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Glenn Hall

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Old
03-13-2009, 11:56 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Darn it. Hockey outsider did a nice analysis of why the Hawks didn't win more cups in the 60's & I can't locate it, the gist of it was that the Hawk stars performed very well in the playoffs but their secondary players didn't. In other words, they didn't have the depth of the Habs & leafs. In my memory, Hall performed well enough but just couldn't steal one like the Drydens, Bowers & Sawchuks. I bet he was astounding in the 61 semi's against Montreal but alas those games aren't available. I followed the Hawks closely in the 60's & just don't remember Hall winning the big game on his own.

Don't know that much about his Detroit seasons but with the Hawks, He was always there & certainly wasn't a liability.
It's a shame that there doesn't appear to be any footage of the 1961 Montreal/Chicago playoff series. I don't think that Hall ever played better. Keep in mind that the series was tied 2-2 before Hall shut out the Canadiens in game five and six to win the series for the Hawks.

However, it was game three of that series that both Red Fisher and Danny Gallivan called the greatest game they ever saw, in addition to being the greatest exhibition of goaltending either man ever witnessed.

What I wouldn't give to see that game on video.

Red recently wrote about it.

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It's not necessary to remind anyone that the playoffs are the best time of the season, when the most exciting games are played - or should be.

Can anyone forget the night in 1986 when Patrick Roy stopped 13 shots in the first overtime (five by Mark Osborne, three by Tomas Sandstrom and others by Reijo Ruotsalainen, Larry Melnyk, Bob Brooke, Tom Laidlaw and Pierre Larouche) in Game 3 of a conference final against the New York Rangers? There he was at Madison Square Garden, a 20-year-old, lean-as-a-stick rookie, turning aside at least a half-dozen spectacular scoring opportunities - until Claude Lemieux scored the winner at 9:41 with the Canadiens' third shot.

I still remember it as the best playoff overtime performance by one goaltender.

Fast forward now to 1993. The Canadiens lost the first two games in Quebec, the first in overtime. They won the next four, two in overtime. More importantly, Roy and the Canadiens won eight more games in overtime en route to their last Stanley Cup to establish a record for most overtime wins in one season and most consecutive overtime wins.

The 7-5 victory in Boston in 1970-71 after the Canadiens rallied for five goals in the third period is another.

The one I remember most is a triple-overtime (52 minutes and 12 seconds) Stanley Cup semi-final Game 3 in 1961 at Chicago.

This was a Canadiens team seeking its sixth consecutive Stanley Cup, and there was every reason to believe they would get the job done. They had finished the 70-game regular season in first place in the six-team NHL with 92 points, while Chicago was third with 75. After splitting the first two games at the

Forum, here they were in Chicago. Jacques Plante vs. Glenn Hall. Jean Béliveau and Stan Mikita, Bobby Hull and Dickie Moore. Maurice Richard had retired during training camp, but Henri was there.

From the start, the game belonged to Plante and Hall in what was to become the greatest performance I've ever seen by two goaltenders. Breakaways. Scoring chances from the lip of the crease. One-on-one ... two-on-one. Scoring chances in the first period ... all turned back by the goaltenders.

More spectacular stops by Plante and Hall during most of the second period until Murray Balfour, who had played in only five games during two seasons for the Canadiens before being traded to Chicago for cash before the start of the 1959-60 season, finally opened the scoring with fewer than two minutes remaining in the period.

There were scoring chances on both sides in the third period. Plante would save brilliantly. Then, Plante again. Hall. Hall again. Chicago was still clinging to its 1-0 lead with 40 seconds remaining in regulation when Plante was called to the Canadiens bench. The faceoff was in the Chicago end and four seconds later Henri Richard beat Hall for the tying goal (assist by Phil Goyette).

What followed in overtime was a lot more of what had lifted Chicago fans out of their seats time and again during regulation.

Béliveau is in alone early in the first overtime. Shoots wide. Ralph Backstrom sweeps in ... loses the puck. Bill Hay skates in on Plante. The upper corner is open, but Plante deflects it wide with the shaft of his stick. Hall stops Moore. Lucky stops. Mind-numbing stops.

There were more scoring chances by the teams in the second overtime, but Plante and Hall continued to own this game. Once, Don Marshall slapped the puck out of the air and watched it drop behind Hall. No goal, ruled referee Dalton McArthur.

The ruling was that Marshall's stick was above his shoulder when he made contact with the puck. Borderline stuff, but a gutsy call.

Third overtime: Ron Murphy is penalized early ... Béliveau is in alone, but Hall makes yet another of his 53 stops. (Chicago had 45 shots during the game.) Tod Sloan has an open net - and misses. Henri breaks in on Hall. Another big stop. An open net for Claude Provost. Shoots wide.

