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Goalie Influence..

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:18 PM
  #1
ozzie
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Goalie Influence..

People argue that while Patrick Roy clearly didn't invent the Butterfly style of goal tending he made it popular. Roy's influence across the province of Quebec and eventually the rest of Canada in regards to young goalies is probably second to none.

He influenced a generation of goalies that we still see today. In the early 90's we still had goalies that played stand-up like Kirk Mclean, hybrid styles like Belfour and Broduer, arcobatic like Richter and Joseph and the swim from Hasek (kidding).

As the 90's went a long it become clear that most goalies coming in to the league were butterfly style goalies. Those who don't play butterfly are extremely rare.

Now we've had over a decade of Brodeur. He uses the butterfly at times combined with his stand-up style. Infact Brodeur's hybrid style uses several different aspects of goalie styles (even more so then Belfour). He handles the puck like no one else. He influenced young goalies and other goalies in the league to improve their puck handling. The rules were changed partially due to Brodeur and the Devils. Brodeur played 70+ games and was a work horse. More goalies followed in this trend we still see it today.

With Brodeur becoming the all time leader in wins, his career still not over will he create a new trend of goalies?

Will we see more goalies like Brodeur, who play a stand-up hybrid style? or are goalies still being taught almost exclusively the butterfly?

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03-16-2009, 10:24 PM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozzie View Post
People argue that while Patrick Roy clearly didn't invent the Butterfly style of goal tending he made it popular. Roy's influence across the province of Quebec and eventually the rest of Canada in regards to young goalies is probably second to none.

He influenced a generation of goalies that we still see today. In the early 90's we still had goalies that played stand-up like Kirk Mclean, hybrid styles like Belfour and Broduer, arcobatic like Richter and Joseph and the swim from Hasek (kidding).

As the 90's went a long it become clear that most goalies coming in to the league were butterfly style goalies. Those who don't play butterfly are extremely rare.

Now we've had over a decade of Brodeur. He uses the butterfly at times combined with his stand-up style. Infact Brodeur's hybrid style uses several different aspects of goalie styles (even more so then Belfour). He handles the puck like no one else. He influenced young goalies and other goalies in the league to improve their puck handling. The rules were changed partially due to Brodeur and the Devils. Brodeur played 70+ games and was a work horse. More goalies followed in this trend we still see it today.

With Brodeur becoming the all time leader in wins, his career still not over will he create a new trend of goalies?

Will we see more goalies like Brodeur, who play a stand-up hybrid style? or are goalies still being taught almost exclusively the butterfly?
Come on, you aren't kidding. "The swim" is the best description I've seen yet of Hasek's style.

I'm under the impression that the butterfly is still the dominant method being taught - it really is the best way to play the percentages, so long as oversized pads are allowed. The reason I mention oversize pads is that they completely remove the 5-hole from a perfect butterfly.

I hope we see more goalies using a hybrid style. It's sure a lot more exciting than the robot butterfly goalies we see everywhere now. Though not as exciting as "the swim."


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-16-2009 at 10:30 PM.
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Old
03-16-2009, 11:44 PM
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Brodeur is proof that goalies don't need the huge, ridiculous looking leg pads.

The competition committee should be suggesting that there be limits on the length of those pads.

If Brodeur can wear the small ones, and rarely get hurt, then it proves that anyone and all should be wearing them.

The extra long pads take away the area between the armpit and the hip when the goalies go down on one knee, thus taking away the "6 hole" or whatever you'd like to call it.

It's so stupid how they allow this stupid equipment get into the game.

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03-17-2009, 12:00 AM
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gazoo the current plan seems to be expect proportional goalie equipment in the near future.(as in probably 2-3 years)

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03-17-2009, 08:52 AM
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Everytime I see certain goalies, I just can't help but look at the extra padding above the knee. Now Brodeur has less then most, overall his equipment is smaller then most. I think his equipment is still larger then it used to be.

The pads these days seem to be being designed for butterfly goalies. That extra padding as people say allows goalies to take away the 5'hole. Which really should not be the case.

I think current padding allows average butter fly goalies to lessen the gap and appear to be elite goalies. I think very few goalies could wear Brodeur's gear and play butter fly as well as they do now. Goalies like Roy could obviously do it. Not sure who in the league currently could continue to shine.

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03-17-2009, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgazoo View Post
Brodeur is proof that goalies don't need the huge, ridiculous looking leg pads.

The competition committee should be suggesting that there be limits on the length of those pads.

