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m. Brodeurs record

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Old
03-16-2009, 05:18 PM
  #1
Long Sky
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m. Brodeurs record

I only want to know one thing. Does his record include overtime and shoot out wins? In the past a goalies had wins, losses and ties. Now they only have wins and losses. How many of Marty's wins might have been ties? I was only wondering. Who knows the rule? Thanks for the answer

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03-16-2009, 05:26 PM
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TroyM
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While I don't know for sure, I think they count OT/SO wins as just plain wins. And I don't think you are trying to say otherwise, but even if they didn't count those, there is no way Marty wouldn't break Roy's record anyway in the next couple of years and be at the top.

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03-16-2009, 05:27 PM
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mapes
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Well overtime has always counted as a win.. and yes, they do include the shootout.. he has 26 shootout wins (most in the NHL). But he would still beat Roy's record next season anyways in less games than Roy won his.. doesn't really matter. Personally, I don't think a goalie should get a "win" in the shootout because shooters don't get credit for goals, so why should goalies get credit for anything?

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03-16-2009, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Well overtime has always counted as a win.. and yes, they do include the shootout.. he has 26 shootout wins (most in the NHL). But he would still beat Roy's record next season anyways in less games than Roy won his.. doesn't really matter. Personally, I don't think a goalie should get a "win" in the shootout because shooters don't get credit for goals, so why should goalies get credit for anything?
Say it's 0-0 going into the shootout, and both goalies have played outstanding games and then the shoot out goes five rounds because nobody can score on either goalie, then finally one goes past, game over, nothing for the goalies to show for it?

Obviously an extreme extreme example, but situations like that are frequent. The goalies are in all game making the stops, and face every shooter in the shootout on a breakaway, I think they deserve the W.

It would be nice to see some sort of reward for players too or something, but you can't count the goals because it's not really a game-like situation to have such an easy chance to score. While the goalies don't get credit for saves either, and it doesn't affect their SV%/GAA because it's not at all like a real game.

This is kind of a jumbled argument, but basically I think the system works as is, and the goalies should certainly get the W for winning in the shootout.

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03-16-2009, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Well overtime has always counted as a win.. and yes, they do include the shootout.. he has 26 shootout wins (most in the NHL). But he would still beat Roy's record next season anyways in less games than Roy won his.. doesn't really matter. Personally, I don't think a goalie should get a "win" in the shootout because shooters don't get credit for goals, so why should goalies get credit for anything?
goalies get credits for wins because the game was won. The game was won, so it counts.

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03-16-2009, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Well overtime has always counted as a win.. and yes, they do include the shootout.. he has 26 shootout wins (most in the NHL). But he would still beat Roy's record next season anyways in less games than Roy won his.. doesn't really matter. Personally, I don't think a goalie should get a "win" in the shootout because shooters don't get credit for goals, so why should goalies get credit for anything?
Well it does matter as if Roy had the chance to get SO victories he'd have significantly more wins with guys like Forsberg/Sakic/Hejduk/Drury shooting in front of him in Colorado.

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03-16-2009, 05:57 PM
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I believe they said Brodeur has 27 wins due to OT/SO wins. So, does not matter, by the end of next season he will probably beat Roy's record even if you exclude those.

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Old
03-16-2009, 06:20 PM
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Pierre Dagenais
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Well overtime has always counted as a win.. and yes, they do include the shootout.. he has 26 shootout wins (most in the NHL). But he would still beat Roy's record next season anyways in less games than Roy won his.. doesn't really matter. Personally, I don't think a goalie should get a "win" in the shootout because shooters don't get credit for goals, so why should goalies get credit for anything?
Goalies don't get saves for the shootout. Skaters don't get goals.

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Old
03-16-2009, 06:27 PM
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roy

doesn't Roy have 133 ties? How many would be wins in a s/o format?

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03-16-2009, 06:37 PM
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Doesn't really matter. When Roy was in the zone he was unbeatable. Play-off wins, conny smythes, clutch for a couple of real seasons.(ie play-offs) Hey, he sucked plenty in the season at times. (Some of you Habs fans don't want to remember that) But man, when he had that winning desire or whatever, he was unmatched. Brodeur almost as good, certainly a more consistant goalie,(65 games a year too let's not forget) but nobody could carry a team or win a game by himself in the modern era like Roy the **s hole that he was could.