The clock read 11:44 when Moore was whistled down with a minor penalty. To this day, Moore insists it was a borderline call, but referee McArthur was made of stern stuff. He called 'em the way he saw 'em.

Remember Balfour, who had scored Chicago's first goal? Twenty-eight seconds into the Black Hawks' power play, he beat Plante from a scramble in front of the net. Chicago 2, Montreal 1.

This greatest of all playoff games involving the Canadiens was over - but there was more to come. Lots more.

The ice was littered with debris after Balfour's winner - only Chicago's fourth shot of the game's sixth period. The Canadiens players, who had enjoyed a high when Richard scored the tying goal in regulation and a low when Marshall's apparent winner was disallowed, stormed after McArthur. This time: why the penalty to Moore?

Head coach Blake had other ideas. He shrugged off the restraining hands of several of his players, stepped onto the ice and took off in a slow trot toward the boards on the opposite side, where referee McArthur was talking to the official scorer. The referee still had his back to Blake when the latter threw a punch that struck McArthur on the shoulder.

It was only then that the referee turned, his eyes widening in surprise when he saw Blake. That's also when several of the Canadiens players wrapped their arms around Blake and led him from the ice.

"I thought Toe was coming after me," Moore recently told me with a laugh.

It was a wild finish to a game for the ages. It was also the end of the Canadiens' dynasty, even though they tied the series with a 5-2 victory two nights later.

Hall shut down the Canadiens 3-0 at the Forum in Game 5 and eliminated them by the same score in Chicago. From there, Chicago went on to win its first - and last - Stanley Cup since 1938 in a six-game series with the Detroit Red Wings.

Blake wasn't suspended for his "attack" on McArthur. Instead, the next day he was fined $2,000 by NHL president Clarence Campbell. Big money for a coach who was being paid $18,000 after his team had won five consecutive Stanley Cups, but he was fortunate to avoid a suspension.

Referee McArthur wasn't that lucky. He was fired between seasons.

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Old
03-14-2009, 08:52 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Chicago had a great defensive team, with multiple hall of fame forwards and defensemen and often were one of the best regular season teams, and routinely lost to lower ranked teams, despite Hull, Mikita and Pilote stepping it up many times.

I can criticize his playoff record all I want. I was there to see it and he literally more often than not went down a notch in the post season.


Howe? No. But the Jack Adams publically blamed Hall for an embarrassing loss to Boston(Who were a mediocre team) and decided when he got rid of Union man Lindsay to ship Hall too.

Boston was a team that had missed the playoffs the year before, and Detroit finished well ahead of them in the standings that year. Howe, Lindsay and Delvecchio all scored over a point per game, so they were doing their jobs up front. Red Kelly was still in fine form back then. It was all Hall.



And I watched him play. He was the best regular season goaltender of all time, but often wet the bed in the playoffs.

I am surprised you are saying "The only way to evaluate is to watch them play". Well, I did watch him and he did not deliver in the postseason.
Just wondering, how much of Hall in the playoffs did you see?

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03-14-2009, 09:13 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He took over for Terry Sawchuk on the Red Wings dynasty and crapped the bed so badly two years in a row, that they were forced to bring Sawchuk back.

He then moved on to Chicago, where he played behind Hull, Mikita, and Pilote. Chicago might have lacked the depth of Montreal and Toronto, but they were hardly a bad team.

PS. I love your typical "playoff success is up to the GM" line that you use to avoid having to account for playoff performances in your rankings, when the real reason is that playoff performances aren't as easily quantifiable as regular season performances.
Actually, his rookie year he only allowed 10 goals in 5 games against Toronto in the first round. They lost to Montreal in the finals and Detroit scored 2 goals in their last 3 losses (5-1, 3-0, 3-1) of that series. Considering how good that Montreal team was (45-15-10) its hard to say without seeing the games if Hall really performed badly.

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03-14-2009, 09:19 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
It's a shame that there doesn't appear to be any footage of the 1961 Montreal/Chicago playoff series. I don't think that Hall ever played better. Keep in mind that the series was tied 2-2 before Hall shut out the Canadiens in game five and six to win the series for the Hawks.

However, it was game three of that series that both Red Fisher and Danny Gallivan called the greatest game they ever saw, in addition to being the greatest exhibition of goaltending either man ever witnessed.

What I wouldn't give to see that game on video.

Red recently wrote about it.
Thanks for that quote. I wonder if that game was even televised. I know it wasn't in Ontario. They played both series on the same night in those days & in Ontario we always got the Leafs. Do any old timers out there know if that game was televised in Quebec? In reading Fisher's write-up, It looks to me that Hall should be given the retro CS for that year. It is always given to Pilote but beating the Habs that year was a huge upset & Hall appears to be the key. The win over Detroit in the final was anti-climatic.