If Brodeur can wear the small ones, and rarely get hurt, then it proves that anyone and all should be wearing them.

The extra long pads take away the area between the armpit and the hip when the goalies go down on one knee, thus taking away the "6 hole" or whatever you'd like to call it.

It's so stupid how they allow this stupid equipment get into the game.
Or a chest protector either, they were interviewing him on RDS yesterday, and that thing looks like it's 20 years old.

The interviewer asked him wether it hurt when he stopped pucks sometimes, his answer: "Yeah, it hurts, but if it hurts it means that I've stopped it, so that feels good I guess."

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03-17-2009, 04:58 PM
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Cherry was saying that on Coach's Corner the other day. Yeah I don't know why Brodeur's style isnt copied more often. He has 551 wins for a reason. Ever notice how much quicker Brodeur moves in the net compared to other goalies? He's almost 37 for crying out loud! The butterfly is effective, but it's not fool proof. Sometimes it exposes a goalie up high and other times it doesnt allow the goalie to play on reflexes.

BTW Glenn Hall started the butterfly technically. Esposito was good at it as well, but yeah Roy popularized it

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03-17-2009, 06:54 PM
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Thats one of my points with playing some sort of hybrid style. Surely it most improve the longeivity of ones career in net. Butter fly is extremely difficult on the lower parts of the body.

Brodeur seems to be much quicker then most goalies. 1 of the reasons he can play the puck so well. Watching Fluery atm who is considered a good puck handler, he seems so slow. The way he shuffles from side to side.

But nothing against the butter fly as a style. I just hope Brodeur can inspire a new generation of goalies.

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03-17-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Cherry was saying that on Coach's Corner the other day. Yeah I don't know why Brodeur's style isnt copied more often. He has 551 wins for a reason. Ever notice how much quicker Brodeur moves in the net compared to other goalies? He's almost 37 for crying out loud! The butterfly is effective, but it's not fool proof. Sometimes it exposes a goalie up high and other times it doesnt allow the goalie to play on reflexes.

BTW Glenn Hall started the butterfly technically. Esposito was good at it as well, but yeah Roy popularized it
The reason Brodeur's style isn't copied more often is because in theory it doesn't work that well. Most goalies would not be succesfull at it (there's a reason the stand-up and hybrid goalies are almost extinct and the butterfly has replaced it, and that reason is not simply large equipment).

Brodeur is an amazing talent who has to have among the best reflexes among in NHL history. It's much like how Hasek's style can not be copied. Both Brodeur and Hasek had perfect positional timing, agility, and reflexes far better than other NHL goalies. To make saves in Brodeur's style, a goalie has to time the movements exactly, you have to make the save instead of simply get in position to stop the puck.

As for the butterfly style's origins, I believe Roy was the first to strap his pads loosely so the pads would flare out when he went down.


Last edited by Hedberg: 03-17-2009 at 08:58 PM.
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03-17-2009, 09:01 PM
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Having played and trained as a goalie for the last decade or so, I feel as if can can provide some reasonable insight into the discussion about Brodeur's style and about modern equipment.

Regardless of Brodeur's success, his hybrid style of play is not something that will be taught to future goalies because it is not the most efficient way to stop pucks. Modern goaltending is about reducing holes and minimizing the reaching and excessive movements that take up time. Adjustments are constantly being made to what is taught, but these adjustments typically involve glove positioning and minor changes to lateral movement techniques. Brodeur, in fact, uses the same sort of lateral movement techniques that are taught to modern goalies. Also, Brodeur does not move faster than everyone else. He is better at anticipating the play and better at stopping pucks as he is coming across the crease than anyone. But he does not have some sort of super-human, lightning-quick reactions.

Just because a style works for one person, does not mean it will work for anyone else. Hasek had perhaps the best stretch of individual success that any goalie has ever had in the NHL, but his style is certainly not something that will be taught any time soon.

Also, contrary to popular belief, equipment size is not the main reason for the changing style of goaltending. Patrick Roy started using a more modern style back in the 1980s, before goalie equipment got out of hand. No doubt, his style changed over the course of his career, but the basis of it remained more or less the same. Probably the main reason for the rapid change in goaltending style is that training has become significantly more available to goaltenders at all levels, so they no longer have to make up their own style. Goalie coaches have picked up on things that make it easier to stop pucks, and typically teach the same moves because those are the ones that work the best.