Different people. Both special, but in my mind and experience Roy was more special, wink and all.

Tiresome debate really.


Last edited by dzd ncnfzd: 03-16-2009 at 06:44 PM.
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Old
03-16-2009, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 19nazzy View Post
Well it does matter as if Roy had the chance to get SO victories he'd have significantly more wins with guys like Forsberg/Sakic/Hejduk/Drury shooting in front of him in Colorado.
And Brodeur doesn't get the luxery of those shooters. Parise and Elias are decent but those guys you mentioned in their prime were huge but Brodeur would still have more regulation/overtime wins than Roy in less games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
goalies get credits for wins because the game was won. The game was won, so it counts.
But maybe not count in career wins or a different column or something. It gives goalies these days more of an advantage to win and break those records.

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03-16-2009, 07:35 PM
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What record is this?

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Old
03-16-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapes View Post
And Brodeur doesn't get the luxery of those shooters. Parise and Elias are decent but those guys you mentioned in their prime were huge but Brodeur would still have more regulation/overtime wins than Roy in less games.
But of the 131 ties Roy had how many would be s/o wins? I'll low-ball it and say 40% which is 53 wins. That means Brodeur would need another 2 seasons to break the record. He cannot get 53 wins in 43 games which is how many more games Roy has payed to date. But of course Brodeur has 105 ties as well, but I doubt he gets as many s/o wins due to the shooters Roy had, so its impossible to say. But no way does Brodeur match Roy's playoff stats which in reality is the most important.


Last edited by 11alias11: 03-16-2009 at 07:56 PM.
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03-16-2009, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
But of the 133 ties Roy had how many would be s/o wins? I'll low-ball it and say 40% which is 53 wins. That means Brodeur would need another 2 seasons to break the record. He cannot get 53 wins in 43 games which is how many more games Roy has payed to date.
Don't forget that Brodeur missed a whole season due to the lockout so that's a full season without wins. Low ball that to 30-35 wins if your gonna low ball Roy's 113 ties.

In the end record will be broken, Roy seems to agree himself.

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03-16-2009, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
Don't forget that Brodeur missed a whole season due to the lockout so that's a full season without wins. Low ball that to 30-35 wins if your gonna low ball Roy's 113 ties.

In the end record will be broken, Roy seems to agree himself.

But we're talking about games played, not seasons so the lockout season is a moot point....also I edited my post as my initial post wasn't very clear.

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03-16-2009, 08:00 PM
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HabsHockey
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Only record that's gonna be hard to catch is Roy's playoff wins

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03-16-2009, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
Only record that's gonna be hard to catch is Roy's playoff wins

and consecutive OT wins....and 3 Conn Smythe's for a goaltender....

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03-16-2009, 08:15 PM
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Like Roy not having the opportunity to win games in shootouts, Sawchuk didn't have the opportunity to win regular season games in overtime.

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03-16-2009, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roke View Post
Like Roy not having the opportunity to win games in shootouts, Sawchuk didn't have the opportunity to win regular season games in overtime.
but give him 40% of those ties as wins and he still doesn't have enough to surpass Roy.

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03-16-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
But of the 131 ties Roy had how many would be s/o wins? I'll low-ball it and say 40% which is 53 wins. That means Brodeur would need another 2 seasons to break the record. He cannot get 53 wins in 43 games which is how many more games Roy has payed to date. But of course Brodeur has 105 ties as well, but I doubt he gets as many s/o wins due to the shooters Roy had, so its impossible to say. But no way does Brodeur match Roy's playoff stats which in reality is the most important.
You can't say for sure how many ties he would have had. Overtimes now are 4 on 4 and teams play different when they have that point to lose (used to not get a point for going to OT) and more open. It's really tough to say.

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and consecutive OT wins....and 3 Conn Smythe's for a goaltender....
The Conn Smyth will be hard because you won't see many "dynasties" anymore. It'll be hard for any player to win that many.


The Roy/Brodeur debate will be a debate for many years to come because they are so close in talent. Roy has 4 cups and Brodeur currently has 3.. Roy also played on a stellar Avalanche team that was a clear number 1 and another that was one of the top 2 teams by far ('96 Detroit was solid). Both led their teams to a cup very quickly, as well. The shutouts record will be much more impressive, IMO, because that was thought to be unbreakable. I even read in a hockey book a few years ago that (Brodeur had 70 shutouts at the time) no one would ever reach 100+ shutouts and should stand for all-time.