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03-14-2009, 02:09 PM
  #30
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According to the breakdown of games on the Hockey Summary Project, the Chicago Blackhawks were outshot with Glenn Hall in net in every single playoff series from 1962 to 1967, even the ones that they won. The stats aren't available, but that streak might even go as far back as 1958 to include every playoff series Hall played in Chicago, depending on whether or not the Hawks outshot the Wings in the 1961 Stanley Cup Final.

That doesn't really suggest that they were dominating lesser opponents, or that their goalie was the one costing them games. Maybe Hall's terrific regular season play made the Hawks look better in the standings than they actually were as a team once the playoffs began?

Compare that with someone like Martin Brodeur, cited in this thread as someone who was a much better playoff goalie than Hall, whose team outshot the opposition in 20 out of his first 22 playoff series. Team factors are really important in evaluating playoff goaltending.

It seems like certain goalies get a disproportionate focus on a few playoff series that they lost, whereas similar performances by others just blend into the background because they have a few Cups to deflect attention. Sure, Glenn Hall lost in the first round in 1957 as a Red Wing. So did Terry Sawchuk in 1953, only Sawchuk was on a better team and played even worse then Hall did against a much worse opponent. I don't think anyone counts that as a major black mark against Sawchuk, so I don't know why that should be considered a defining moment for Hall.

All good goalies who played long enough are going to have some great playoff series and some weak ones, so cherry-picking individual series doesn't make sense. I agree that Glenn Hall's playoff performances overall weren't as strong as his regular season play, and that is a potential reason to drop him a spot or two on the all-time ranking list. However, I do think there were enough good performances in there that Hall was far from a playoff choker.

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03-14-2009, 02:24 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
According to the breakdown of games on the Hockey Summary Project, the Chicago Blackhawks were outshot with Glenn Hall in net in every single playoff series from 1962 to 1967, even the ones that they won. The stats aren't available, but that streak might even go as far back as 1958 to include every playoff series Hall played in Chicago, depending on whether or not the Hawks outshot the Wings in the 1961 Stanley Cup Final.

That doesn't really suggest that they were dominating lesser opponents, or that their goalie was the one costing them games. Maybe Hall's terrific regular season play made the Hawks look better in the standings than they actually were as a team once the playoffs began?

Compare that with someone like Martin Brodeur, cited in this thread as someone who was a much better playoff goalie than Hall, whose team outshot the opposition in 20 out of his first 22 playoff series. Team factors are really important in evaluating playoff goaltending.

It seems like certain goalies get a disproportionate focus on a few playoff series that they lost, whereas similar performances by others just blend into the background because they have a few Cups to deflect attention. Sure, Glenn Hall lost in the first round in 1957 as a Red Wing. So did Terry Sawchuk in 1953, only Sawchuk was on a better team and played even worse then Hall did against a much worse opponent. I don't think anyone counts that as a major black mark against Sawchuk, so I don't know why that should be considered a defining moment for Hall.

All good goalies who played long enough are going to have some great playoff series and some weak ones, so cherry-picking individual series doesn't make sense. I agree that Glenn Hall's playoff performances overall weren't as strong as his regular season play, and that is a potential reason to drop him a spot or two on the all-time ranking list. However, I do think there were enough good performances in there that Hall was far from a playoff choker.
Good post.

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03-14-2009, 03:59 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
According to the breakdown of games on the Hockey Summary Project, the Chicago Blackhawks were outshot with Glenn Hall in net in every single playoff series from 1962 to 1967, even the ones that they won. The stats aren't available, but that streak might even go as far back as 1958 to include every playoff series Hall played in Chicago, depending on whether or not the Hawks outshot the Wings in the 1961 Stanley Cup Final.

That doesn't really suggest that they were dominating lesser opponents, or that their goalie was the one costing them games. Maybe Hall's terrific regular season play made the Hawks look better in the standings than they actually were as a team once the playoffs began?

Compare that with someone like Martin Brodeur, cited in this thread as someone who was a much better playoff goalie than Hall, whose team outshot the opposition in 20 out of his first 22 playoff series. Team factors are really important in evaluating playoff goaltending.

It seems like certain goalies get a disproportionate focus on a few playoff series that they lost, whereas similar performances by others just blend into the background because they have a few Cups to deflect attention. Sure, Glenn Hall lost in the first round in 1957 as a Red Wing. So did Terry Sawchuk in 1953, only Sawchuk was on a better team and played even worse then Hall did against a much worse opponent. I don't think anyone counts that as a major black mark against Sawchuk, so I don't know why that should be considered a defining moment for Hall.

