I still contend that the situation (on defense and bottom lines) in Detroit that made Hall look (as) bad (as he did) in those last 2 post-seasons is what Sawchuk came back to, and perhaps made both look worse than they were. I haven't seen enough from back then to really back that up, but I've researched the heck out of goalies and how their careers unfolded and something just doesn't fit.
Again, its just not so. Sawchuk was no longer what he had been specifically because of his alcoholism, and the loss of Lindsay and Red Kelly's decline on defense all had a cumulative effect.

Adams bringing Sawchuk back had been unexpected, but given the circumstances of his bad relationship with Hall, and his desire to bring loyal non-union men into the fold, he ended up bringing him back, despite

Ill recount an old newspaper article after game 5 in Boston:

"I don't mean to criticize", Adams said, preparing to criticize, "But Hall looked bad on Doug Mohns goal and worse on Cal Gardiner's. We should have had a 2 goal lead after the second period"

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Chicago certianly wasnt a poor team by any stretch of the imagination. They were a very good team. There are times Hall left you wanting more, he could have been better in '67 for example. He won a Conn Smythe in '68 so he wasnt always a playoff underacheiver but IMO he was several times on Chicago. When you're judging the top goalies of all time you have to go through everything with a fine tooth comb. You've got the big three from the last 20 years (Hasek, Roy, Broudeur) and the three others from the 50s and '60s in Hall, Plante and Sawchuk. That's generally the 6 guys who are in the top 6. But out of all of them it's hard to give anyone a lower playoff rating than Hall. Even Hasek, he was surely no choker in the playoffs. To me that matters as well. For example:

All-star nods:
Hall (11)
Brodeur (7)
Sawchuk (7)
Plante (7)
Hasek (6)
Roy (6)

Hall was named either a first or second all-star 11 times, that's pretty sickening and Brodeur will never catch that.

Cups:
Plante (6)
Sawchuk (4)
Roy (4)
Brodeur (3)
Hasek (2)
Hall (1)

Maybe this doesnt matter to some, but it holds a little bit of water

Playoff record:
Roy 151-94
Plante 71-36
Sawchuk 54-48
Brodeur 95-74
Hasek 65-49
Hall 49-65

That's pretty much the order it goes IMO. Out of the 6 great goalies Hall is clearly the 6th best playoff goalie, I don't know how else to spin it.

But this thread shouldnt be bashing Hall, he's one of the best of all time and being 6th all time IMO is no laughing matter. It's just when you judge him with the best he falls just short
Great Post

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03-13-2009, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Criticizing Glenn Hall's playoff record is foolishness. Glenn Hall is not responsible for the moves of his GM and cannot be faulted for being on poor teams most of his career.
This is another one of those asinine tenants that I'm convinced you back not because it actually makes any sense, but because it disregards something that can't be quantified in your ranking systems.

There's a difference between playing well and not having team success, and just not playing well. This is should be pretty obvious. This is the history board, nobody is counting cups here.

Do you honestly believe that a player shouldn't be judged on his personal playoff performance? Does that make any sense to you? Do we discount Gretzky's playoff greatness in the 80's because "he's not responsible for the moves of his GM, and can't be given credit for the excellent teams he was on"?

Playoffs are the most important time of the year for a player. And over the course of a career, everyone gets to play. Even if you're saddled with teams that can't make it out of the first round, you can make your mark (Theo Fleury for instance). We don't ask that Marcel Dionne carries the woeful Kings to the Stanley Cup, but we do ask that he plays up to his regular season standard.


Tell us which part of this statement doesn't make sense:

You can be a great playoff performer on a bad team. You can be a poor playoff performer on a good team.


Last edited by arrbez: 03-13-2009 at 11:35 AM.
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03-13-2009, 11:47 AM
  #23
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This is another one of those asinine tenants that I'm convinced you back not because it actually makes any sense, but because it disregards something that can't be quantified in your ranking systems.

There's a difference between playing well and not having team success, and just not playing well. This is should be pretty obvious. This is the history board, nobody is counting cups here.

Do you honestly believe that a player shouldn't be judged on his personal playoff performance? Does that make any sense to you? Do we discount Gretzky's playoff greatness in the 80's because "he's not responsible for the moves of his GM, and can't be given credit for the excellent teams he was on"?

Playoffs are the most important time of the year for a player. And over the course of a career, everyone gets to play. Even if you're saddled with teams that can't make it out of the first round, you can make your mark (Theo Fleury for instance). We don't ask that Marcel Dionne carries the woeful Kings to the Stanley Cup, but we do ask that he plays up to his regular season standard.


Tell us which part of this statement doesn't make sense:

You can be a great playoff performer on a bad team. You can be a poor playoff performer on a good team.
And the fact of the matter is, Chicago had a powerful team who often lost to lesser teams in the first round, and Detroit was a much better team the year they lost to Boston, and Lindsay, Howe, and Delvecchio stepped it up in the playoffs, while goaltending went sour. I don't see how you can "Blame the GM" for that.

Hall does have a few terrific playoff performances to his name. But he has less great performances than flops.

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03-13-2009, 09:46 PM
  #24
pappyline
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Darn it. Hockey outsider did a nice analysis of why the Hawks didn't win more cups in the 60's & I can't locate it, the gist of it was that the Hawk stars performed very well in the playoffs but their secondary players didn't. In other words, they didn't have the depth of the Habs & leafs. In my memory, Hall performed well enough but just couldn't steal one like the Drydens, Bowers & Sawchuks. I bet he was astounding in the 61 semi's against Montreal but alas those games aren't available. I followed the Hawks closely in the 60's & just don't remember Hall winning the big game on his own.

Don't know that much about his Detroit seasons but with the Hawks, He was always there & certainly wasn't a liability.

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03-13-2009, 10:02 PM
  #25
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Jacques Plante is the guy I like

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4310

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