Another goalie who gets overlooked alot when talking about these great goalies is Hasek. He had something like 5 Vezinas in 6 years (Jim Carey was the only guy to have the other) in the mid-90's, he just never really had a great team to play with.

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Old
03-16-2009, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
But of the 131 ties Roy had how many would be s/o wins? I'll low-ball it and say 40% which is 53 wins. That means Brodeur would need another 2 seasons to break the record. He cannot get 53 wins in 43 games which is how many more games Roy has payed to date. But of course Brodeur has 105 ties as well, but I doubt he gets as many s/o wins due to the shooters Roy had, so its impossible to say. But no way does Brodeur match Roy's playoff stats which in reality is the most important.
This logic is completely flawed.

Brodeur has only had the benefit of the last four seasons with shootout wins(not to mention the total lack of games Brodeur has played this last season). Why would you count Roy's whole career for them when Brodeur has had only a sliver of his with the shootout?

Who cares about the stats? Brodeur still has three Stanley Cups, what more do you need?

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:03 PM
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http://fantasysensehockey.blogspot.c...-all-time.html

Solid argument that levels the playing field in regards to Brodeur's inflated win totals.
Everybody tends to forget that Brodeur has played 8 seasons with 4 on 4 OT that rewarded
an extra point. A change that Roy only enjoyed for 3 of his 18 seasons

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03-16-2009, 11:16 PM
  #23
11alias11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
This logic is completely flawed.

Brodeur has only had the benefit of the last four seasons with shootout wins(not to mention the total lack of games Brodeur has played this last season). Why would you count Roy's whole career for them when Brodeur has had only a sliver of his with the shootout?
you must have missed this part....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
But of course Brodeur has 105 ties as well
I'm also taking into account the time when Brodeur played before the shootout. What I didn't mention is that just because the Avs had better shooters & would have won more shootouts, does not make Roy a better goaltender.

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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Who cares about the stats? Brodeur still has three Stanley Cups, what more do you need?
This logic is completely flawed. A lot of people care about the stats, they do matter. Otherwise, Henri Richard is the greatest player of all-time, and Marcel Dionne is a bottom feeder.

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Old
03-17-2009, 02:25 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11alias11 View Post
you must have missed this part....I'm also taking into account the time when Brodeur played before the shootout. What I didn't mention is that just because the Avs had better shooters & would have won more shootouts, does not make Roy a better goaltender.
No I didn't miss that part. You are basing your defense on hypothetical anecdotes, which are worth absolutely nothing.

Quote:
This logic is completely flawed. A lot of people care about the stats, they do matter. Otherwise, Henri Richard is the greatest player of all-time, and Marcel Dionne is a bottom feeder.
You were comparing Brodeur and Roy's playoff stats, as was I. Brodeur's playoff records are nothing to sneeze at either. After this season, Brodeur will most undoubtly reach 100 career playoff wins, and has a superior GAA in the playoffs than Roy and they both have very similar amounts of SO. I was merely pointing out that Stanley Cups are the most important playoff statistic because it means you were a part of a winning team. You could score all the goals, save all the pucks or whatever during the playoffs, but if you don't win, those stats are essentially useless because they went to a negligible cause.

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Old
03-17-2009, 04:15 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by TroyM View Post
Say it's 0-0 going into the shootout, and both goalies have played outstanding games and then the shoot out goes five rounds because nobody can score on either goalie, then finally one goes past, game over, nothing for the goalies to show for it?

Obviously an extreme extreme example, but situations like that are frequent. The goalies are in all game making the stops, and face every shooter in the shootout on a breakaway, I think they deserve the W.

It would be nice to see some sort of reward for players too or something, but you can't count the goals because it's not really a game-like situation to have such an easy chance to score. While the goalies don't get credit for saves either, and it doesn't affect their SV%/GAA because it's not at all like a real game.

This is kind of a jumbled argument, but basically I think the system works as is, and the goalies should certainly get the W for winning in the shootout.
Imagine they did count the goals?

It would change so many players careers, GM's would go out looking for the topnotch shootout guys, some players would go from 15 goal season to potentially 20+ (which doesn't sound like much, but is a huge factor when talking contracts). On the other hand it would also just be yet another way to get managers to fork over the money, as if these athletes aren't making enough money as it is.

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