All good goalies who played long enough are going to have some great playoff series and some weak ones, so cherry-picking individual series doesn't make sense. I agree that Glenn Hall's playoff performances overall weren't as strong as his regular season play, and that is a potential reason to drop him a spot or two on the all-time ranking list. However, I do think there were enough good performances in there that Hall was far from a playoff choker.
Agreed... very good post!

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03-14-2009, 05:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Center Shift View Post
According to the breakdown of games on the Hockey Summary Project, the Chicago Blackhawks were outshot with Glenn Hall in net in every single playoff series from 1962 to 1967, even the ones that they won. The stats aren't available, but that streak might even go as far back as 1958 to include every playoff series Hall played in Chicago, depending on whether or not the Hawks outshot the Wings in the 1961 Stanley Cup Final.

That doesn't really suggest that they were dominating lesser opponents, or that their goalie was the one costing them games. Maybe Hall's terrific regular season play made the Hawks look better in the standings than they actually were as a team once the playoffs began?
That is no different than the regular season. The Hawks played the most defense first system in the league and were usually outshot by the opposition. That was their game. It was how they won games in the regular season.

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03-14-2009, 05:45 PM
  #34
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Darn it. Hockey outsider did a nice analysis of why the Hawks didn't win more cups in the 60's & I can't locate it, the gist of it was that the Hawk stars performed very well in the playoffs but their secondary players didn't. In other words, they didn't have the depth of the Habs & leafs.
Unfortunately I can't post this article here as it has been published and I believe the copyright now belongs to the publisher. (I have been meaning to check that). Anyway, I think I can quote a few lines:

"Hall also started most of the team’s playoff games. His level of play “dropped” from a 91.9% save percentage in the regular season to 91.7% save percentage in the playoffs... During the playoffs, Hall led the postseason in save percentage once (1961) and was second three times (1962, 1963 and 1965), which is very similar to his level of dominance during the regular season. In the seven playoff seasons from 1961 to 1967, Hall ranks third in save percentage (behind Bower and Worsley)."

I agree that Hall wasn't as great a playoff performer as Roy or Plante, but he basically maintained his strong level of play. It's not his fault his team stopped scoring in the spring.

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03-14-2009, 07:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Unfortunately I can't post this article here as it has been published and I believe the copyright now belongs to the publisher. (I have been meaning to check that). Anyway, I think I can quote a few lines:

"Hall also started most of the team’s playoff games. His level of play “dropped” from a 91.9% save percentage in the regular season to 91.7% save percentage in the playoffs... During the playoffs, Hall led the postseason in save percentage once (1961) and was second three times (1962, 1963 and 1965), which is very similar to his level of dominance during the regular season. In the seven playoff seasons from 1961 to 1967, Hall ranks third in save percentage (behind Bower and Worsley)."

I agree that Hall wasn't as great a playoff performer as Roy or Plante, but he basically maintained his strong level of play. It's not his fault his team stopped scoring in the spring.
Hockey outsider. Have you published a book of your analyses?

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03-14-2009, 08:39 PM
  #36
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Glenn Hall

I would like to make the following comments having watched Glenn Hall play from the 1958-59 season until his retirement.

The Blackhawks from the 1958-59 season until expansion were a solid offensive team that lacked depth. The 1960-61 team that won the Stanley Cup featured a number of players that were approaching the end of their careers, Tod Sloan, Ed Litzenberger, Earl Balfour, Dollard St.Laurent, Jack Evans, a few spare parts that came together - Al Arbour, Reg Fleming, Ab McDonald, led by two great but young offensive players in Stan Mikita and Bobby Hull supported by Pierre Pilote, Ken Wharram,Murray Balfour, Bill Hay. The early retirement of Bill Hay and the illness that eventually claimed Murray Balfour's life would hurt them later in the 1960's.

Glenn Hall stole the 1961 semi finals against the Canadiens. The Blackhawks - the better team, then won the Cup against Detroit. The older Hawks were never able to capture the magic that led them to the 1961 Cup. Hull, Mikita went on to have great careers.

The problem with the Blackhawks from 1958 until expansion was that their defence lacked depth behind Pierre Pilote who was a small player and who would wear down.Most of the NHL teams from that era featured at least two HOF caliber d-men, granted Boivin and Flaman with Boston are debatable. Vasko never developed while the others Evans, St.Laurent, Arbour were rejects culled from other teams.

Some of the older forwards left after the 1961 Cup run and were never replaced. While the Blackhawks were very good teams they had problems come play-off time since in a seven game series the third line rarely stepped-up and the core Mikita, Hull, Pilote would be targeted and eventually would wear down.

Another factor was that Rudy Pilous / Billy Reay would get out coached by the likes of Toe Blake or Punch Imlach.

