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P/P and the new additions?

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:34 AM
  #1
dafink44
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P/P and the new additions?

OK, general discussion question here:

Does the addition of Avery, Morris and Antrapov (sp?) make our P/P legit or is this just an apparation?

Also is it possible for Avery to sustain this level of play? A part of me wants to say he can but is that really possible?

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03-16-2009, 10:39 AM
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Fletch
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I think it's fair to say that the PP prior to Torts underperformed. I think it's fair to say that currently there are more pieces to the PP puzzle that can be used on the PP, and some of those pieces are better than those prior to the recent acquisitions. It's also fair to say that in no event should it be reasonable to expect this PP to be anything more than above average, although that may even be a stretch, and there's no reason why the prior PP should've been expected to be above average.

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dafink44 View Post
OK, general discussion question here:

Does the addition of Avery, Morris and Antrapov (sp?) make our P/P legit or is this just an apparation?

Also is it possible for Avery to sustain this level of play? A part of me wants to say he can but is that really possible?


wOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOo

Depends on your definition of "legit". Probably still not one of the top PPs, but added talent and better coaching should put us in the middle somewhere.

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:41 AM
  #4
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"aberration"

I think the PP still isn't looking that great. Sometimes they play it better, a fair amount of the time it still looks the same. I guess that can be expected somewhat since they have to break out their old habits. Sometimes you see guys moving around real well and moving the puck well. Other times you see them standing around again, or doing some horrible attempt at dump and chase or losing the puck at the blueline trying to get into the zone.

It's a work in progress as far as I'm concerned.

I think the new guys will help, though, if for no other reason than they aren't mired in the same mindset the rest of the team is. Antropov does add skill too

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:42 AM
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WhipNash27
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Perry Pearn made me want to PP on the PP.

Torts, however, has done a good job so far. 19.5% since his arrival.

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:01 AM
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ThirdEye
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It still needs more polishing, but there is definitely more "urgency" there. Neither our forwards nor our defensemen really have great offensive instincts, so it's never going to be outstanding or anything. It's definitely not 14% bad though

I'm still worried that it will be way too easy to contain if we make the playoffs.

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:07 AM
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I Am Chariot
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Truth is the PP had nowhere to go but up!

The team is gaining confidence. There are still some guys who just need to to shoot more.

Goal scorers all have the same basic philosophy. Ive heard it in interview after interview. Gretzky, Gartner, Bossy, Ovechkin, Parise

"I'm going to shoot the puck at the net as many times as I can knowing the more I shoot the more I will score"

Granted those guys all have great shots, but I think Mike Gartner even had it down to percentages. He said he knew he had to get 5-6 sog a game to get a goal....

15 straight 30 goal seasons


Im not one of those people constantly yelling shoot, but the team needs to keep shooting the puck on net.

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:13 AM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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The addition of Tortorella makes the PP work IMO.

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
Truth is the PP had nowhere to go but up!

The team is gaining confidence. There are still some guys who just need to to shoot more.

Goal scorers all have the same basic philosophy. Ive heard it in interview after interview. Gretzky, Gartner, Bossy, Ovechkin, Parise

"I'm going to shoot the puck at the net as many times as I can knowing the more I shoot the more I will score"

Granted those guys all have great shots, but I think Mike Gartner even had it down to percentages. He said he knew he had to get 5-6 sog a game to get a goal....

15 straight 30 goal seasons


Im not one of those people constantly yelling shoot, but the team needs to keep shooting the puck on net.
As you mentioned, it all comes down to the shot that they have... Gomez could shoot it 1000 times, and there still aren't many pucks going in.

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:50 AM
  #10
I Am Chariot
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Well if Gartner needed 5 sog than Gomer should take 10.




Really just the rise in urgency and focusing on bodies and pucks to the net is obviously helping.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:19 PM
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Bluenote13
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Avery's grit and Antropov' body have made everyone forget that our point men still suck really badly on the PP.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
The addition of Tortorella makes the PP work IMO.
Agreed. Torts definitely seems to have put new life into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Avery's grit and Antropov' body have made everyone forget that our point men still suck really badly on the PP.
Very true. Morris has looked good though. And hopefully those two will attract PKers to free up the point men more.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:42 PM
  #13
Fletch
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Morris has "looked" good in that he's a right-handed shot that's somewhat mobile.

The PP does move around a lot more and moves the puck better. The point men really aren't very good at all as Bluenote points out. They are indecisive and still don't know when to keep the puck in or peel back. They have been better and getting the puck baclk and forth and setting up for the shot, but still, they just aren't that great. This team still sorely lacks a guy who can bring up the puck, cross the line and hold the line. Gomez is the best this team has, but he also isn't very good at it. 19%+ for Torts thus far is nice (although skewed by the relatively few games he's coached, but admittedly it does "look" better). I think 19%+ is high for this group, but hopefully they don't realize that.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Avery's grit and Antropov' body have made everyone forget that our point men still suck really badly on the PP.
Yep, Redden and Rozsival are pretty terrible up there. Their constant indecisiveness alone makes our PP that much worse

Mara and Morris are much better in that respect, but neither of them can really QB because their hockey sense is average at best. We really don't have anyone can open up lanes, etc..

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:14 PM
  #15
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PP is better but.. they still cant carry the puck over the blueline.