As for the equipment itself, the size is not what makes the modern goaltending style possible. The quality of equipment has had a much greater effect. As the previous poster mentioned, goalies now strap up their pads loosely so that they will roll over when the goalies go down into a butterfly. New pads facilitate this greatly, not because of their size, but because of how their square shape causes the pads to almost roll onto their sides automatically as goalies go down. Leg pads, and all pads for that matter, are much lighter than they used to be because lighter materials are now used to make them.

Chest protectors are certainly oversized in todays game and should be reduced. But still, the size is not the main reason for the changing style. Somewhere along the line, somebody figured out that taking shots in the chest or moving an elbow by about 4 inches was more efficient than moving a glove 12 inches.

But anyway, no matter how successful Brodeur is, the style of goaltending will not change because of him. There are simply more efficient ways to stop the puck. The only way that I could see goaltending style changing significantly is if the dimensions of the nets were increased. Wider nets would force goalies to use half-butterflys more often to reach for pucks. Taller nets would bring back somewhat of a stand-up style, but I don't think the league wants to encourage players to shoot pucks 100 mph at head height.

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03-17-2009, 09:17 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
Having played and trained as a goalie for the last decade or so, I feel as if can can provide some reasonable insight into the discussion about Brodeur's style and about modern equipment.

Regardless of Brodeur's success, his hybrid style of play is not something that will be taught to future goalies because it is not the most efficient way to stop pucks. Modern goaltending is about reducing holes and minimizing the reaching and excessive movements that take up time. Adjustments are constantly being made to what is taught, but these adjustments typically involve glove positioning and minor changes to lateral movement techniques. Brodeur, in fact, uses the same sort of lateral movement techniques that are taught to modern goalies. Also, Brodeur does not move faster than everyone else. He is better at anticipating the play and better at stopping pucks as he is coming across the crease than anyone. But he does not have some sort of super-human, lightning-quick reactions.

Just because a style works for one person, does not mean it will work for anyone else. Hasek had perhaps the best stretch of individual success that any goalie has ever had in the NHL, but his style is certainly not something that will be taught any time soon.

Also, contrary to popular belief, equipment size is not the main reason for the changing style of goaltending. Patrick Roy started using a more modern style back in the 1980s, before goalie equipment got out of hand. No doubt, his style changed over the course of his career, but the basis of it remained more or less the same. Probably the main reason for the rapid change in goaltending style is that training has become significantly more available to goaltenders at all levels, so they no longer have to make up their own style. Goalie coaches have picked up on things that make it easier to stop pucks, and typically teach the same moves because those are the ones that work the best.

As for the equipment itself, the size is not what makes the modern goaltending style possible. The quality of equipment has had a much greater effect. As the previous poster mentioned, goalies now strap up their pads loosely so that they will roll over when the goalies go down into a butterfly. New pads facilitate this greatly, not because of their size, but because of how their square shape causes the pads to almost roll onto their sides automatically as goalies go down. Leg pads, and all pads for that matter, are much lighter than they used to be because lighter materials are now used to make them.

Chest protectors are certainly oversized in todays game and should be reduced. But still, the size is not the main reason for the changing style. Somewhere along the line, somebody figured out that taking shots in the chest or moving an elbow by about 4 inches was more efficient than moving a glove 12 inches.

But anyway, no matter how successful Brodeur is, the style of goaltending will not change because of him. There are simply more efficient ways to stop the puck. The only way that I could see goaltending style changing significantly is if the dimensions of the nets were increased. Wider nets would force goalies to use half-butterflys more often to reach for pucks. Taller nets would bring back somewhat of a stand-up style, but I don't think the league wants to encourage players to shoot pucks 100 mph at head height.
fantastic post. thank you.

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03-18-2009, 07:44 AM
  #12
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Yes great post. Very interesting read.

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03-18-2009, 02:20 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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here's an interesting story in SI

headline: "The butterfly is ravaging goalies"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ies/index.html

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03-18-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
here's an interesting story in SI

headline: "The butterfly is ravaging goalies"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ies/index.html
Great article. Thanks for posting it.

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Old
03-18-2009, 05:40 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by ozzie View Post
Thats one of my points with playing some sort of hybrid style. Surely it most improve the longeivity of ones career in net. Butter fly is extremely difficult on the lower parts of the body.

Brodeur seems to be much quicker then most goalies. 1 of the reasons he can play the puck so well. Watching Fluery atm who is considered a good puck handler, he seems so slow. The way he shuffles from side to side.

But nothing against the butter fly as a style. I just hope Brodeur can inspire a new generation of goalies.
Fleury isn't a good puck handler.

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