Glenn Hall was an exceptional goalie given that he rarely had a good defense in front of him. If anyhing he extended the various series that the Hawks lost and was responsible for the Blues being competitive in the finals from 1968 - 1970.

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03-14-2009, 08:53 PM
  #37
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I would like to make the following comments having watched Glenn Hall play from the 1958-59 season until his retirement.

The Blackhawks from the 1958-59 season until expansion were a solid offensive team that lacked depth. The 1960-61 team that won the Stanley Cup featured a number of players that were approaching the end of their careers, Tod Sloan, Ed Litzenberger, Earl Balfour, Dollard St.Laurent, Jack Evans, a few spare parts that came together - Al Arbour, Reg Fleming, Ab McDonald, led by two great but young offensive players in Stan Mikita and Bobby Hull supported by Pierre Pilote, Ken Wharram,Murray Balfour, Bill Hay. The early retirement of Bill Hay and the illness that eventually claimed Murray Balfour's life would hurt them later in the 1960's.

Glenn Hall stole the 1961 semi finals against the Canadiens. The Blackhawks - the better team, then won the Cup against Detroit. The older Hawks were never able to capture the magic that led them to the 1961 Cup. Hull, Mikita went on to have great careers.

The problem with the Blackhawks from 1958 until expansion was that their defence lacked depth behind Pierre Pilote who was a small player and who would wear down.Most of the NHL teams from that era featured at least two HOF caliber d-men, granted Boivin and Flaman with Boston are debatable. Vasko never developed while the others Evans, St.Laurent, Arbour were rejects culled from other teams.

Some of the older forwards left after the 1961 Cup run and were never replaced. While the Blackhawks were very good teams they had problems come play-off time since in a seven game series the third line rarely stepped-up and the core Mikita, Hull, Pilote would be targeted and eventually would wear down.

Another factor was that Rudy Pilous / Billy Reay would get out coached by the likes of Toe Blake or Punch Imlach.

Glenn Hall was an exceptional goalie given that he rarely had a good defense in front of him. If anyhing he extended the various series that the Hawks lost and was responsible for the Blues being competitive in the finals from 1968 - 1970.
I think you have nailed it pretty good. IMO, the hawk team that won in 61 was the only Hawk team of that era that had depth & that is why they won the cup. They had a great goalie in Hall. Very deep defense. Pilote and Vasko were at there peak. St' Laurent, Evans & arbour were very solid. The Million dollar line & the Scooter line were fantastic. The third line had Captain Litzenberger & Sloan, both former Allstars. Litz was only 28 & 2 years previously was a top 5 scorer who was trying to shake off the effects of a bad auto accident. The Hawks never had that depth & experience again.

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03-14-2009, 09:55 PM
  #38
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I disagree. The Hawks had one of the best defensive teams in the league in front of Hall(I mean as a team, not the defensemen). A point Pappy often makes when talking about why Hull and Mikita would have scored more on another team if they were not stuck in such a defensive system.

Regarding them lacking defensemen. Pappyline here has just been going on and on lately about how awesome and underrated Vasko was, and the rest of the team backchecked quite fiercely to give them aid.

If their defense was thin as you say, why did they convert Doug Mohns to forwards when he arrived? Mohns was an excellent defender who was still in his prime.

The Hawks defense was not as starless as, say, the Broad Street Bullies during their cup runs. Yet they still managed to be a very effective unit. You do not always need superstars to be a very effective defensive unit. Especially when you have superstars backchecking constantly.

In all, from the talk of the time, to newspaper clips, to my memory. Hall was not near Plante/Sawchuk in the playoffs. The red wings during that period were not the powerhouse they once were, and they always finished below Chicago in the Regular season, but always managed to beat chicago in the playoffs, despite having a weaker team.

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03-14-2009, 10:34 PM
  #39
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Defensive Teams

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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
I disagree. The Hawks had one of the best defensive teams in the league in front of Hall(I mean as a team, not the defensemen). A point Pappy often makes when talking about why Hull and Mikita would have scored more on another team if they were not stuck in such a defensive system.

Regarding them lacking defensemen. Pappyline here has just been going on and on lately about how awesome and underrated Vasko was, and the rest of the team backchecked quite fiercely to give them aid.

If their defense was thin as you say, why did they convert Doug Mohns to forwards when he arrived? Mohns was an excellent defender who was still in his prime.

The Hawks defense was not as starless as, say, the Broad Street Bullies during their cup runs. Yet they still managed to be a very effective unit. You do not always need superstars to be a very effective defensive unit. Especially when you have superstars backchecking constantly.