Tired of dump and chase only to be cleared out and start all over. Seems only Gomez can QB the play. Morris has to shoot more with that low shot. I wish he would fake more, than move and shoot so it doesnt get blocked

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:22 PM
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What I see is better puck movement but just as important is we're getting to the net a lot better. Antropov's size is something we needed for a while. Not going to score all that many goals when the other team completely controls the slot. Avery as well creates havoc in front of the opposing net. It helps.

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:32 PM
  #17
vipernsx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dafink44 View Post
Does the addition of Avery, Morris and Antrapov (sp?) make our P/P legit or is this just an apparation?
Coaching had as much to do with the PP as personnel. The personnel changes really haven't changed the skillset on the PP much at all and prior to last nights game the PP hasn't been too much different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dafink44 View Post
Also is it possible for Avery to sustain this level of play? A part of me wants to say he can but is that really possible?
If level of play is goals scored, no, he's not a 50 goal scorer, consider this a streak. There will be times when he goes for long stretches without a goal and they will average each other out.

If level of play is his pesky attitude and getting teams to focus too much on him and not on the important things, yes, that's what he's there for and that's what he does best.

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:48 PM
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Avery won't sustain this level of play. There's no chance.

In fact, soon will come his famous disappearance, and we won't make it past the second round again.

He isn't a savior. He will lose his cool again.

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:50 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vipernsx View Post
Coaching had as much to do with the PP as personnel. The personnel changes really haven't changed the skillset on the PP much at all and prior to last nights game the PP hasn't been too much different.
I don't know about that. Who sits atop the league in PP%? Detroit, Washington, San Jose, Boston, Buffalo. Teams with legitimate offensive talent. I think a good system can turn mediocre talent into a decent PP unit, but I don't think it has "just as much to do" as the talent itself.

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:56 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Crash the Net View Post
Avery won't sustain this level of play. There's no chance.

In fact, soon will come his famous disappearance, and we won't make it past the second round again.

He isn't a savior. He will lose his cool again.
He never lost his cool in the first place and he played at this level just about all of last year with the Rangers.

For whatever reason, he plays great with this team.

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Old
03-16-2009, 02:02 PM
  #21
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I don't know about that. Who sits atop the league in PP%? Detroit, Washington, San Jose, Boston, Buffalo. Teams with legitimate offensive talent. I think a good system can turn mediocre talent into a decent PP unit, but I don't think it has "just as much to do" as the talent itself.
At the same time, look at the coaches of those teams:

Babcock- Jack Adams finalist last year
Boudreau- Jack Adams winner last year
Todd McLellan- Likely to be in the running for the Jack Adams this year
Claude Julien- Is also considered to be in the running for the Jack Adams
Lindy Ruff- Won the jack Adams in 05-06, was nominated again in 06-07

Those teams all have pretty good or, in some cases, awesome, coaching, in addition to talent.

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Old
03-16-2009, 02:02 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Crash the Net View Post
Avery won't sustain this level of play. There's no chance.

In fact, soon will come his famous disappearance, and we won't make it past the second round again.

He isn't a savior. He will lose his cool again.
So you're blaming Avery on our second round exits? Avery is what he is... sometimes very effective, sometimes somewhat effective, and sometimes not very. If you expect him to perform miracles in every playoff series then you're just not being very realistic. A pest like Avery isn't going to make up for the difference in skill or effort of two teams.. not even close. You take what he gives and use that to your advantage. If he's in a slump maybe it's time for someone else to step up for a change

The performance of these players respectively will determine how far we get in the playoffs:

Lundqvist, Gomez, Zherdev, Drury, Naslund, Antropov, Staal, Rozsival, Redden and then maybe Avery.

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Old
03-16-2009, 02:06 PM
  #23
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So you're blaming Avery on our second round exits? Avery is what he is... sometimes very effective, sometimes somewhat effective, and sometimes not very. If you expect him to perform miracles in every playoff series then you're just not being very realistic. A pest like Avery isn't going to make up for the difference in skill or effort of two teams.. not even close. You take what he gives and use that to your advantage. If he's in a slump maybe it's time for someone else to step up for a change
Agreed. Part of the reason for his varied effectiveness comes from the fact that his impact is largely determined by the other team. If the other team gets sucked into his psycho shenanigans, he seems very effective. He could do all the same things in the next round, but if the other team doesn't acknowledge he exists, there isn't much he can do.

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Old
03-16-2009, 02:26 PM
  #24
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At the same time, look at the coaches of those teams:

Babcock- Jack Adams finalist last year
Boudreau- Jack Adams winner last year
Todd McLellan- Likely to be in the running for the Jack Adams this year
Claude Julien- Is also considered to be in the running for the Jack Adams
Lindy Ruff- Won the jack Adams in 05-06, was nominated again in 06-07

Those teams all have pretty good or, in some cases, awesome, coaching, in addition to talent.
It's a chicken-and-egg question. Are those coaches winning Adams awards because they're great coaches, or are they winning Adams awards because they have great talent which makes them look good? I don't know much about McLellan, but the rest are good coaches, don't get me wrong. Still, having excellent talent is obviously key to success. Same goes for the PP, IMO.

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Old
03-16-2009, 02:27 PM
  #25
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Thirdeye...so in other words, Avery is a very good third line player and a decent second line player. He has the skill to be a very good second liner, but he doesn't have the head for it. That's basically what you get for a guy who runs hot and cold like that - and at $2MM per season, I don't think we should expect much more.

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