In all, from the talk of the time, to newspaper clips, to my memory. Hall was not near Plante/Sawchuk in the playoffs. The red wings during that period were not the powerhouse they once were, and they always finished below Chicago in the Regular season, but always managed to beat chicago in the playoffs, despite having a weaker team.
Chicago's team defense could not compare to Toronto. They did not have a defensive center to match Keon and none of their secondary forwards could match Armstrong,Pulford, Stewart or Olmstead. On the blueline Pilote could have made the Leafs regular 4 man rotation but the rest could not.

Mohns was moved up front for his speed and defensive responsibility on the Scooter line. At times it looked like the Hawks were trying to imitate the success Toronto had moving Red Kelly up front. Doug Mohns was a bit above average as a d-man. Not HOF quality.

You overlook coaching and management. Rudy Pilous and Tommy Ivan or Billy Reay and Tommy Ivan vs Toe Blake / Frank Selke or Sam Pollock or vs Punch Imlach or vs Sid Abel/Jack Adams. Just look at the ease with which the opponents managed to get their key checkers out against Bobby Hull in the play-offs.

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03-14-2009, 10:54 PM
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I met him once, really nice guy.

For what it's worth, I asked him who he thought the best goaltender ever was, he said it's a tie between Johnny Bower and Turk Broda.

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03-14-2009, 11:05 PM
  #41
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Chicago's team defense could not compare to Toronto. They did not have a defensive center to match Keon and none of their secondary forwards could match Armstrong,Pulford, Stewart or Olmstead. On the blueline Pilote could have made the Leafs regular 4 man rotation but the rest could not.

Mohns was moved up front for his speed and defensive responsibility on the Scooter line. At times it looked like the Hawks were trying to imitate the success Toronto had moving Red Kelly up front. Doug Mohns was a bit above average as a d-man. Not HOF quality.

You overlook coaching and management. Rudy Pilous and Tommy Ivan or Billy Reay and Tommy Ivan vs Toe Blake / Frank Selke or Sam Pollock or vs Punch Imlach or vs Sid Abel/Jack Adams. Just look at the ease with which the opponents managed to get their key checkers out against Bobby Hull in the play-offs.
Billy Reay was among the best of the coaches you just named.

Regarding Toronto. I am less interested in them vs Toronto as Chicago vs Detroit. Chicago routinely beat Detroit in the regular season and had a better team, but lost to them in the first round 3+ times.

For the record, few had a defensive center to match Keon(Short of Provost or Henri Richard both on one team). However, Mikita himself was Selke caliber and better offensively. On the blueline, Pilote was better than any defenseman on Toronto


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03-14-2009, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Unfortunately I can't post this article here as it has been published and I believe the copyright now belongs to the publisher. (I have been meaning to check that). Anyway, I think I can quote a few lines:

"Hall also started most of the team’s playoff games. His level of play “dropped” from a 91.9% save percentage in the regular season to 91.7% save percentage in the playoffs... During the playoffs, Hall led the postseason in save percentage once (1961) and was second three times (1962, 1963 and 1965), which is very similar to his level of dominance during the regular season. In the seven playoff seasons from 1961 to 1967, Hall ranks third in save percentage (behind Bower and Worsley)."

I agree that Hall wasn't as great a playoff performer as Roy or Plante, but he basically maintained his strong level of play. It's not his fault his team stopped scoring in the spring.
Amen

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03-15-2009, 02:31 AM
  #43
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I would like to make the following comments having watched Glenn Hall play from the 1958-59 season until his retirement.

The Blackhawks from the 1958-59 season until expansion were a solid offensive team that lacked depth. The 1960-61 team that won the Stanley Cup featured a number of players that were approaching the end of their careers, Tod Sloan, Ed Litzenberger, Earl Balfour, Dollard St.Laurent, Jack Evans, a few spare parts that came together - Al Arbour, Reg Fleming, Ab McDonald, led by two great but young offensive players in Stan Mikita and Bobby Hull supported by Pierre Pilote, Ken Wharram,Murray Balfour, Bill Hay. The early retirement of Bill Hay and the illness that eventually claimed Murray Balfour's life would hurt them later in the 1960's.

Glenn Hall stole the 1961 semi finals against the Canadiens. The Blackhawks - the better team, then won the Cup against Detroit. The older Hawks were never able to capture the magic that led them to the 1961 Cup. Hull, Mikita went on to have great careers.

The problem with the Blackhawks from 1958 until expansion was that their defence lacked depth behind Pierre Pilote who was a small player and who would wear down.Most of the NHL teams from that era featured at least two HOF caliber d-men, granted Boivin and Flaman with Boston are debatable. Vasko never developed while the others Evans, St.Laurent, Arbour were rejects culled from other teams.

Some of the older forwards left after the 1961 Cup run and were never replaced. While the Blackhawks were very good teams they had problems come play-off time since in a seven game series the third line rarely stepped-up and the core Mikita, Hull, Pilote would be targeted and eventually would wear down.

Another factor was that Rudy Pilous / Billy Reay would get out coached by the likes of Toe Blake or Punch Imlach.

Glenn Hall was an exceptional goalie given that he rarely had a good defense in front of him. If anyhing he extended the various series that the Hawks lost and was responsible for the Blues being competitive in the finals from 1968 - 1970.
Sorry to nitpick, but Hall deserves little credit for the Blues 1969 Cup run. In the playoffs he only played the final two games against the Canadiens (plus the first 11 minutes of the Blues first playoff game), Plante played the first two games of the series, as well as the full two series' before.

Plante 1968-69 playoffs
10 games, 8 wins, 2 losses, 14 goals against, 3 shutouts, 1.43 gaa

Hall 1968-69 playoffs
3 games, 0 wins, 2 losses, 5 goals against, 0 shutouts, 2.29 gaa

At best in 1970 you could say that he should share the credit for that Cup run as he and Plante split the goaltending.

Plante 1969-70 playoffs
6 games, 4 wins, 1 loss, 8 goals against, 1 shutout, 1.48 gaa

Hall 1969-70 playoffs
7 games, 4 wins, 3 losses, 21 goals against, 0 shutouts. 2.99 gaa

*obviously Hall's stats are a little higher, having played against Boston in the finals after Plante was knocked out in the first game.

Either way is he responsible for the Blues 1968 Cup run? Yes. 1969? No. 1970? In part.

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03-15-2009, 07:18 AM
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Again...........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Billy Reay was among the best of the coaches you just named.

Regarding Toronto. I am less interested in them vs Toronto as Chicago vs Detroit. Chicago routinely beat Detroit in the regular season and had a better team, but lost to them in the first round 3+ times.

For the record, few had a defensive center to match Keon(Short of Provost or Henri Richard both on one team). However, Mikita himself was Selke caliber and better offensively. On the blueline, Pilote was better than any defenseman on Toronto
Amongst the best is not the best. Billy Reay as a coach was not as good as Toe Blake or Punch Imlach over a seven game series. Blake and Imlach always managed to get the favourable match-ups. Game seven of the 1965 finals is a prime example. The Hawks simply were not ready, down 4-0 in the first period.Game and Cup. Blake and Imlach also figured out the advantages of rotating veteran goalies before others did.

Chicago vs Detroit. During the season teams do not have the luxury of tweaking strategy for specific teams. Seven game series is different. Detroit had Gordie Howe and a core group of veterans - Delveccho, Ullman, Gadsby, M.Pronovost plus a pest like Bryan Watson to play against Hull. They were able to limit Hull and Mikita.The rest of the Hawks did not step-up.

Unlike the Canadiens,Chicago never had a player like Gilles Tremblay to cover Howe. Pilote their best d-man was smallish while the rest of their d-men post 1961 were so-so, so Howe would dominate the boards and the slot.

Pilote better than any Leaf d-men? Depending on the team style and needs. Leaf d-men were very physical which helped against Detroit where they could match-up against Howe.

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03-15-2009, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Chicago vs Detroit. During the season teams do not have the luxury of tweaking strategy for specific teams. Seven game series is different. Detroit had Gordie Howe and a core group of veterans - Delveccho, Ullman, Gadsby, M.Pronovost plus a pest like Bryan Watson to play against Hull. They were able to limit Hull and Mikita.The rest of the Hawks did not step-up.
In 1962-63, during their first round exit, the following Hawks stepped up production.

Bobby Hull 8 goals and 10 points in 5 games. Pierre Pilote 8 assists in 6 games. Ah hell, ill just start Listing off guys who increased their production from the regular season. Wharram, Nesterenko and Hay all increased their production, and McDonald's production remained near equal. Mikita did have a slight drop, but still managed 3 goals and 5 points in 6 games while playing like a Selke caliber forward.

Hall leaked too many goals in this series.

I don't really have time to go through every series with Detroit right now.

In the meantime, I posted 2 full playoff games with the Hawks from 62 vs the leafs and 65 vs the Wings in this thread.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=593861

I game Hall had a great game against Toronto and the Hawks team showed that they played a tight checking, excellent game. The second game against Detroit, Hall started off making some terrific saves shorthanded in the first period, and then let a few I thought he could have had easily in. The game is worth watching mostly because of Bobby Hull's dominating presence.


Quote:
Unlike the Canadiens,Chicago never had a player like Gilles Tremblay to cover Howe. Pilote their best d-man was smallish while the rest of their d-men post 1961 were so-so, so Howe would dominate the boards and the slot.

Pilote better than any Leaf d-men? Depending on the team style and needs. Leaf d-men were very physical which helped against Detroit where they could match-up against Howe.
Uh, what???

Pilote....small? Sure, but by the standards of the 60's, he was not that small(Tim Horton was the same size). Tough as Nails? Yes. Capable of handling bigger forwards with little trouble and separating them from the puck? Yes. Pierre could handle any forward in the League. He also never got "Worn down". He played like an iron man. What were you watching?

I can accept you defending Hall, but don't do it at the expense of Pilote. He was much more than you seem to think.

Pappyline, who is a huge Hawks fan, also thinks Vasko was much better than most give him credit for.

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03-15-2009, 05:58 PM
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The 1962-63 Semi Finals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
In 1962-63, during their first round exit, the following Hawks stepped up production.

Bobby Hull 8 goals and 10 points in 5 games. Pierre Pilote 8 assists in 6 games. Ah hell, ill just start Listing off guys who increased their production from the regular season. Wharram, Nesterenko and Hay all increased their production, and McDonald's production remained near equal. Mikita did have a slight drop, but still managed 3 goals and 5 points in 6 games while playing like a Selke caliber forward.

Hall leaked too many goals in this series.

I don't really have time to go through every series with Detroit right now.

In the meantime, I posted 2 full playoff games with the Hawks from 62 vs the leafs and 65 vs the Wings in this thread.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=593861

I game Hall had a great game against Toronto and the Hawks team showed that they played a tight checking, excellent game. The second game against Detroit, Hall started off making some terrific saves shorthanded in the first period, and then let a few I thought he could have had easily in. The game is worth watching mostly because of Bobby Hull's dominating presence.



Uh, what???

Pilote....small? Sure, but by the standards of the 60's, he was not that small(Tim Horton was the same size). Tough as Nails? Yes. Capable of handling bigger forwards with little trouble and separating them from the puck? Yes. Pierre could handle any forward in the League. He also never got "Worn down". He played like an iron man. What were you watching?

I can accept you defending Hall, but don't do it at the expense of Pilote. He was much more than you seem to think.

Pappyline, who is a huge Hawks fan, also thinks Vasko was much better than most give him credit for.

Remember the series well. Hull's slapshot and the Hawks powerplay vs the Wings dominating the slot and the boards. High scoring series. Momentum changed after Hull suffered a broken nose. Wings won four out of the last five which is a sign that a team was worn down physically.

Look at the finals against Toronto. Leafs in 5 games outscoring the Wings almost 2 to 1. Handled the Wings in the slot and along the boards. Physical d-men.

Horton had about 20lbs on Pilote. Such a difference against Howe over a 7 game series adds up. Overall talent Pilote might be #1 ahead of Horton, Stanley, Brewer, Baun but the rest of the Hawks d-men ?????????

Vasko. Not a 2nd d-man. Nowhere close to HOF talent. Look at who the Hawks had as d-men in the early 1960's St.Laurent, Turner, MacNeil moved by the Canadiens.
Evans and Arbour moved by their original teams. Ravlich and W.hillman who became NHL journeymen.

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03-15-2009, 07:07 PM
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Horton had about 20lbs on Pilote. Such a difference against Howe over a 7 game series adds up. Overall talent Pilote might be #1 ahead of Horton, Stanley, Brewer, Baun but the rest of the Hawks d-men ?????????
Hockey-reference.com, Wikipedia.com, the Blackhawks official site and NHL.com
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8448152
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...pilotpi01.html
http://blackhawks.nhl.com/team/app?p...2&service=page

Pierre Pilote 5'10, 178 lbs
Tim Horton 5'10, 180 lbs

When he was a member of the Buffalo Bisons just getting into Hockey, he was 165lbs(Hockeydb.com uses weight taken during draft years or Rookie years). After a few years in the NHL, he was 178.

Him and Tim Horton were the same size.

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03-15-2009, 08:07 PM
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Hockey outsider. Have you published a book of your analyses?
I wish I had the time & industry connection to do that. If I did, you guys would be the first to know. It was published in the Society for International Hockey Research's annual journal.

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03-15-2009, 08:22 PM
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1)Terry Sawchuk
2)Jacques Plante
3)Glenn Hall
4)Martin Brodeur
5)Patrick Roy

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03-15-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
1)Terry Sawchuk
2)Jacques Plante
3)Glenn Hall
4)Martin Brodeur
5)Patrick Roy
Hmmm. I had Sawchuk that high initially before I realized just how short his prime was due to his alcoholism. Crazy good 5 year peak though. 46 of his 103 shutouts came from those 5 years. A couple of Conn Smythe worthy playoff performances to boot.

Plante was my choice this time around for #1 overall, Hasek and Roy 3 and 4.

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